Garry whadya think of this one-is aset attached

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/21/2007 5:58:32 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Second, don’t take optical symmetry for granted. I fear consumers who are accustomed to seeing the reflector images for diamonds on PS carried by the top sellers begin thinking every diamond will have H&A.

Here is the DiamCalc-generated hearts image for this stone.

In line with Garry’s sentiments, this is a great thread to illustrate that great performers don’t necessarily show H&A. Here is a GIA EX EX EX predicted to be AGS 0/1 for light performance. Bear in mind that it is also a lot closer to H&A than many top-graded diamonds “out there.”

or a storm 7.5 out of 10.
It comes down too $$ vs the best.

 

[JohnQuixote]

I don’t intend this as a commercial for H&A.Any expert will tell you optical symmetry is not a requirement for diamond beauty.But OS does have benefits some people seek in terms of contrast and intensity – and other seek in terms of cut precision pedigree - and to make the blanket statement that any AGS Ideal or GIA EX stone shows H&A is not accurate.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 9/21/2007 6:04:00 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
I don’t intend this as a commercial for H&A.Any expert will tell you optical symmetry is not a requirement for diamond beauty.But OS does have benefits some people seek in terms of contrast and intensity – and other seek in terms of cut precision pedigree - and to make the blanket statement that any AGS Ideal or GIA EX stone shows H&A is not accurate.

What about the blanket statement that All AGS0 have near or relatively close to Hearts and Arrows optical symmetery?

I haven't gotten to look at very many unmounted ideal cuts with a symmetry scope and while I understand that all AGS0 do not meet true Hearts and Arrows specifications, how far are they usually off? I would guess that generally your average layman could look at any AGS0 upside down with a symmetery scope (provided he was shown how to use it, some friends of mine did it upside down, etc) and see what he would call "Hearts." Maybe a cuople smaller than others, some long clefts etc, but I imagine pretty much anyone would say that an AGS0 has "hearts" when giving a general description of what they would see, though as I said some of them may veer farther off than others. Is that not true of an AGS0 grade?

Man I wish I could just bring out a large sample of ideal cut diamonds and check out the symmetry randomly and see what I see. Maybe one day I will get that chance.

 

[sparkles]

Thanks for the effort John......you guys really are the bomb!

Anyone else like to comment on this stone?

 

[Gypsy]

I think I missed this if it was answered, but is it upgradeable? If so... I''d take it. If not, I''d send it to a nearby appraiser. Just me though.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/21/2007 6:42:47 PM
Author: sparkles
Thanks for the effort John......you guys really are the bomb!

Anyone else like to comment on this stone?

Deary, it really doesn''t matter what we think, it matters what you think.

I already gave my opinion.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 9/21/2007 6:49:32 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 9/21/2007 6:42:47 PM

Author: sparkles

Thanks for the effort John......you guys really are the bomb!


Anyone else like to comment on this stone?

Deary, it really doesn''t matter what we think, it matters what you think.


I already gave my opinion.

I don''t know about that now, this is online and she can''t see it, but JQ can. So I woul dsay what JQ things is really important, but since it is his job to sell diamodns for that business Gary''s and even storms input is pretty valuable. I wonder if someone can answer my question above for me though?

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/21/2007 7:38:27 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards

Date: 9/21/2007 6:49:32 PM
Author: Ellen

Date: 9/21/2007 6:42:47 PM

Author: sparkles

Thanks for the effort John......you guys really are the bomb!


Anyone else like to comment on this stone?

Deary, it really doesn''t matter what we think, it matters what you think.


I already gave my opinion.

I don''t know about that now, this is online and she can''t see it, but JQ can. So I woul dsay what JQ things is really important, but since it is his job to sell diamodns for that business Gary''s and even storms input is pretty valuable. I wonder if someone can answer my question above for me though?

I took her question as asking we posters, not professionals, as to what we thought. And answered as such.

I could be wrong though, wouldn''t be the first time.

And you''re right, it''s pictures, she can''t actually look at the stone. Which, is why I told her I''d have a look at it.

And I would, no way I''d pick a stone of this magnitude without seeing it first.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 9/21/2007 6:13:02 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards

What about the blanket statement that All AGS0 have near or relatively close to Hearts and Arrows optical symmetery?

I haven't gotten to look at very many unmounted ideal cuts with a symmetry scope and while I understand that all AGS0 do not meet true Hearts and Arrows specifications, how far are they usually off? I would guess that generally your average layman could look at any AGS0 upside down with a symmetery scope (provided he was shown how to use it, some friends of mine did it upside down, etc) and see what he would call 'Hearts.' Maybe a cuople smaller than others, some long clefts etc, but I imagine pretty much anyone would say that an AGS0 has 'hearts' when giving a general description of what they would see, though as I said some of them may veer farther off than others. Is that not true of an AGS0 grade?

It depends on your standards. Your question is partially answered already: The diamond we brought in for Sparkles is likely to be AGS0 according to the cut guides, pending polish/symmetry grading (it received EX EX from GIA). Do you consider it H&A?

I've said before that we get pretty spoiled on PS. Remember that you’re not seeing hearts images for every diamond in the PS sift.The few companies that put up magnified photos, reflector and heart images for every diamond are pretty exposed so we tend to stick with highly symmetrical inventory with few exceptions. Considering how many there are out there compared to the actual photos online you are looking at a pretty narrow slice. I’m with you 100% - it would be great to see actual images for every online stone – taken by the suppliers... Hint hint suppliers! (wait for the tumbleweed to roll by – they’re not listening).

Date: 9/21/2007 6:13:02 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards

Man I wish I could just bring out a large sample of ideal cut diamonds and check out the symmetry randomly and see what I see. Maybe one day I will get that chance.

You could do that here but we tend to stick with a symmetrical inventory (per the above). Here’s an example we saved of a pretty non-H&A AGS0.I got the numbers for you: 1.02ct, 57T, 40.6 PA, 34.4 CA. Great numbers (!) and a nice looking stone but not anywhere near premium optical symmetry (it wasn’t important to the client). This one was graded under the proportions DQD pre-2005 but the cut guides and PGS still give it 0 LP.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 9/21/2007 6:42:47 PM
Author: sparkles

Thanks for the effort John......you guys really are the bomb!

You''re very welcome Sparkles – and we’re not done yet.

 

[FireGoddess]

It looks like a beautiful stone to me. For a purchase of this magnitude, would I bring the stone to a local appraiser and have a look at it myself? Most probably. It definitely seems worth the look.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 9/21/2007 8:03:32 PM
Author: JohnQuixote



You could do that here but we tend to stick with a symmetrical inventory (per the above). Here’s an example we saved of a pretty non-H&A AGS0.I got the numbers for you: 1.02ct, 57T, 40.6 PA, 34.4 CA. Great numbers (!) and a nice looking stone but not anywhere near premium optical symmetry (it wasn’t important to the client). This one was graded under the proportions DQD pre-2005 but the cut guides and PGS still give it 0 LP.

John i take it these photo''s you posted were of a diafferent stone?

The symmetry on the stone in question from the Sarin DiamCalc scan is way above what I expected.
Storm can you please explain your 7.5 out of 10?

On an aside I checked about 40 stones Sarin files in DiamCalc in the recent Rapaport Auction and about 1/2 had had GIA engrave H&A on the girdle. None had images as close to good H&A''s patterns as this stone.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 9/21/2007 8:26:40 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

John i take it these photo's you posted were of a diafferent stone?

Correct Garry. Completely different stone (for WHFSR query). My apologies to Sparkles and others - I birdwalked from the subject.

Date: 9/21/2007 8:26:40 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

The symmetry on the stone in question from the Sarin DiamCalc scan is way above what I expected.

Appreciate the input (from everyone). As I told Sparkles today, we will only move forward if she is comfortable. The 'mind clean' thing is a huge part of this process.

Date: 9/21/2007 8:26:40 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

On an aside I checked about 40 stones Sarin files in DiamCalc in the recent Rapaport Auction and about 1/2 had had GIA engrave H&A on the girdle. None had images as close to good H&A's patterns as this stone.

Off-topic again, considering what we see sold as "H&A" commercially I'm not surprised to hear about the Rap auction stones. If you have those examples in a folder and want to email them I'd be interested.

The other discussion can be taken to a different thread. WHFSR, I'll repost that example in the "H&A primer" kind of thread Oldminer started a week or so ago, here for any who're interested. I did some work and have graphic which give a more global taste of cut quality than we're used to in our high-quality PS fishbowl.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

no I wouldn't call that a hearts and arrows. that would be an instance where I would imagine the average person would look at that and say..."hum....kind of looks like some funky heart shapes a little bit"

however, I am wondering about that one you chose to save as having a funky pattern. Did you choose to save it because it is somewhat unusual to find AGS0 with hearts patterns that out of whack, or just because it was one sample of MANY such AGS0 that you wanted to have on hand?

and I know its a little late in the game for me to be asking this (mostly because I settled on AGS0 DQD for a variety of other reasons as the document I was most comfortable purchasing a diamond with online) but is AGS Ideal symmetry actually the same thing as GIA Excellent? or is the Ideal symmetery held to a somewhat more stringent set of standards? I had thought that they were the same for a long time now, but now I am second guessing myself and thinking Ideal is harder to achieve all of a sudden?

 

[Shay37]

Date: 9/21/2007 9:01:14 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
alright, I know its a little late in the game for me to be asking this (mostly because I settled on AGS0 DQD for a variety of other reasons as the document I was most comfortable purchasing a diamond with online) but is AGS Ideal symmetry actually the same thing as GIA Excellent? or is the Ideal symmetery held to a somewhat more stringent set of standards? I had thought that they were but now I am second guessing myself and thinking Ideal is harder to achieve?

and no I wouldn''t call that a hearts and arrows. that would be an instance where I would imagine the average person would look at that and say...''hum....kind of looks like some funky heart shapes a little bit''

That is the $64,000 question, is it not? I would suppose it would depend on which lab rep you were to ask, yes?

shay

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

sorry, I was editing my previous post when you quoted me
ah, and I didn't see the taking it to a different thread thing, let me see if I can move my question over there.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 9/21/2007 9:01:14 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
no I wouldn''t call that a hearts and arrows. that would be an instance where I would imagine the average person would look at that and say...''hum....kind of looks like some funky heart shapes a little bit''

however, I am just wondering because it is one that you chose to save as having a funky pattern. Did you choose to save it because it is somewhat unusual to find AGS0 with hearts patterns that out of whack, or just because it was one sample of many you wanted to have on hand?

and I know its a little late in the game for me to be asking this (mostly because I settled on AGS0 DQD for a variety of other reasons as the document I was most comfortable purchasing a diamond with online) but is AGS Ideal symmetry actually the same thing as GIA Excellent? or is the Ideal symmetery held to a somewhat more stringent set of standards? I had thought that they were the same for a long time now, but now I am second guessing myself and thinking Ideal is harder to achieve all of a sudden?

WH4SR check this link out for one of the reasons why bot GIA and AGS would down grade the sym of a stone, yet in the opposite situation - it can be a H&A''s and a real winner.
http://www.gemology.ru/cut/english/symmetry/6.htm

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

well, I moved it over to the other thread and I finally remembered my question I was wondering earlier, which I put in that post. as I was curious how combining an Ideal symmetry with an Ideal light might impact the consistency of the hearts pattern, (I would imagine it would have some impact, as while optical symmetry and light performance are not necessarily hand in hand, you know that you at least have ideal face up optical symmetry and you also know that the angles of every facet in the diamond are aligned in such as way as to give ideal light performance, which seems logical to me that it might end up resulting in not as consistent or perfect a hearts patten as basing it off optical properties, but perhaps create a fair bit of consistency in selecting near hearts and arrows diamonds.

I just say this because I imagine that a variation in the face down optical symmetry while still having face up symmetery would probably have an equivalent impact on the light performance between those relevant related angles?

 

[sparkles]

Looking for further advice here please. I''m such a size whore but thinking about going down in size to c if I can find anything else. Is this a good idea? At what mm smaller will I start to notice the difference in size?

The stone I have posted is on my cutoff point in terms of color and clarity. Have tried to find a HSI1 at this size but nothing doing.

Thanks for all your help

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Sparkles there are not many 3.5ct stones. Availability blips up a teeny bit at the X.1/2ct mark because people will pay about 5-10% more to say "I got a 3 an a half carrot".

Search for 3-3.99 round H vS2 and you find 8 pages.
The first 5 1/2 are 3.00 to 3.10. Half the last page are plus 3.50ct.
And of all the 3ct stones in the world you have set the bar at 0.01%.
You may never find a stone that meets your size color and clarity criteria - you are not looking for 1ct stones.
http://www.idexonline.com/Drivers_Composition.asp?id=5 indicates that HVS2 is 3.7% of all 3ct stones. And you want the 5% of them over 3.5ct - so it is 0.185% and your cut criteria makes it 1 in 200 - 0.1% is a damm good estimate.

Then there is the communication methodology. There are only a couple of vendors who have good photographic skills. The stone you rejected looked pretty damm good to me. The table is very slightly tilted, which has no effect on apprearance - only on the Sarin numbers - OctoNus Helium scanners calculate this with "OctoNus Theory" and this stone would then have virtually no crown pav variation.

So - extend your color, clarity, definetly accept fluoro, and size - or put the order out and wait a year or so.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/21/2007 5:58:32 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Second, don’t take optical symmetry for granted. I fear consumers who are accustomed to seeing the reflector images for the very precise diamonds carried by the top sellers on PS begin thinking every diamond will have H&A.

Here is the DiamCalc-generated hearts image for this stone.

In line with Garry’s sentiments, this is a great thread to illustrate that great performers don’t necessarily show H&A. Here is a GIA EX EX EX predicted to be AGS 0/1 for light performance. Bear in mind that it is also a lot closer to H&A than many top-graded diamonds “out there.”

actual heart image?
Its showing signs of fudged minors which the sarin based models will not pick up.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/21/2007 8:26:40 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Storm can you please explain your 7.5 out of 10?

1 point off for non-h&a and optical symmetry issues.
1 point off for angle combo and range, pavilion in particular.
.5 points off for the ASET image
IS image is pretty useless but would not be an added deduction over the ASET, one or the other can be applied but not both.

 

[strmrdr]

Personaly if I was going too go down in cut Id shot for more size.
http://www.angara.com/shop.do?pID=53877#
10mm for 53k and the angles are decent.
reasonable optical symmetry and its better than a 3.5 at 64k
If ya want to work with WF they may be able to get that stone too.
GIA Report Number: 14829756

 

[echelon6]

Pavilion angles have a huge variance

If asymmetry doesn''t bother you then buy. I agree with strm

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 9/23/2007 7:44:18 AM
Author: echelon6
Pavilion angles have a huge variance

If asymmetry doesn''t bother you then buy. I agree with strm

Correction, table has a very small tilt which gives double the deviation in crown and pavilion data.
It is a fundemental flaw in Sarin''s technology.

).35 degree of table tilt is not enought to stop such a stone having H&A''s
http://www.gemology.ru/cut/english/symmetry/6.htm
Read all about it Echelon

 

[sparkles]

Thanks everyone, again.

Strmrdr, that 3.75ct was the first stone I sniffed out at the beginning of this story. And realistically having spent some time trying to find a stone, the price is not accurate.

Its a teazer. It was sold some time ago. Its a minefield on that list. I have found some wonderful sounding numbers only to find out they are phantoms or on the other side of the world. (My part of the world) Which confuses me as to why they are advertised at all!

 

[echelon6]

Date: 9/23/2007 8:32:28 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 9/23/2007 7:44:18 AM

Author: echelon6

Pavilion angles have a huge variance


If asymmetry doesn''t bother you then buy. I agree with strm

Correction, table has a very small tilt which gives double the deviation in crown and pavilion data.

It is a fundemental flaw in Sarin''s technology.


).35 degree of table tilt is not enought to stop such a stone having H&A''s

http://www.gemology.ru/cut/english/symmetry/6.htm

Read all about it Echelon

Thanks mate, I''ll have a read. Didn''t know the table was tilted, I don''t know what indicates table tilt

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 9/23/2007 11:18:17 AM
Author: echelon6

Date: 9/23/2007 8:32:28 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 9/23/2007 7:44:18 AM

Author: echelon6

Pavilion angles have a huge variance


If asymmetry doesn''t bother you then buy. I agree with strm

Correction, table has a very small tilt which gives double the deviation in crown and pavilion data.

It is a fundemental flaw in Sarin''s technology.


).35 degree of table tilt is not enought to stop such a stone having H&A''s

http://www.gemology.ru/cut/english/symmetry/6.htm

Read all about it Echelon

Thanks mate, I''ll have a read. Didn''t know the table was tilted, I don''t know what indicates table tilt

You are welcome. The variation in the crown = the variation in the pavilion. And the stone has excellent optical symmetru. The 2 together prove it.

It is extremely common and often results in a lab downgrading an optically excellent stone 9the one in the Octonus MSU article got gIA Good).

The cause is often a tiny bit of dirt under the table in the polishing dop.
The visual impact is not able to be detected until it is over about 1.5 degrees (=3 degrees crown pav variance). It has little or no DiamCalc measurable BLR effect.

 

[sparkles]

Garry, why is the 3.50ct still graded as EX sym - shouldn''t it have been graded as only vg or gd? I know GIA are have a very broad range within each grade but is this too broad.

Is this an argument to stick with AGS stones because you know what you are getting.

Also, as a matter of interest what is your cut-off in terms of color and clarity in a stone of this size.

Thanks

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

If I knew all GIA''s (and AGS''s too) grading rules they would have to kill me Sparkles.

My rules for stones this size are G plus, like a bit of fluoro, but can be hard to resell, and SI1 up to VS2.

But we each have our own standards.