3ct old-mine/ antique cushion for USD15k?

[Phoenix]

Hello folks,

I came across this little darling whilst visiting a jewellery show today. I was just at a coloured-stone stall and saw her sitting in a little corner, amongst all these sapphires, spinels etc.... Anyhow, I asked to see her; and apparently the vendor, who normally deals in coloured-stones, came across her in the Philippines whilst on a trip there and just "happened to snap her up"!

She looks indeed old , but is quite a lovely little darling. I don't know if she'd be classified as old-mine or antique cushion (perhaps some experts can chime in?). I estimate her colour to be O-P or even Q-R (but of course I am no gemologist lol) . She has these little "bites" on the girdle and a couple of naturals; she also has some very light scratches on the table; and a tiny black carbon spot nearer to the centre; all of which are only discernible upon louping. The culet I'd say is medium (or maybe large - not sure). The vendor popped her on the scale and she weighed in at 3.08ct. The kozibe (sp?) effect is quite obvious and lovely.

I enquired about re-polishing and he said that a light polishing may leave her above the 3ct mark, but he couldn't be certain.

Initial negotiation seems to indicate a pricing of about USD15k, though I think he might possibly go down a bit more.

I was wondering:

1) what pricing would you place on such a stone, assuming my estimation of colouring (somewhere between O to R) is correct? Is USD15k too low or too high?

2) based on my description, can anyone venture a guess as to whether a re-polishing would leave the stone at or above 3ct? I know this is a harder Q to answer and most likely, someone would need to examine the stone closely in person in order to make this determination. I thought I'd throw this Q out there anyway!

Would love to hear from you old-cut lovers.

PS. I could of course go back and take more pics. Pls let me know what you'd like to see. Perhaps some close-ups?

 

[SB621]

Phoenix,


It is hard to give pricing because we really arent' sure on specs. From what it sounds like it is probably closer to Q/R and in the SI1-2/ I1 range. I'm not sure if I'm on point with pricing but I would say 15k USD is too high. Any chance the seller would get a GIA report on the diamond? I really hesitate to put out any idea of pricing because this is all based on assumptions on what color and clarity could be.

If you are serious about a repolish I know Singlestone and Jewels by Erica Grace both offer those services.

 

[missymoo]

What a little cutie!!! If it's really O-R by GIA standards...I'd say talk him down on the $$$$. Can you get us some more photos, sideways against white paper??

 

[sparks1007]

Man. I live in The Philippines and I NEVER happen upon stuff like this. I'd love to know the vendor's secret.

Sigh.

 

[arkieb1]

Hi, I have a big OEC with a thin and crispy girdle and the only person I would send my stone to for a repolish is Adam at OWD. He has a track record of losing the least weight with these stones which I think is what you are after. Keeping it above the magic 3 carat weight will help preserve its value. Having said that sending it to the US is a huge pain in the backside. The only two people that I could find to potentially ship mine were Malca Almit and Brinks and it was costly and there is the risk of the stone being lost or stolen . In the end I decided to live with the fleabites for now.

Your stone could be a cushion or an Old Mine cut, it could also be a cushion shaped OEC, it's hard to tell from your pics without the proportions of it. My first thought was its' a cushion, but there are both OECs and OMCs that look like this.... Can you take a pic side on so we can see the crown height and the depth of it to have a better idea? If you put the stone against a white piece of paper and take a side on shot we can also see the colour of it as well. The stone will be better than an I1 if you can only see the inclusions with a loupe, probably a SI1 at the very worse and a VS stone at the very best would be my guess without seeing it in person.

 

[Phoenix]

Phoenix,


It is hard to give pricing because we really arent' sure on specs. From what it sounds like it is probably closer to Q/R and in the SI1-2/ I1 range. I'm not sure if I'm on point with pricing but I would say 15k USD is too high. Any chance the seller would get a GIA report on the diamond? I really hesitate to put out any idea of pricing because this is all based on assumptions on what color and clarity could be.

If you are serious about a repolish I know Singlestone and Jewels by Erica Grace both offer those services.

The stone is definitely warmer, but I'd say more towards "vanilla" rather than "warm or buttery" (ha ha, now I know what these terms mean when posters talk about them ). The lighting wasn't great so it was hard-ish to tell, but she's def not yellow. Clarity-wise, I'd say more Si2 as is but not I1 (no major chips can be seen, but I shall go back and take a more detailed closer inspection).

The vendor normally sells coloured-stones. I don't know if he'd be prepared to send it to GIA without me committing to buy it, or at the very least put down some kind of deposit. But I guess it doesn't hurt to ask.

Great idea about Singlestone and/ or JbEG.

 

[Phoenix]

What a little cutie!!! If it's really O-R by GIA standards...I'd say talk him down on the $$$$. Can you get us some more photos, sideways against white paper??

She really is a cutie!

I'll see if I can talk him down on pricing.

I will go back and take some more photos against white paper. Will have to bring some myself, lol.

 

[Phoenix]

Man. I live in The Philippines and I NEVER happen upon stuff like this. I'd love to know the vendor's secret.

Sigh.

Lol, he apparently just "happened upon it", he wasn't even looking. He was saying that the Spanish may have brought some with them when they went there. And some may have been owned by the royal family. I must say I wasn't aware there was a monarchy in the Philippines, ha ha...you learn something new everyday!

 

[Phoenix]

Hi, I have a big OEC with a thin and crispy girdle and the only person I would send my stone to for a repolish is Adam at OWD. He has a track record of losing the least weight with these stones which I think is what you are after. Keeping it above the magic 3 carat weight will help preserve its value. Having said that sending it to the US is a huge pain in the backside. The only two people that I could find to potentially ship mine were Malca Almit and Brinks and it was costly and there is the risk of the stone being lost or stolen . In the end I decided to live with the fleabites for now.

Your stone could be a cushion or an Old Mine cut, it could also be a cushion shaped OEC, it's hard to tell from your pics without the proportions of it. My first thought was its' a cushion, but there are both OECs and OMCs that look like this.... Can you take a pic side on so we can see the crown height and the depth of it to have a better idea? If you put the stone against a white piece of paper and take a side on shot we can also see the colour of it as well. The stone will be better than an I1 if you can only see the inclusions with a loupe, probably a SI1 at the very worse and a VS stone at the very best would be my guess without seeing it in person.

You have a big OEC? I didn't even know! I must look up your OEC now....sounds lovely.

I'd have no choice but to send her by MA or Brinks, either to GIA in Hong Kong and/ or to OWD. For all my shipments, I can't get insurance for goods-in-transit, so MA or Brinks it has to be. It IS def costly but there's no other choice for me unfortunately. They also provide insurance which is included in their charges, isn't that right? I know it'd be a real PITA if it was lost or stolen, but what else to do (?!).

Ha ha, as an long term PS'er, I am sure I could've done better, picture-wise. I shall go back and take those photos.

My guess is that, the stone as is, is prob an SI2, unless there's a major chip which I didn't see this time around. Potentially, if these are cleaned up, the stone may end up as an Si1, would be my guess. I doubt if it'd be graded a VS2, the reason being the black carbon spot could only be seen by me with a loupe but a more eagle-eyed person might be able to see it without the aid of a loupe; my eyesight is not great ha ha...

ETA: I can't seem to find a thread on your big OEC. Did you ever post about it? I'd love to learn more about it, if you'd like to share.

 

[arkieb1]

Hi, I have a big OEC with a thin and crispy girdle and the only person I would send my stone to for a repolish is Adam at OWD. He has a track record of losing the least weight with these stones which I think is what you are after. Keeping it above the magic 3 carat weight will help preserve its value. Having said that sending it to the US is a huge pain in the backside. The only two people that I could find to potentially ship mine were Malca Almit and Brinks and it was costly and there is the risk of the stone being lost or stolen . In the end I decided to live with the fleabites for now.

Your stone could be a cushion or an Old Mine cut, it could also be a cushion shaped OEC, it's hard to tell from your pics without the proportions of it. My first thought was its' a cushion, but there are both OECs and OMCs that look like this.... Can you take a pic side on so we can see the crown height and the depth of it to have a better idea? If you put the stone against a white piece of paper and take a side on shot we can also see the colour of it as well. The stone will be better than an I1 if you can only see the inclusions with a loupe, probably a SI1 at the very worse and a VS stone at the very best would be my guess without seeing it in person.

You have a big OEC? I didn't even know! I must look up your OEC now....sounds lovely.

I'd have no choice but to send her by MA or Brinks, either to GIA in Hong Kong and/ or to OWD. For all my shipments, I can't get insurance for goods-in-transit, so MA or Brinks it has to be. It IS def costly but there's no other choice for me unfortunately. They also provide insurance which is included in their charges, isn't that right? I know it'd be a real PITA if it was lost or stolen, but what else to do (?!).

Ha ha, as an long term PS'er, I am sure I could've done better, picture-wise. I shall go back and take those photos.

Hi Phoenix, no I have had it a few months and had this dilemma about what to do with it because I am in Australia. I tried to talk Victor into making a setting for it for me but he won't without the stone. It's 5.34 carats L VS2. My husband is flipping out about me sending it anywhere after all the drama with the pear which I have just sold...

MA and Brinks are the only two companies I can find out of Australia that will ship AND insure a diamond that is of that size and value for me. FedEx won't insure out of here, no idea about where you live.



My guess is that, the stone as is, is prob an SI2, unless there's a major chip which I didn't see this time around. Potentially, if these are cleaned up, the stone may end up as an Si1, would be my guess. I doubt if it'd be graded a VS2, the reason being the black carbon spot could only be seen by me with a loupe but a more eagle-eyed person might be able to see it without the aid of a loupe; my eyesight is not great ha ha...

ETA: I can't seem to find a thread on your big OEC. Did you ever post about it? I'd love to learn more about it, if you'd like to share.

Hi Phoenix, no I have had it a few months and had this dilemma about what to do with it because I am in Australia. I tried to talk Victor into making a setting for it for me but he won't without the stone. It's 5.34 carats L VS2, irregular slightly cushion shaped OEC so people like VC won't make a setting without it because its not uniformly round. My husband is flipping out about me sending it anywhere after all the drama with Amethyst's pear which I have just sold...

MA and Brinks are the only two companies I can find out of Australia that will ship AND insure a diamond that is of that size and value for me. FedEx won't insure out of here, no idea about where you live.

Do you have a loupe? I am totally bad at taking pics of mine as well. Try holding the loupe up to the camera on your Iphone and hey presto you should be able to take magnified pics of the stone.

I rang and spoke to Adam on the phone, from OWD, lovely guy, he got what I wanted to do with the girdle and overall with mine immediately ie fix the girdle, give it a good polish without destroying the soul and character of the old girl... He does a lot of repolishing and recutting of Old Stones and is supposed to be one of the best at it. He is also the person that overall loses the least amount of carat weight, which for me is important because the stone I have is potentially worth less if it came back under 5 carats.

I talked to a couple of cutters here in Australia as well, but came to the conclusion because they do not work with old cuts at all they would probably massacre my stone and it wasn't worth the effort.

So I am thinking of buying a temporary or permanent setting for now, wearing it and if one day I get to New York I will take it with me and get Adam to work his magic then...

 

[Phoenix]

Hi Phoenix, no I have had it a few months and had this dilemma about what to do with it because I am in Australia. I tried to talk Victor into making a setting for it for me but he won't without the stone. It's 5.34 carats L VS2, irregular slightly cushion shaped OEC so people like VC won't make a setting without it because its not uniformly round. My husband is flipping out about me sending it anywhere after all the drama with Amethyst's pear which I have just sold...

MA and Brinks are the only two companies I can find out of Australia that will ship AND insure a diamond that is of that size and value for me. FedEx won't insure out of here, no idea about where you live.

Do you have a loupe? I am totally bad at taking pics of mine as well. Try holding the loupe up to the camera on your Iphone and hey presto you should be able to take magnified pics of the stone.

I rang and spoke to Adam on the phone, from OWD, lovely guy, he got what I wanted to do with the girdle and overall with mine immediately ie fix the girdle, give it a good polish without destroying the soul and character of the old girl... He does a lot of repolishing and recutting of Old Stones and is supposed to be one of the best at it. He is also the person that overall loses the least amount of carat weight, which for me is important because the stone I have is potentially worth less if it came back under 5 carats.

I talked to a couple of cutters here in Australia as well, but came to the conclusion because they do not work with old cuts at all they would probably massacre my stone and it wasn't worth the effort.

So I am thinking of buying a temporary or permanent setting for now, wearing it and if one day I get to New York I will take it with me and get Adam to work his magic then...

Hello arkieb1,

I am so silly lol. Of course you posted about your large OEC on your lemony thread. Sorry again about the drama (though I don't know the full story). Yes, living in this part of the world (I am not too far from you), MA and Brinks are really the only two options. FedEx is def out. I wouldn't mind sending the stone (if I got her) to the US to have her re-polished b/c I'd want to have someone there to set her, most likely LM or VC. I totally understand how Victor would be reluctant to set your stone without having it with him; there may be nuances of your stone for which the custom setting would have to tailor for, I would think. I know it's rather frustrating having to wait but really in the end, it'd be worthwhile. And I think you know this.

I agree that Adam would be the go-to person. I remember seeing a thread about him that recut an old-cut with so little weight loss and the result was just amazing. I absolutely agree with keeping the weight above 5ct.

Can't wait to see this magnificent OEC of yours when you'd like to share pics. Good luck with the setting.

I'll try and take better pics of this 3ct. Stay tuned...

 

[misskittycat]

I'm no expert but this comparable stone from OWD would suggest that it is too high a price, especially uncerted:

http://www.oldworlddiamonds.com/detail.php?ID=491&SHAPE=OM

It's a Q, marginally bigger carat weight (but negligible at this size) and a VS1 for $12,600. I couldn't find anot ACs or OECs in that colour/carat/clarity range combo.

 

[Phoenix]

I'm no expert but this comparable stone from OWD would suggest that it is too high a price, especially uncerted:

http://www.oldworlddiamonds.com/detail.php?ID=491&SHAPE=OM

It's a Q, marginally bigger carat weight (but negligible at this size) and a VS1 for $12,600. I couldn't find anot ACs or OECs in that colour/carat/clarity range combo.

Well found, misskittycat! That helps.

I will find out how low this guy is willing to go to. I'd only be interested if it's a "deal".

 

[ericad]

Beautiful stone! There's really no way to accurately estimate fair price unless you have the stone certed or independently appraised. Especially in the cape colors, there's such a variance in human "perception" of color that we've even seen results from GIA that leave us scratching our heads sometimes.

We've bought cape stones, thinking they're O/P/Q range, and GIA graded them an M (has happened twice), and the reverse has happened as well, so even with all of our experience looking at color, sometimes we're a bit off in our own perceptions too. There's a significant difference in price between a GIA M and a GIA Q. There could also be a sizable difference between a GIA Q, an EGL Q and an uncerted Q (which could be anything within several grades in either direction).

It does seem to have a beautiful shape and nice faceting - what are your options for certification or appraisal?

As for a repolish, I only recommend it if the faceting looks abraded or there is girdle damage. Otherwise, it's not worth the risk. If she's in good shape, I say leave the old girl alone.

 

[Phoenix]

Re:

Beautiful stone! There's really no way to accurately estimate fair price unless you have the stone certed or independently appraised. Especially in the cape colors, there's such a variance in human "perception" of color that we've even seen results from GIA that leave us scratching our heads sometimes.

We've bought cape stones, thinking they're O/P/Q range, and GIA graded them an M (has happened twice), and the reverse has happened as well, so even with all of our experience looking at color, sometimes we're a bit off in our own perceptions too. There's a significant difference in price between a GIA M and a GIA Q. There could also be a sizable difference between a GIA Q, an EGL Q and an uncerted Q (which could be anything within several grades in either direction).

It does seem to have a beautiful shape and nice faceting - what are your options for certification or appraisal?

As for a repolish, I only recommend it if the faceting looks abraded or there is girdle damage. Otherwise, it's not worth the risk. If she's in good shape, I say leave the old girl alone.

Erica, thank you for chiming in.

I know there's a risk of my eyes (not so experienced in old-cut diamonds or lower coloured ones) not seeing or rather not interpreting the colour range correctly. I was thinking, should I purchase the diamond, of sending her to GIA in Hong Kong. Local appraisals are not really worth much, especially with old-cut diamonds, as most of them probably haven't seen too many of these.

She is a little beaut, isn't she? Very soft and feminine...

She has some very light, small scratches on the table, which might possibly bother me. There are several very tiny small "bites" on the girdle. I am going back to see if there's any major chip....I don't remember seeing any the first time round. Ha ha, I know what you're saying about leaving the old girl alone, there is a certain charm with this kind of really old antique diamonds...I would LOVE to know her history.

 

[misskittycat]

Re:

Beautiful stone! There's really no way to accurately estimate fair price unless you have the stone certed or independently appraised. Especially in the cape colors, there's such a variance in human "perception" of color that we've even seen results from GIA that leave us scratching our heads sometimes.

We've bought cape stones, thinking they're O/P/Q range, and GIA graded them an M (has happened twice), and the reverse has happened as well, so even with all of our experience looking at color, sometimes we're a bit off in our own perceptions too. There's a significant difference in price between a GIA M and a GIA Q. There could also be a sizable difference between a GIA Q, an EGL Q and an uncerted Q (which could be anything within several grades in either direction).

It does seem to have a beautiful shape and nice faceting - what are your options for certification or appraisal?

As for a repolish, I only recommend it if the faceting looks abraded or there is girdle damage. Otherwise, it's not worth the risk. If she's in good shape, I say leave the old girl alone.

Excellent advice Erica! Ultimately, as the old adage goes, it's worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Having said that, uncerted, unsure of any if the vital stats, it's worth to you what you are willing to pay, knowing so little about it.

I am eager to hear what your negotiating prowes will net you!