44 Cts.Rose Cut Light Fancy Yellowish Diamond
- Thread starter Mandalay
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Any chance we could see a picture ! Not to mention that sapphire and .... whatever your pile of wonders might contain otherwise. A large rose cut like that is so very unusual
The couple I know of are definitely older than a century to boot.
Sorry I can't help with pricing such things. Would asking the help of a professional (appraiser, say) be out of the question? These things do not stryke me as the sort of issue that can be solved on a open forum. Not that I don't appreciate hearing the news - sure do!
Sorry I can't help with pricing such things. Would asking the help of a professional (appraiser, say) be out of the question? These things do not stryke me as the sort of issue that can be solved on a open forum. Not that I don't appreciate hearing the news - sure do!
LadyluvsLuxury
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Mandalay with a stone so rare, I think you need to get it professionally appraised....however, do you have any pics to share
Richard Sherwood
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Mandalay, are you for real?
Richard Sherwood
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I would recommend emailing pictures and as complete a description as possible to the major auction houses Christies and Sothebys.
They might possibly give you an estimated range of what they think it might auction for, depending on what info you''re able to supply them.
You could do the same for the 49 carat Burma sapphire you''ve asked about in the colored stone forum.
They might possibly give you an estimated range of what they think it might auction for, depending on what info you''re able to supply them.
You could do the same for the 49 carat Burma sapphire you''ve asked about in the colored stone forum.
thelittleguy
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Somebody call J-Lo...she would know
Richard Sherwood
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Mandalay, you ARE for real. Fascinating...
This is an old diamond, Mandalay. It's not a rose cut, by the way. It appears to be a very early antique brilliant cut, probably an early Peruzzi cut (predecessor to the old mine cut). This would place the cutting era on the stone probably somewhere between 1690 to 1750, most likely 1690 to 1730.
The interesting aspect about this is that this would place it as coming either from the Indian mines or the South American mines. The S.A. mines were discovered in 1727, the Indian mines go back to 800AD.
It would be interesting to test the diamond for it's "type". If it happened to be type IIa (some IIa's are light yellows), then a case might be made for it to be from the Golconda (India) mine area, which would help in it's sale and premium attached. The Gubelin lab in Switzerland does a good job in "certifying" Golconda origin, and their cert carries some weight.
Usually stones like these come with all kinds of provenance as to their history. Is there none on this one? Surely there's a story that goes with it...
This is a big money stone, Mandalay. A lot of factors will come into play on how much money it would bring. Chief of these is whether it will "cert" light fancy yellow, which in my opinion it probaby would (going by the photo, which is always risky). Secondly is whether it has an established provenance or not, thirdly would be dating of the cut and fourthly would be whether you could determine country and/or mine of origin.
Then you would need someone to do extensive research of comparables in order to narrow it down to a proper estimate of value. As I suggested earlier, you might consider sending photos and any documentation you have to Christies or Sothebys. They might do the research for you at no charge if you agree to market it through them.
If not, myself or other appraisers here on PriceScope would enjoy researching it for you. It would cost you a bit.
This is an old diamond, Mandalay. It's not a rose cut, by the way. It appears to be a very early antique brilliant cut, probably an early Peruzzi cut (predecessor to the old mine cut). This would place the cutting era on the stone probably somewhere between 1690 to 1750, most likely 1690 to 1730.
The interesting aspect about this is that this would place it as coming either from the Indian mines or the South American mines. The S.A. mines were discovered in 1727, the Indian mines go back to 800AD.
It would be interesting to test the diamond for it's "type". If it happened to be type IIa (some IIa's are light yellows), then a case might be made for it to be from the Golconda (India) mine area, which would help in it's sale and premium attached. The Gubelin lab in Switzerland does a good job in "certifying" Golconda origin, and their cert carries some weight.
Usually stones like these come with all kinds of provenance as to their history. Is there none on this one? Surely there's a story that goes with it...
This is a big money stone, Mandalay. A lot of factors will come into play on how much money it would bring. Chief of these is whether it will "cert" light fancy yellow, which in my opinion it probaby would (going by the photo, which is always risky). Secondly is whether it has an established provenance or not, thirdly would be dating of the cut and fourthly would be whether you could determine country and/or mine of origin.
Then you would need someone to do extensive research of comparables in order to narrow it down to a proper estimate of value. As I suggested earlier, you might consider sending photos and any documentation you have to Christies or Sothebys. They might do the research for you at no charge if you agree to market it through them.
If not, myself or other appraisers here on PriceScope would enjoy researching it for you. It would cost you a bit.
Richard Sherwood
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I think I would go with Geneva, after getting a report from the Gubelin lab.
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Thank you for sharing, as they say. Has this been posted on gemwow.com by any chance ? Unless there are two diamonds cut like this out there...
(edited after finding better pictures at gemwow)
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diamondsbylauren
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Hi Mandalay,
can you give me the measurements?
If it does not have historical value, it looks like a prime candidate for a recut.
I''d say a diamond GIA graded Fancy Light Yellow in a 30 carat size ( allowing for a lot of loss) would be worth about $200,000-$500,000.
I might be able to plug in the diameter and depth to get an idea of what size you could finish with if it was recut to modern specs.
can you give me the measurements?
If it does not have historical value, it looks like a prime candidate for a recut.
I''d say a diamond GIA graded Fancy Light Yellow in a 30 carat size ( allowing for a lot of loss) would be worth about $200,000-$500,000.
I might be able to plug in the diameter and depth to get an idea of what size you could finish with if it was recut to modern specs.
LadyluvsLuxury
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WOW that looks fantastic!
Richard Sherwood
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I'd make sure there's no historical significance before recutting, and maybe not even then. There's not that many early Peruzzi cuts in existence.
I remember when a large antique diamond was sent to Sotheby's for auction. I don't remember the exact figure, but it was estimated to bring like a half million or so.
One of the gemologists at Sotheby's kept thinking something about the diamond rang a bell, and he spent considerable time researching records of large old cut stones. Lo and behold, he was able to trace the diamond back to the Archduke Maximilian Joseph, whom Napoleon III made emperor of Mexico. Maximilian had the diamond in a pouch around his neck when he was executed by Mexican firing squad in 1867 at the orders of Benito Juarez, and then it disappeared from history.
Because of the gemologist's research, the diamond ended up selling for something like 10-15 million, compared to the half million originally estimated (again, I'm going from memory on the figures, but you get the idea).
You probably don't have that kind of spectacular history attached to this stone, but any kind of provenance of note would boost its salability and value. If you can link it to some person of note in the past (usually large diamonds are owned by persons of note), then it gives it a considerable increase in appeal.
Or on a different note, even a possible report linking the stone to the famous Golconda mine, along with it's unique antique cut, would give it historical appeal. We're talking a 300 year old diamond with a pleasant color, high clarity and a rare cut. To erase it's history and transform it into just another modern cut stone would be a crime.
I'd take a little time and trouble with this one, Mandalay. Could make a difference.
I remember when a large antique diamond was sent to Sotheby's for auction. I don't remember the exact figure, but it was estimated to bring like a half million or so.
One of the gemologists at Sotheby's kept thinking something about the diamond rang a bell, and he spent considerable time researching records of large old cut stones. Lo and behold, he was able to trace the diamond back to the Archduke Maximilian Joseph, whom Napoleon III made emperor of Mexico. Maximilian had the diamond in a pouch around his neck when he was executed by Mexican firing squad in 1867 at the orders of Benito Juarez, and then it disappeared from history.
Because of the gemologist's research, the diamond ended up selling for something like 10-15 million, compared to the half million originally estimated (again, I'm going from memory on the figures, but you get the idea).
You probably don't have that kind of spectacular history attached to this stone, but any kind of provenance of note would boost its salability and value. If you can link it to some person of note in the past (usually large diamonds are owned by persons of note), then it gives it a considerable increase in appeal.
Or on a different note, even a possible report linking the stone to the famous Golconda mine, along with it's unique antique cut, would give it historical appeal. We're talking a 300 year old diamond with a pleasant color, high clarity and a rare cut. To erase it's history and transform it into just another modern cut stone would be a crime.
I'd take a little time and trouble with this one, Mandalay. Could make a difference.
diamondsbylauren
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It''s a good question- I am thinking like a dealer.
Of course if there is a history of the diamond- or simply the cut itself instills a value to the diamond- then it would make financial sense not to recut the diamond.
It would mean that the value placed on the historical value would need to be quite high.
Looking at the photos, the diamond is remarkable as is, no doubt.
Still, if the stone came to market, and a cutter feels he can get a 35 carat stone which will bring $8000 a carat, then he might try to buy it for a couple of hundred G''s- at that point, the market would take over. Do collectors feel it''s worth more?- then they''ll outbid people thikning of re-cuts.
I could envision a really sweet 30 something carat Asscher maybe.......
Again- not to say it''s not amazing as is.
Of course if there is a history of the diamond- or simply the cut itself instills a value to the diamond- then it would make financial sense not to recut the diamond.
It would mean that the value placed on the historical value would need to be quite high.
Looking at the photos, the diamond is remarkable as is, no doubt.
Still, if the stone came to market, and a cutter feels he can get a 35 carat stone which will bring $8000 a carat, then he might try to buy it for a couple of hundred G''s- at that point, the market would take over. Do collectors feel it''s worth more?- then they''ll outbid people thikning of re-cuts.
I could envision a really sweet 30 something carat Asscher maybe.......
Again- not to say it''s not amazing as is.
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Because someone is selling a major diamond that was in the family for generations, I'm certain I am wasting my breath, but here goes.
When considering a recut might I add that potential sale price is not the only consideration?
History is important too, even if this stone's provenance is not remarkable or is lost.
No provenance is necessary to see that the cut itself is historical.
(Though it WOULD be tragic if you left it intact out of respect for the cut's history only to sell it for X dollars to a person who recut it to only to sell it for 2X.)
To most people all that matters is money.
Perhaps a sale to the GIA (I have seen their exciting historical collection in Carlsbad California) or some institution or museum with a collection of gems could be arranged?
Although an auction is the ultimate appraisal, perhaps an agreeable price to an institution, which will preserve the historical cut, can be achieved.
When considering a recut might I add that potential sale price is not the only consideration?
History is important too, even if this stone's provenance is not remarkable or is lost.
No provenance is necessary to see that the cut itself is historical.
(Though it WOULD be tragic if you left it intact out of respect for the cut's history only to sell it for X dollars to a person who recut it to only to sell it for 2X.)
To most people all that matters is money.
Perhaps a sale to the GIA (I have seen their exciting historical collection in Carlsbad California) or some institution or museum with a collection of gems could be arranged?
Although an auction is the ultimate appraisal, perhaps an agreeable price to an institution, which will preserve the historical cut, can be achieved.
glitterata
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If somebody recuts that beautiful piece of history, I''ll cry. And why should it be worth more recut? Shouldn''t it be worth more in its original state? It couldn''t possibly be prettier.
JohnQuixote
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Stunning diamond.
GREAT information and teaching, Rich.
GREAT information and teaching, Rich.
Richard Sherwood
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Thanks John.
Mandalay, I ran across reference to a company that researches provenance on historical diamonds called "Gem Sleuth". They''ve handled some pretty important provenances, so they must be good.
I couldn''t find any contact information for them when I did a web search, but you might have more luck.
Mandalay, I ran across reference to a company that researches provenance on historical diamonds called "Gem Sleuth". They''ve handled some pretty important provenances, so they must be good.
I couldn''t find any contact information for them when I did a web search, but you might have more luck.
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Glitterata wrote: “. . . why should it be worth more recut? . . .”
Apparently it MAY be worth more recut if its provenance is not distinguished.
Why?
Today we know how to cut for better light performance, and place a higher value on such diamonds.
If the provenance were negligible, I'd expect that many buyers today would judge a stone by today's light performance standards rather than putting value on the cut standards of 1700.
Of course a recut means lost weight, and with today's obsession with size who knows which would command a higher price?
Apparently it MAY be worth more recut if its provenance is not distinguished.
Why?
Today we know how to cut for better light performance, and place a higher value on such diamonds.
If the provenance were negligible, I'd expect that many buyers today would judge a stone by today's light performance standards rather than putting value on the cut standards of 1700.
Of course a recut means lost weight, and with today's obsession with size who knows which would command a higher price?
diamondsbylauren
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It''s not neccesarily a negative thng- money is a motivating force.
Say the diamond was owned by a family, and the sale of the diamond financed a retirement- or a college education.
Wouldn''t it be best if the sellers got the maximum amount for the diamond?
We could be talking hundreds of thousands of dollars here- so the buyer too, must be very serious, and motivated- one way or the other.
It would be interesting to find out the value or provenance.
Say the diamond was owned by a family, and the sale of the diamond financed a retirement- or a college education.
Wouldn''t it be best if the sellers got the maximum amount for the diamond?
We could be talking hundreds of thousands of dollars here- so the buyer too, must be very serious, and motivated- one way or the other.
It would be interesting to find out the value or provenance.
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Yeah... I was wondering about this: usually I get statements like ''weight over..., details reserved'' or something.
It would be reckless from my part to put forth an opinion about price - I am no expert and even if I''d be - color and provenance are still unknowns.
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This was a fascinating discussion, but I hope it has only begun. I hope that Mandalay pursues the quest for the stone's history, whether via the Gubelin laboratory or Gem Sleuth. This story sounds as if it could be a book...complete with a (maybe) Golconda diamond!
And, Rich, you are not just a pretty face!!! I was impressed by your knowledge of gemological history.
Deborah
And, Rich, you are not just a pretty face!!! I was impressed by your knowledge of gemological history.
Deborah
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