44 Cts.Rose Cut Light Fancy Yellowish Diamond

[AGBF]

Date: 9/19/2005 12:00:18 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood
This is an old diamond, Mandalay. It''s not a rose cut, by the way. It appears to be a very early antique brilliant cut, probably an early Peruzzi cut (predecessor to the old mine cut). This would place the cutting era on the stone probably somewhere between 1690 to 1750, most likely 1690 to 1730.

Rich,

Where would the cutting have been done (geographically) if the stone was cut between 1690 and 1750?

Deb

 

[hoorray]

Very interesting and beautiful stone Mandelay! Keep us informed as you make progress on the history and value!

 

[AGBF]

It will cost me $26.00 to read an article that sounds interesting. Here is a link to the site where it is available:

article

The article is, "THE LOCATION OF THE DIAMOND-CUTTING INDUSTRY"
by Mildred Berman and it was published in
Annals of the Association of American Geographers
Vol. 61 Issue 2 Page 316 June 1971


Deb

 

[AGBF]

Has anyone ever posted a link to this site? It gives a nice visual to the history of gem cutting!

History of Faceting

Deborah

 

[AGBF]

Finally we are getting to Venice! I also found it interesting that in France only the King was allowed to have diamonds. I had read that in Europe pearls were reserved for the nobility.

Venice Emerges


"The earliest diamond-cutting industry is believed to have been in Venice, a trade capital, starting sometime after 1330. Diamond cutting may have arrived in Paris by the late 14th century; for Bruges -- on the diamond trade route -- there is documentation for the technique in 1465."

 

[AGBF]

Gemcal has a history of diamond cutting posted on its website.

First it says,

"Diamond cutting techniques probably originated from India . In ancient times, this was limited to chipping or grinding. In ancient India gemstones were valued for their magical and astrological properties. It was thought thay modifying the natural state of a gem in any way would ruin the magical properties and render it useless. At most, the cleaving techniques of diamond were used to get flat faces on diamonds. The European travelers who visited India for its treasures imported diamonds from the Golconda mines near Hyderabad to Europe for cutting. They were ultimately transported back to India, and made a part of the Kings, Moguls and Maharaja's treasuries."

I am not sure why European travelers would bring back gems that would then be transported back to India, unless those "European travelers" were selling gems, not just exploring places new to them! (I mean, if I were travelling and I found a gem then brought it home to have it cut, I would then wear it!) Also: why would the gems be acceptable in India if cut gems were thought to be useless in India?

Second it says,

"The earliest European diamond-cutting industry is believed to have arisen in Venice , a prominent trade capital, starting sometime after 1330. Indian precious stones reached Venice by two Mediterranean routes – the southern route, by way of Aden , Ethiopia , and Egypt , and the northern route through Arabia , Persia , Armenia , and Turkey . When the Portuguese discovered a direct sea-route to India , Antwerp flourished as a diamond center because the city was well situated to receive vast supplies of rough from Lisbon as well as from Venice . The East Indian gems, many of which are doubtless very ancient, were polished in the usual oriental fashion by merely rounding off the angles."

Deborah

 

[AGBF]

Since some renegades had to go off and start a new thread just to confuse me, I am going to link their thread on the Peruzzi cut to this thread (where it belongs).

Renegade Thread

Deb

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 9/20/2005 11:07:31 AM
Author: AGBF

Rich,

Where would the cutting have been done (geographically) if the stone was cut between 1690 and 1750?

Deb

My guess would be Venice.

Nice research you did there, Deb.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 9/20/2005 11:44:22 AM
Author: AGBF

I am not sure why European travelers would bring back gems that would then be transported back to India, unless those 'European travelers' were selling gems, not just exploring places new to them!

Also: why would the gems be acceptable in India if cut gems were thought to be useless in India?

Deborah

The motivation for much of that travelling was commerce, and the gem trade proved very profitable for some adventurous fellows.

Chief among these was the Frenchman Jean Baptiste Tavernier, who played a major part in opening up the gem trade between India and Europe. (The following from the 1911 Encyclopedia):

TAVERNIER, JEAN BAPTISTE (1605-1689), French traveller and pioneer of trade with India, was born in 1605 at Paris, where his father Gabriel and uncle Melchior, Pro-.testants from Antwerp, pursued the profession of geographers and engravers.

The conversations he heard in his father's house inspired Tavernier with an early desire to travel.....

.....eager to visit the East; and at Ratisbon he found the opportunity to join two French fathers, M. de Chapes and M. de St Liebau, who had received a mission to the Levant. In their company he reached Constantinople early in 1631, where he spent eleven months, and then proceeded by Tokat, Erzerum and Erivan to Persia. His farthest point in this first journey was Ispahan; he returned by Bagdad, Aleppo, Alexandretta, Malta and Italy, and was again in Paris in 1633.

In September 1638 he began a second journey by Aleppo to Persia, and thence to India as far as Agra and Golconda. His visit to the court of the Great Mogul and to the diamond mines was connected with the plans realized more fully in his later voyages, in which Tavernier travelled as a merchant of the highest rank, trading in costly jewels and other precious wares, and finding his chief customers among the greatest princes of the East.

The second journey was followed by four others. In his third he went as far as Java, and returned by the Cape; but his relations with the Dutch proved not wholly satisfactory, and a long lawsuit on his return yielded but imperfect redress. In. his last three journeys he did not proceed beyond India. The details of these voyages are often obscure; but they completed an extraordinary knowledge of the routes of overland Eastern trade, and brought the now famous merchant into close and friendly communication with the greatest Oriental potentates. They also secured for him a large fortune and great reputation at home.

He was presented to Louis XIV., in whose service he had travelled sixty thousand leagues by land, received letters of nobility (on the 16th of February 1669), and in the following year purchased the barony of Aubonne, near Geneva. In 1662 he had married Madeleine Goisse, daughter of a Parisian jeweller.

 

[Mandalay]

Thanks Deborah.

I also have the chance to verify and negotiate the "Queen of Burma", as listed in the Cartier Book, 12 years back, the 18 Carats Burmese Ruby, sold by Cartier in the early Century. It is a beautify stone indeed. Pinkish Red with a tiny feather at the girdle is the only inlcusions. This stone is packed in the original Cartier jewelry box too. It belongs to the decendent of an Indian Maharaja, as they need money to pay off the huge land taxes to the Indian government yearly. But due the high asking price, it is not possible to get hold of it yet. Stone is still available today.

Man

 

[Mandalay]

Hi,

Are there records of how many Peruzzi cut in the world ? Any Museum having this cut or true sample cut ?

Man.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 9/20/2005 12:04:11 PM
Author: AGBF


Since some renegades had to go off and start a new thread just to confuse me, I am going to link their thread on the Peruzzi cut to this thread (where it belongs).

Renegade Thread

Deb

Thx Deb - just realized this thread is for real!!!!

Tried to model the diamond with DiamCalc - but can not make such a squarish stone. But it seems authentic. The black spots are the culet seen from many diferent directions indicating high RI.
But it could still turn out to be a CZ fake.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Just looked at the details of Mandalay.
Your name is Alan Bond.

I hope you are not making a joke about Alan Bond who was released from jail in Australia recently for an Enron type deal in the late 1980''s Mandalay?

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/25/2005 8:04:22 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
I hope you are not making a joke about Alan Bond who was released from jail in Australia recently for an Enron type deal in the late 1980''s Mandalay?

Uh oh. Did this Alan Bond perpetrate a fraud?

Deb

 

[MissAva]

I hope not...I am quite intreasted in the information this thread is generating. Perhaps some just do not wish to reveal too much of themselves to the world at large?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I doubt it is the same Alan Bond.

Our Alan does big things http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-20,GGLG:en&q=alan+bond+americas+cup

And did bad things http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-20,GGLG:en&q=alan+bond+corporate+fraud&spell=1

 

[Mandalay]

Hi,

No I am not that Bond. Don''t worry. All stones guaranteed genuine. Sorry for not responding earlier. Just came back from Goa and Bombay. Coincidentally found the Golgonda Mines map over 200 years old from a reputable gem family as per attached photo.

Please see attached.

 

[Mandalay]

Just to add this pciture is over 200 years old. This gem dealer is over 65 and his father died at 94. This picture was given to his father from his grand father. Further than this there''s no news where his grand father got it from.

Man.

 

[Mandalay]

Thank you ladies and gentlemen and especially Mr. Richard Sherwood who has this vast knowledge on Peruzzi Cut diamonds.

I do presumed that''s all the info for this diamond and its cut etc. Thanks indeed.

I am awaiting some old info on the Peruzzi cut report form Bombay. Once I have them in hand, I will share with you all again. Thanks, and thanks indeed.

Man.

 

[Mandalay]

Hi, Updates,

One auction House has agreed to accept this piece for auction. And, it is in the process to be graded by Gubelin Lab at Bangkok branch.

Man.

 

[Mandalay]

Hi,

Please refer to Topic Peruzzi cut also. The stone has been tested under FTIR and certified Type Ia Damond and NOT Type IIa as earlier thought.

Then this is not the Golconda Mine Diamond.

Could anyone has further opinion of advise as to the origin and or dates of the Peruzzi Cut ?

Thanks and regards,

Man.

 

[AGBF]

Thank you for the fascinating updates, Mandalay! It is not a Golconda, but it is still, obviously, very rare! Are these results you posted from the Gubelin Lab in Bangkok? Does the auction house know of the lab''s findings?

Deborah

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 11/7/2005 2:00:01 AM
Author: Mandalay

Please refer to Topic Peruzzi cut also. The stone has been tested under FTIR and certified Type Ia Damond and NOT Type IIa as earlier thought.

Then this is not the Golconda Mine Diamond.

Could anyone has further opinion of advise as to the origin and or dates of the Peruzzi Cut ?

Man.

Hi Mandalay. Nice to see your ongoing research.

If you'll read my prior comments, you'll see that I never said the diamond was a type IIA, but that if it "happened to be a type IIA" it would be a plus in the sale of it.

The interesting aspect about this is that this would place it as coming either from the Indian mines or the South American mines. The S.A. mines were discovered in 1727, the Indian mines go back to 800AD.

It would be interesting to test the diamond for it's "type". If it happened to be type IIa (some IIa's are light yellows), then a case might be made for it to be from the Golconda (India) mine area, which would help in it's sale and premium attached. The Gubelin lab in Switzerland does a good job in "certifying" Golconda origin, and their cert carries some weight.

As the diamond is not a type IIA, then a case can't be made for it coming from the Golconda mine region. Any further country of origin determination is an educated guessing game, which can't really be proven. South America is probably the best guess, with dating post 1727.

 

[Mandalay]

Dear Ana and Richard,

Thanks for both of you who are still a good contributor of facts to this thread.

No. Gubelin Lab staff will be here in Bangkok end November only. Yes, I will still send the stone for the Auction, although I have yet to inform them about this Type Ia findings. I will have to await for Gubelin Lab certification before I submit the stone to them for picture taking and circulation in pre-auction viewing around countries.

Hence, then this stone will be very lightly to be the SA mines cut in Venice or Belgium or Holland.

I am still pursuing research on the Golconda mines in India with my associates there. Will keep you all updated then.

Man.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Perhaps we can let one of these threads die if it only contains the same info?

 

[widget]

Heehee...when I saw this, I thought that Mandalay's rock had made the cover of Sotheby's!!

Turns out, this is actually a bigger one...107cts

Maybe after this is sold (estimated value: 1.5 -2 million USD) Mandalay will have a better idea of what his bauble is worth...

Mandalay...are you out there?? Would love an update on what's going on with that beautiful diamond!!

widget

 

[moon river]

107 carats??? I wonder if the person who wears that will ever experiance shrinkage.