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Peruzzi cut

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by glitterata, Sep 19, 2005.

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  1. glitterata
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    by glitterata » Sep 19, 2005
    Mandelay showed us an antique diamond that Rich Sherwood identified as an early Peruzzi cut. I think it looks absolutely fantastic.

    here

    Are there other Peruzzi cuts around--perhaps smaller ones, since Mandelay''s is 44 cts? Are they very hard to find? Are they more expensive than modern brilliants?

    Would someone please give me one for my birthday?
     
  2. Richard Sherwood
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    by Richard Sherwood » Sep 19, 2005
    Here''s a diagram of the Peruzzi Cut, along with some comments, courtesy of www.wagenblu.com:

    It is generally conceded that a Venetian cutter, Vincenzo Peruzzi in the late 17th century , was the first person to cut diamonds with 56 facets, a table and a culet, making 58 in all. Peruzzi''s form of cutting was also know as the Triple cut .The design attributed to Peruzzi is basically an idealized version of an old mine cut. It is very rare to find stones with the pointed corners and exact symmetry of the peruzzi cut. By the early 1800s, the antique cut''s squarish corners had become subtly more rounded.

    puzvsolm20.jpg
     
  3. glitterata
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    by glitterata » Sep 19, 2005
    Interesting! They look very similar, but that diamond Mandalay showed us looked pretty different from an old mine cut to me.
     
  4. valeria101
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    by valeria101 » Sep 19, 2005
    Of course I couldn't let go of this one!


    That diamond is too large and cut too close to the original crystal to have been through rough grinding like that. Until when was this preffered versus more intensely modified shaping is one question I do not have much of an answer for. There are other large diamonds in historic jewelry cut like this - could be either historic technological constraints or economics or both that gave its shape. The pictures show some extra facets too... Maybe we'll hear it was cut yesterday: which would prove no less than the owner's great taste, IMO.

     
  5. valeria101
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    by valeria101 » Sep 20, 2005
    Vincenzo Peruzzi would have liked Pricescope... if there was such a character. I found his name many times, but no primary source. Is there one? For some reason I've always throught this name is related to a set of ideal proportions for the rose brilliant, not a shape. Much like the HCA works out proportions on the RBC cut without disputing the cut diagram itself.

    The reworked archives of the Lapidary Journal turned up THIS about the fellow.

    This article cited below is mostly to to blame for my confusion:

    PeruzziCut.JPG
     
  6. Richard Sherwood
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    by Richard Sherwood » Sep 20, 2005
    The Peruzzi Cut followed the outline of the original octahedron more closely than the Old Mine Cut, with sharp corners, like the one posted by Mandalay. When you look at the face-up and side views, you can see that the finished stone closely follows the octahedral outline. The Old Mine Cut shows more rounding of the corners, and started becoming more prevalent in the mid-1700's.

    I seriously doubt the stone was cut recently, as it would not make economic sense. Without a true historic provenance to help the stone out, it would make much more sense to give it a modern cut rather than a cruder antique cut (as Dave pointed out on the other thread). The stone would be livelier, with possibly a more intense color shown, and much more liquid.

    The general consensus is that Vincenzo Peruzzi did exist. Some people like to question it because they can't find his name in the 1700's yellow pages, but somebody had to come up with that cut, and the name Peruzzi has been attached to it for 300 years.
     
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  7. AGBF
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    by AGBF » Sep 20, 2005
    Why this thread had to be started baffles me. There I was, over in the , posting away, and you had all moved over here! If any of you repents for having posted here and returns to the true Peruzzi thread, his heresy will be forgiven!

    Deb
     
  8. Giangi
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    by Giangi » Sep 20, 2005
    If we have round brilliants nowadays it''s because of an italian! [​IMG] loooool

    Seriously, it''s a very interesting and charming cut, but I''m not sure it would be easy to find in any 0.75-2ct stone. They are usually very deep (I wouldn''t be surprised to find a 68-75% depth), thus not really favorable for a medium sized stone.
    I think the best source for such stone would be an estate jewelry store or a phonecall/email to Fay Cullen could be of help. [​IMG]
     
  9. valeria101
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    by valeria101 » Sep 20, 2005
    Diamond jewelry that old is quite some tall order! I would not know where to look for two pieces together. Fay''s diamond pieces are mostly new - unless there is allot more to the shop than shown online. The loose diamonds - what can I say, I have never found one like this until present. The ones I know (regardless of size) of are set in historic jewelry.

    Hopefully someone will appreciate this piece here more than a piece of rough with equivalent yield [​IMG]
     
  10. valeria101
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    by valeria101 » Sep 20, 2005
    ... ths should have been attached to the previous post. Just look-alike, but it''s been a while since anything closer crossed my way on the web.

    days.JPG
     
  11. Richard Sherwood
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    by Richard Sherwood » Sep 20, 2005
    I know what you mean, Ana. I did a thorough search for some photos of actual Peruzzi cuts, and failed to come up with any!
     
  12. glitterata
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    by glitterata » Sep 20, 2005
    I''m sorry, Deb! It''s my fault. I wanted to know more about this beautiful cut, but I didn''t want to hijack Mandalay''s thread about his stone.

    Thanks for all the fascinating info. I''m sad, but not surprised, that I can''t go out and buy myself a 17th-century treasure.
     
  13. Mandalay
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    by Mandalay » Sep 25, 2005
    Sorry. lost touch. Travelling now in Goa and then Bombay. Does anyone have more details on this cut ? Is there records of all Peruzzi cut ? How many ? In museum like London Crown Jewels or Smithsonian ? What premium for this cut ? Is this the oldest Diamond cut ?

    Man.
     
  14. valeria101
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    by valeria101 » Sep 25, 2005
    This was the first fine brilliant cut - one with care of proportions - it is a historic cut by all means.

    Similarly shaped stones can be found in museums - it is not London that comes to mind, but Moscow. In the EU I would try the museum of Dresden for documentation... But whatever you decice, it will still be the asessment of a mainstream gem lab (Gubelin, say) or auction house that carries commercial weight.

    I don't think you will find records of how many such diamonds were cut or what not - perhaps a list of 'similar' named diamonds could be assembled.

    Premium? I can't say I see an old stone like that every year... Perhaps I am not looking in the right place though.

    You don't see 'historic diamonds' on sale very often - and that is little said.
     
  15. Garry H (Cut Nut)
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    by Garry H (Cut Nut) » Sep 25, 2005
    without research (off the top of head recollection) the Mazarin dates about 100 years earlier at mid 17th century.

    They were all the percusors to the modern brilliant - there are the same facets in the same places.
     
  16. Mandalay
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    by Mandalay » Sep 26, 2005
    Back from the research on Peruzzi cut, found further interesting articles and stones.

    I am not that Bond, do not worry. I am not selling stones here please. Just seek opinion. It doesn''t hurt no one at all. Do not worry, even if it is CZ cut stones as suspect. Same stone sharper are at Gemwow too for opinion. (www.gemwow.com on Maharani diamond. Gemwow is a reputable website and they have World Stadards Gemologist too.)

    Found an old map of Golconda Mines, wide spread with at least 6 to 7 mining areas along the Kistna River, at Hyderabad.

    There''s a village called Vajraberlut, where it is mostly farming peanuts. But on annual basis, farmers found diamonds when harvesting the peanuts entangled in the roots of the peanut plant. Farmers tried digging further down but found nothing.

    Please see attached file map of Golconda Mines.

    Golconda Mines2.jpg
     
  17. Mandalay
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    by Mandalay » Sep 26, 2005
    VajraBerlut. Vajra means Diamond. Berlut means farmer.

    Man.
     
  18. Mandalay
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    by Mandalay » Oct 3, 2005
    Ladies and gentlemen,

    Thanks indeed for all the kind info and facts. It helps indeed to undertsand more about this cut and the Golconda diamond mines. Once, I got the paper in hand (The Golconda mines in Hyderabad) I will also share it with you all. Thanks.
    Man.
     
  19. Richard Sherwood
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    by Richard Sherwood » Oct 4, 2005
    Yeah, keep us posted Mandalay. You keep things interesting.
     
  20. fire&ice
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    by fire&ice » Oct 4, 2005
    If it helps - to add to the mystic - Perruzi is a famous jewelry house in Italy. Some of the family moved to the US in the first part of the century & are still making jewelry very much in the Italian Ren. tradition.
     
  21. Mandalay
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    by Mandalay » Oct 10, 2005
    Hi,

    Updates;

    The Auction House has agreed to accept this stone for auction with its romancing tales along with it.

    Gubelin Lab has a branch in Bangkok where they grade stone once a month or once in 2 months. They also have portable FTIR to certify Type IIa diamond too.

    Man.
     
  22. valeria101
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    by valeria101 » Oct 11, 2005
    Thanks for the news ;-) Stories you say? I will surely keep track of this one!
     
  23. Mandalay
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    by Mandalay » Nov 6, 2005
    Hi,

    As Gubelin staff will be coming to Bangkok to grade gemstones this month, they contacted me and opinion that the 44 Carats stone may not be a Type IIa Diamond. They reasoned that Type IIa Diamond will either have brownish or Pinkish overtone.

    With their pre-advise, I have the stone tested on the FTIR and sure enough that the stone with result as Type Ia only.

    Now with Type Ia, this will not be the Golconda Mine Diamond. Then, where would this diamond be from and its age ???

    Could anyone have any opinion and further advise please ?

    Man.

    FTIRtypeIIa.jpg
     
  24. AGBF
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    by AGBF » Nov 7, 2005
    I am trying to follow this saga in two threads. In the other thread I just asked if the results you posted were obtained from the Gubelin lab in Bangkok after the stone was examined. From what I am reading here, it seems it has not yet been examined!

    Are you still going to go forward with the examination? I suspect that the lab will know more about the stone's origins after examining it. That does not preclude your looking for information on Peruzzi cuts, however! Richard Sherwood seems to know a lot about them (and Ana is gaining on him quickly due to her dog-with-a-bone style of research!).

    Deborah
     
  25. Richard Sherwood
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    by Richard Sherwood » Nov 7, 2005
    As the diamond is not a type IIA, then a case can''t be made for it coming from the Golconda mine region. Any further country of origin determination is an educated guessing game, which can''t really be proven. South America is probably the best guess, with dating post 1727.
     
  26. Mandalay
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    by Mandalay » Nov 7, 2005
    Thank you Ana and Richard for still following this thread.

    The stone will be submitted to Gubelin Lab for certification when they arrive end Novermber to Bangkok.

    It will be more intriguing if it is Type IIa. Ah, the intrigue ends here then.

    Man.
     
  27. windowshopper
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    by windowshopper » Nov 7, 2005
    that yellow stone posted by mandalay is sheer torture.............
     
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