Did you get a flu shot this year?

[msop04]

That's what I advise my daughters to do with their baby.

...and that's perfectly fine, as long they are vaccinated!

 

[msop04]

As for vaccines while I am generally pro vaccination I don't think one size fits all. As with many issues the individual has to weigh the pros and cons and decide what is best for them. Though one thing I will add there are certain diseases where when we choose not to get vaccinated can affect the most helpless among us (infants and the elderly) so that is something to be cognizant of while evaluating what is the best choice.

100% with you, @missy

 

[msop04]

You're right, and I really mean that. I am truly regretful that I did not realize first that full access was not available. My bad. Only someone with a death wish would do something like that.

I will not address anything else, as it would be pointless. What truths are ever presented, by me or others, is never recognized.

It's okay, @Ellen... I know that your feelings come from a place of sincere concern, and I can understand that view. This topic is emotional and impacts so many... We can simply agree to disagree on this. I do wish I had access to the study, because I'd genuinely like to read it for myself, in hopes of learning something new. Things change and discoveries (along with new data) are brought to light all the time... as @missy said, we can only do our due diligence.

 

[luv2sparkle]

The problem, to me, is that a good many people feel that the government cannot be trusted to recommend vaccine or medications to us. Too many FDA approved medications have later been found to be extremely dangerous. How many times does that happen before we tap out? Couple that with the money and lobbying attached to getting drugs to be approved and the amount of money to be made from them, and much of the industry appears very corrupt. I wish I could feel confident that vaccines or medications are for the health of the population and not for money but I cannot.

 

[Ellen]

This is difficult subject because there are shades of gray. I see both points of view and in fact struggled with the decision to get a flu vaccination this year.
Both viewpoints have merit and contain truths.

Yes, Mercury is harmful. Yes, preservatives can be harmful. Yes, I would never blindly follow any physician's advice. We are always our own best advocate and the best advocate for our children. We must do our due diligence. And I for one appreciate others bringing up different points of view with info and studies backing those points of view.

I am a science person with a medical background so I often fall on the side of conventional medicine but if there is one thing I learned these past few years it is conventional medicine is fallible and often wrong and can harm those it is trying to help. Sticking to outdated facts that no longer apply and not being open to new info showing new truths. Instead taking the best from conventional medicine and from eastern/holistic medicine is often the way to go.

I applaud those of you here who are open to learning from both sides because there is truth on both sides.
And I appreciate all those posting here despite it being difficult and not having the "popular" opinion. @Ellen I always appreciate your posts even if I may not always completely agree with them. I always appreciate you and what you have to share.

As for vaccines while I am generally pro vaccination I don't think one size fits all. As with many issues the individual has to weigh the pros and cons and decide what is best for them. Though one thing I will add there are certain diseases where when we choose not to get vaccinated can affect the most helpless among us (infants and the elderly) so that is something to be cognizant of while evaluating what is the best choice.

Thank you Missy.

 

[Ellen]

It's okay, @Ellen... I know that your feelings come from a place of sincere concern, and I can understand that view. This topic is emotional and impacts so many... We can simply agree to disagree on this. I do wish I had access to the study, because I'd genuinely like to read it for myself, in hopes of learning something new. Things change and discoveries (along with new data) are brought to light all the time... as @missy said, we can only do our due diligence.

Thank you. They do, and I would like to elaborate briefly. I want to help you understand where I really come from.

I gave birth to 4 boys. I have three living. I lost my first son as an infant. I now highly suspect vaccines played a role. I don't wish to discuss the details, it doesn't matter now, IN MY CASE. I can't bring him back. My other three sons all have issues. Mental, emotional, (think mild Aspergers) and physical, all to different varying degrees. I am convinced they are due to vaccines.

As I said in an earlier post, giving humans vaccines is playing russian roulette with their health. Every single persons make up is different, and they will respond differently to different substances. One does not need a degree to understand this. Just a course in A&P, which I took years ago, will clue one in on how delicately balanced the human body is. But it's not super human, it can only take so much assault, and then it starts having issues.

I wish I had had someone like me around all those many years ago when my kids were little and I had to decide to vaccinate. I ignorantly, blindly, naively trusted the "science" behind the vaccines, and I trusted my doctor. Why would I ever suspect this would hurt my kid? They were to help, to protect, to keep them healthy.

MS, you CANNOT know how it feels to know that you as a parent had something to do with the death, and ill health of your children. It's heartbreaking. You can't take it back, there are no do overs. And I will have to live with that, and the repercussions, for the rest of my life....

So I am now trying to make people aware that there are flaws in this system. Major ones, that want to be hidden. I want people to have more than, "It's ok, they're good for you, they won't hurt you", to go on in deciding about vaccines.

So in thinking about all this, I'd like to ask you some vaccine related questions if you're up to it, when I have time.

And thank you again for understanding.

 

[missy]

@Ellen I am so sorry for your loss. (((Hugs))).

 

[Austina]

I’m so sorry @Ellen I can’t even begin to imagine your heartache.

 

[Ellen]

I would like to suggest something. I mentioned in an earlier post to MSOP that when I or others have offered real truths, they are not recognized, or dismissed. It would be nice for all of us if that would stop. Case in point. Long ago I was posting to someone about how the gut plays a huge role in the immune system. I mentioned that a condition called leaky gut can cause/lead to many different health problems (more emphasis is now on autoimmune diseases). The gal was like, is that really a thing? To which ksinger came in immediately and said no it's not a thing, etc., etc. Now, I realize not everybody knows every thing. And I realize there are those who put no stock in eating well as a defense against disease, or all that that entails. Some put no stock in anything but drugs. That doesn't mean that what I said isn't true. The fact of the matter is, there IS such a condition. It's called leaky gut for short. But it's medical term is gastrointestinal or intestinal permeability. It's real, it exists. And I would think it wise to at least look something up before absolutely dismissing it. That does no one any favors.

One need only do a cursory search to find information on this, and the remarkable results from cleaning up ones diet. i.e. No sugar, no white flower, no processed foods, incorporation of fresh foods, etc..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1856434/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4253991/

 

[YadaYadaYada]

@Ellen I just wanted to say that I'm so sorry for the loss of your son.

 

[missy]

I would like to suggest something. I mentioned in an earlier post to MSOP that when I or others have offered real truths, they are not recognized, or dismissed. It would be nice for all of us if that would stop. Case in point. Long ago I was posting to someone about how the gut plays a huge role in the immune system. I mentioned that a condition called leaky gut can cause/lead to many different health problems (more emphasis is now on autoimmune diseases). The gal was like, is that really a thing? To which ksinger came in immediately and said no it's not a thing, etc., etc. Now, I realize not everybody knows every thing. And I realize there are those who put no stock in eating well as a defense against disease, or all that that entails. Some put no stock in anything but drugs. That doesn't mean that what I said isn't true. The fact of the matter is, there IS such a condition. It's called leaky gut for short. But it's medical term is gastrointestinal or intestinal permeability. It's real, it exists. And I would think it wise to at least look something up before absolutely dismissing it. That does no one any favors.

One need only do a cursory search to find information on this, and the remarkable results from cleaning up ones diet. i.e. No sugar, no white flower, no processed foods, incorporation of fresh foods, etc..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1856434/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4253991/

Ellen excellent points. And of course we realize now that yes the gut plays a huge role in health and specifically autoimmune diseases. Leaky gut (or whatever the medical community wants to call it) is real. And causes a myriad of health issues.

Western medicine has a long way to go to catch up with the more holistic approach and no doubt we will all benefit when both are taken into account. Eating right, exercising, sleeping well, decreasing bad stress while managing good stress and other savvy life style choices make a difference. We can’t control everything but yes we can perhaps improve our health with smart choices.

Medicine is ever changing and as @msop04 pointed out we must take CE to keep up with new findings and info. Healthcare, medicine, medication, lifestyle choices all not static. It’s an ever moving changing living thing albeit at times moving very slowly. Healthcare professionals are sometimes resistant to change but it is up to us to advocate for ourselves and do the best we can with out doctors. We are a team managing our healthcare vs the outdated standard the doctor knows all and we do exactly what they instruct us to. No, we have to work together for our maximum benefit.

The other side of the coin is we cannot blindly trust the more holistically bent healthcare professionals either.
It seems many of them are selling something and in my mind that might compromise their credibility. Whether that’s just my perception or somewhat rooted in fact depends. But it’s concerning because it does seem that many of the non conventional physicians I’ve seen sell many products and make a pretty profit. I’m not against them making a healthy living but to the degree I’ve personally experienced this it feels obscene at times.

We all have to do our due diligence as best we can. And you’re so right. Not everyone knows everything. In fact I’d go as far as saying no one knows everything. We all have much to learn.

 

[Ellen]

Ellen excellent points. And of course we realize now that yes the gut plays a huge role in health and specifically autoimmune diseases. Leaky gut (or whatever the medical community wants to call it) is real. And causes a myriad of health issues.

Western medicine has a long way to go to catch up with the more holistic approach and no doubt we will all benefit when both are taken into account. Eating right, exercising, sleeping well, decreasing bad stress while managing good stress and other savvy life style choices make a difference. We can’t control everything but yes we can perhaps improve our health with smart choices.

Medicine is ever changing and as @msop04 pointed out we must take CE to keep up with new findings and info. Healthcare, medicine, medication, lifestyle choices all not static. It’s an ever moving changing living thing albeit at times moving very slowly. Healthcare professionals are sometimes resistant to change but it is up to us to advocate for ourselves and do the best we can with out doctors. We are a team managing our healthcare vs the outdated standard the doctor knows all and we do exactly what they instruct us to. No, we have to work together for our maximum benefit.

The other side of the coin is we cannot blindly trust the more holistically bent healthcare professionals either.
It seems many of them are selling something and in my mind that might compromise their credibility. Whether that’s just my perception or somewhat rooted in fact depends. But it’s concerning because it does seem that many of the non conventional physicians I’ve seen sell many products and make a pretty profit. I’m not against them making a healthy living but to the degree I’ve personally experienced this it feels obscene at times.

We all have to do our due diligence as best we can. And you’re so right. Not everyone knows everything. In fact I’d go as far as saying no one knows everything. We all have much to learn.

I agree with everything you've said Missy! I would caution us though, and ask that we be careful in criticizing those that sell, say books. Dr. Brownstein has written several. I don't for one minute think he's doing that for the money (and I hardly think he's getting rich off them), but I do think he wrote them to truly help people. I have absolutely no doubt there are hucksters out there, selling in the name of health. But there are also those doctors who are just trying to educate the public.

 

[Calliecake]

@Ellen, I’m so sorry for all you have been through. We can empathize but the reality is few of us know the pain you have been thru and continue to go thru. I am so sorry. Hugs, Callie

 

[AGBF]

You have been through so much, Ellen. I am so sorry.

Deb

 

[Jambalaya]

Cyberhug ((((Ellen))))

 

[Ellen]

I didn't reply to each one of your lovely comments, as my intention was not to make this thread all about me. However, I am touched. And I want to thank all of you sweet ladies.

 

[chrono]

Ellen,
I sympathize with you. Family is very important. That said, are you saying we shouldn't vaccinate because it is too dangerous? I don't want a fight so I won't put up studies and what not. Just would like to hear your opinion.

 

[Ellen]

Ellen,
I sympathize with you. Family is very important. That said, are you saying we shouldn't vaccinate because it is too dangerous? I don't want a fight so I won't put up studies and what not. Just would like to hear your opinion.

No, that's not actually what I said Chrono. This is what I said earlier, " So I am now trying to make people aware that there are flaws in this system. Major ones, that want to be hidden. I want people to have more than, "It's ok, they're good for you, they won't hurt you", to go on in deciding about vaccines." That is what I said, and that is what I am advocating for. I'm not here to fight, I'm here to challenge. And I have no problem with that. More people should do it, it might help change the status quo.

What I want, is for people to THINK. To question, everything. To stop blindly believing what our govt. and the alphabet agencies tell us. Oh wait, or FORCE us to do in some cases. (I thought this was a free country. Nope, not anymore.) I want people to look into ALL (and there is a lot) opposing views on vaccines. And realize much of it is by real, caring doctors, scientist, researchers, vaccine and pharmaceutical whistleblowers.... Who have absolutely nothing to gain (and many to lose bucking the system). Who only see the damage vaccines are doing, and who are also trying to alert the public. Who are all fighting a machine that is so very well entrenched and will fight to the death to protect its vested interests.

I want people to use the good sense God gave them and realize nobody blackmails the government to get full protection from lawsuits for products that can't hurt anybody. (PLEASE!) I want people to look at how many vaccines were given when I was born in 1959, versus how many are given today. I want then to see those numbers go from 5 doses to a staggering 72. Then I want them to research the incredible rise in Autism and other health problems. Then I want them to really think about what they just read. Is it really all just a coincidence? A word that gets tossed around quite a bit btw.

I want them to research how many times the CDC and FDA have been caught lying/manipulating data. How many times drug makers (who work with these agencies closely) have had drugs pulled and been sued for damages after KNOWINGLY keeping seriously dangerous drugs on the market. (that actually killed people) Search Vioxx Exposed and see what comes up as the first link (by Union of Concerned Scientists). Now ask yourself, If they lied about this, what else have they lied about? So "studies" by these people mean nothing to me.

Lastly, I want them to ask themselves, who is lying? Because one group is. It's either the govt. and all those involved (CDC, FDA, Big Pharma), or, it's a much smaller group of concerned citizens, many with damaged children of their own. Many of those doctors themselves, besides scientists and researchers, and just plain old concerned citizens. And I want them to ask themselves, who stands to gain what? (remember, estimated 59 Billion in vaccines alone for 2020)

Then, they can make an informed decision about THEIR child. Which is all I want.


And thank you for your sympathy.

 

[chrono]

Many vaccines are required by government schools before a child can be admitted. What would one's option be then? Assuming homeschooling and private school is off the table? As you wrote, we are forced to in this case.

This is such a difficult subject.

 

[whitewave]

Ellen, hugs. I can’t imagine what it would be like to go through what you did.
===================
Vaccines, like all medicine, are on a risk vs. benefit scale to be discussed and determined by a doctor and the patient.

Vaccines save lives and have revolutionized life expectancy. We now don’t have to have 7 kids knowing a few won’t make it past 3 or 4.

 

[whitewave]

Having said that, I believe vitamin K should be mandatory for all newborns.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Having said that, I believe vitamin K should be mandatory for all newborns.

This is actually the only vaccine my four year old received because he was a c-section baby especially.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Many vaccines are required by government schools before a child can be admitted. What would one's option be then? Assuming homeschooling and private school is off the table? As you wrote, we are forced to in this case.

This is such a difficult subject.

In the U.S. At least, many states have philosophical or religious exemptions you can claim and I believe all states allow a medical exemption but they are very hard to get, the list of conditions approved for a medical exemption is very short.

 

[whitewave]

This is actually the only vaccine my four year old received because he was a c-section baby especially.

Just a small correction—it’s not a vaccine. It’s a vitamin injection, but I know that is what you meant.

 

[YadaYadaYada]

Just a small correction—it’s not a vaccine. It’s a vitamin injection, but I know that is what you meant.

Yes, thank you for catching that!

 

[Ellen]

Many vaccines are required by government schools before a child can be admitted. What would one's option be then? Assuming homeschooling and private school is off the table? As you wrote, we are forced to in this case.

This is such a difficult subject.

I just want to say, though I realize some people work and may not make enough to pay a sitter for their home schooled child, I asked the lady I get milk from about homeschooling requirements as that is what she does. I wondered if there were a certain amount of hours that had to be met, and there is not, in our state anyway. Nobody really checks on them. So for people who work , but could afford a sitter, you can make those "school" hours whatever you want. I live in IL, you would need to check your own state requirements, if there are any.

Here is a link that provides info (and link) to a state by state chart showing the different exemptions. It looks like right now all states have them (2-3), but as mentioned, they are cracking down.
https://www.nvic.org/faqs/vaccine-exemptions.aspx


And here is just the first page that came up in searching for info on how to find doctors that accept patients whose parents don't wish them to be vaccinated. I'm sure there are many other links to that kind of info.
http://www.vaclib.org/basic/health/patientchoicedoctors.htm


And lastly I would say, as a parent I would fight. This is supposed to be a free country. These are YOUR children, not the governments. They are your precious cargo, and they start out life (usually) with a pristine, perfectly working body. No one should have the right to force you to inject heavy metals and other toxic substances into that child. No one should have any right to tell you what you can and can't do with your own child. That should be for you, and you alone to decide.

 

[Ellen]

I went to search for something on YouTube and this just happened to be at the top of the page. So naturally I watched it. I feel for her, you can literally see and feel her emotion and outrage. Interesting point she makes, that she never got the flu, in 20 years... Also interesting that no one believed in the flu shot, at the hospital where she worked. Wish we could have heard the CDC's response. Anyway, thought it was timely and all.

 

[msop04]

Thank you. They do, and I would like to elaborate briefly. I want to help you understand where I really come from.

I gave birth to 4 boys. I have three living. I lost my first son as an infant. I now highly suspect vaccines played a role. I don't wish to discuss the details, it doesn't matter now, IN MY CASE. I can't bring him back. My other three sons all have issues. Mental, emotional, (think mild Aspergers) and physical, all to different varying degrees. I am convinced they are due to vaccines.

As I said in an earlier post, giving humans vaccines is playing russian roulette with their health. Every single persons make up is different, and they will respond differently to different substances. One does not need a degree to understand this. Just a course in A&P, which I took years ago, will clue one in on how delicately balanced the human body is. But it's not super human, it can only take so much assault, and then it starts having issues.

I wish I had had someone like me around all those many years ago when my kids were little and I had to decide to vaccinate. I ignorantly, blindly, naively trusted the "science" behind the vaccines, and I trusted my doctor. Why would I ever suspect this would hurt my kid? They were to help, to protect, to keep them healthy.

MS, you CANNOT know how it feels to know that you as a parent had something to do with the death, and ill health of your children. It's heartbreaking. You can't take it back, there are no do overs. And I will have to live with that, and the repercussions, for the rest of my life....

So I am now trying to make people aware that there are flaws in this system. Major ones, that want to be hidden. I want people to have more than, "It's ok, they're good for you, they won't hurt you", to go on in deciding about vaccines.

So in thinking about all this, I'd like to ask you some vaccine related questions if you're up to it, when I have time.

And thank you again for understanding.

I apologize for the delayed response, as I'm just now getting back on PS...

@Ellen, I am so very sorry for your loss.

You're right, I cannot even begin to imagine how it would feel to go through something so traumatizing as the loss of a child. I feel for you, and I want you to know that I can understand where you're coming from... now more than ever.

There are most definitely flaws in the system, and every individual's body can react to and metabolize medication differently. I think we both agree that there needs to be much more screening, research, and consideration given for "routine" vaccinations.

My heart goes out to you, @Ellen. I mean that with utmost sincerity. Please try not to blame yourself... you simply did what you thought was best for your child(ren) at the time. Please try to
be kind to yourself and give yourself grace.

...and I'd be happy to [try to] answer any questions you have.

 

[ksinger]

Hey msop04, do you know if they even make a killed-virus measles vaccine anymore? I read that I'm not supposed to have any live, attenuated vaccines, but I'm wondering if I can get any protection at all from a killed one? I know they are not used anymore, but I'm wondering do they still make them?

I'll keep hunting, but if you know, I'd appreciate it.

 

[MissyBeaucoup]

Hey msop04, do you know if they even make a killed-virus measles vaccine anymore? I read that I'm not supposed to have any live, attenuated vaccines, but I'm wondering if I can get any protection at all from a killed one? I know they are not used anymore, but I'm wondering do they still make them?

I'll keep hunting, but if you know, I'd appreciate it.

Hi, KSinger. I searched the CDC website and I can’t find any information about a killed-virus measles vaccine. There is a certain percentage of people who can’t take live vaccines, including the very young and those who have weakened immune systems. We rely on having most of our population vaccinated so outbreaks can’t spread to vulnerable unvaccinated people.

I would encourage everyone to take the vaccines that are recommended for you. We have very fortunately forgotten the age of severe outbreaks. My grandmother’s little sister died of diphtheria when she was about 7. My grandmother grieved the loss of her sister her whole life. Two of her grandchildren, including me, were named after her. Before her sister died, her daddy lifted her up so she could see the horses outside the window one last time. It was terribly sad. We are so very fortunate to have modern vaccines and they have saved millions of lives.