your thoughts on this sapphire?

[slksapphire]

i posted a month ago about my sapphire search -- quick rehash: unheated/treated, cushion or emerald cut, medium-dark blue (i think "ideal" is more in the medium range, but i like them on the slightly darker side), 5+ carats.

i have looked at a bunch of stones and rejected all of them so far. here is the latest ... was hoping to get impressions from the very knowledgeable crew here.

a couple of questions/comments:
1. the sapphire looks quite dark in the photo but was much lighter in natural afternoon sunlight. are my eyes playing tricks on me? can there be so much difference between a photograph and real life?
2. how do you evaluate an emerald cut for windows? i didn't see any from the top but won't you always have windows when you tilt the stone?
3. the stone is certified by grs and color is "vivid blue." is that meaningful at all?
4. the jeweler is willing to get an agl prestige report on his nickel ...

i don't love this setting though i may consider a different halo. anyone know why emerald cuts are rarely set in halos?

i have a price quote but any guesses on what would be in the zone for a stone like this (per carat)? or is this a silly question given i only have 1 not-so-great photo?

thanks to all ... the search continues.

 

[slksapphire]

oops. forgot to mention it is 8-9 carats, no visible inclusions, no origin stated

 

[chrono]

1. I agree that the sapphire looks almost inky black with some blue flashes in the picture. That is a lot of extinction, if you ask me. That said, I do not know the lighting condition of that picture. Most sapphires tend to look their best in the afternoon sunlight (indirect lighting) and their worst indoors. Sapphires almost always colour shift from indoors to outdoors so it is possible.

2. The only way to check for windowing is from the top down through the table. The picture shows the stone at an angle, therefore, it is very difficult to hazard a guess. Yes, there will be some degree of windowing when any gemstone is tilted and that is called a window tilt, which is normal to varying degrees depending on the RI of the material and cut of the stone.

3. Good that the stone comes with a lab memo from GRS. Unfortunately, I am leery of GRS' terminology of describing colour in gemstones; they still use very odd terms like pigeon's blood and the like.

4. When a jeweller is willing to get the AGL prestige report, that is a very good sign...more so when it's on his nickle for a high priced item. What I would want to check out is the tone (looks super dark), the zoning (it is so extinct, I cannot even tell if it is zoned), colour shifting, and etc. Some of these, you can only tell in person (not listed in the memo) and some will be listed in the memo.

Emerald cuts are rarely set in halos because of the clash of appearance. Step cuts are very subtle; they tend to be quite with the occasional flash. Round diamond melees are almost always used in halos, and those tend to be very flashy and sparkly, which is a huge contrast to the subdued step cut center stone.

Pricing on such a stone will depend on the colour, evenness of colour and etc. At this point, I would not even place a guess because it could be inexpensive (if very extinct) or very expensive (if truly vivid).

 

[T L]

I echo everything Chrono said, but the first thing that jumped out at me is how incredibly dark that sapphire is. What you don't want in a sapphire, or any gemstone, is a "black hole" (all the light that goes in never comes back out again).

 

[slksapphire]

TL and Chrono,

thanks, you guys are so helpful. in my very limited experience, i haven't seen such dramatic color shifting though i always look at the stones both in natural sunlight and indoors. but that may be the case with this one. the stone just didn't look nearly as dark indoors in real life and certainly was lighter in natural sun. and i thought it was quite brilliant, at least for an emerald cut, which fundamentally looks different from cushion/oval.

i read richard hughes' article on extinction and have a couple newbie questions about it.

1. can a stone be both brilliant and show extinction, i.e., it returns a lot of light in a lot of places but is "dead"/black in others? or do the two features always go hand in hand?

2. what % brilliance do you expect to see in an agl grading report from a very good sapphire? i imagine cut matters, too ... is there a difference in brilliance between emerald and cushion cuts?

3. what do agl reports generally say about zoning? i looked that their sample reports and in one, it says "N/A" for an emerald and in another, they state there is faint zoning in the comments section of a sapphire report.

sorry for some dumb questions! thanks.

 

[chrono]

It sounds like you have seen this emerald cut sapphire in person?

How dark did the stone get indoors? Was it very dark, showing only flashes of blue or was it still mostly blue but with a few dark areas? Did the stone get a little gray or did it turn more violetish?

1. Yes and no. A stone can show brilliancy in the areas that are not extinct but if the stone has a lot of extinction, then the brilliancy will be limited to those non-dark areas. The greater the extinction, the lower the brilliancy because the darkness "sucks" in all the light, returning nothing to the eye.

2. The cut somewhat dictates the level of brilliancy to some degree but good cutting definitely plays a role. In the AGL memo, they take into consideration not only the colour but zoning and other aspects of the stone, therefore it is difficult to say with 100$ surety that x% brilliancy is expected in a very good sapphire.

3. Zoning is actually quite common in sapphires but they are only graded face up. Zoning is more easily apparent from the pavilion. Always aim for no zoning or if the price is right, faint zoning.

 

[chrono]

TL posted this famous step cut sapphire recently in another thread. As you can see, there isn't much extinction (darkness doesn't cover most of the stone) so it remains quite blue and the brilliancy is apparent all throughout the stone. It is actually more of a baguette cut than an emerald cut but who cares with that colour and size.

 

[Pandora II]

I would go with what you saw with your own eyes and not by the photograph.

An 8ct unheated blue sapphire of the medium blue colour that you describe you saw would probably run in the $30k + bracket.

 

[T L]

I would go with what you saw with your own eyes and not by the photograph.

An 8ct unheated blue sapphire of the medium blue colour that you describe you saw would probably run in the $30k + bracket.

Actually, probably more $$ these days with all the sapphire mania going on.

I was just judging strictly by the photograph, but if you think it was much lighter in person, than that's a different story. I agree with Pandora.

 

[slksapphire]

yes, i have seen this stone in person and plan to see it again in a few days. indoors, the stone looked medium-dark throughout; i will check much more closely for zones of extinction next time. when i tilted the stone to catch the light, it showed flashes of violet/royal blue but no grey. i didn't see any zoning from the table but will also check from the pavilion next time.

unfortunately, the stone looks like cr*ap compared to the rockefeller burmese. but i'm guessing most stones do when you compare them to that one.

this stone is being shown to me by a very reputable, hi-end retailer (not the internet) ... the price is (gulp) $60,000.

i hate being a newbie with this as i'd hate to make such an expensive mistake. i've passed on many stones so far and am willing to wait as long as it takes. i'm hoping "i'll know it when i see it."

thanks again to everyone here. i would be totally lost without the excellent opinions here.

 

[slksapphire]

by the way, i can't believe how unlucky i am with the timing of the william/kate wedding. i've known i've wanted a sapphire for the past 12+ years (since i got engaged with a traditional diamond e-ring) but sapphire mania is making supply incredibly tight and sending prices through the roof!!!

 

[T L]

yes, i have seen this stone in person and plan to see it again in a few days. indoors, the stone looked medium-dark throughout; i will check much more closely for zones of extinction next time. when i tilted the stone to catch the light, it showed flashes of violet/royal blue but no grey. i didn't see any zoning from the table but will also check from the pavilion next time.

unfortunately, the stone looks like cr*ap compared to the rockefeller burmese. but i'm guessing most stones do when you compare them to that one.

this stone is being shown to me by a very reputable, hi-end retailer (not the internet) ... the price is (gulp) $60,000.

i hate being a newbie with this as i'd hate to make such an expensive mistake. i've passed on many stones so far and am willing to wait as long as it takes. i'm hoping "i'll know it when i see it."

thanks again to everyone here. i would be totally lost without the excellent opinions here.

Also remember that jeweler's lighting is optimal for making gemstones look their best, so whenever viewing a stone like that, look at it outdoors and away from the jeweler's lights.

 

[T L]

by the way, i can't believe how unlucky i am with the timing of the william/kate wedding. i've known i've wanted a sapphire for the past 12+ years (since i got engaged with a traditional diamond e-ring) but sapphire mania is making supply incredibly tight and sending prices through the roof!!!

Yes, and her stone isn't even that pretty (if the photos are accurate, it's a black hole).

 

[slksapphire]

TL, when i looked at the stone, i also saw it under indirect sunlight where it looked pretty bright blue. that raised my most significant concern about color -- the color looked so good in sunlight and darker indoors, but nothing like the photo i was sent by the retailer. that is what got me worked up about the color changing aspect ...

following up on this, is tone graded in sunlight or indoor lighting? how much change in tone is acceptable between the two?

 

[slksapphire]

and i agree with your assessment of the kate ring ... and i'm not a huge fan of the setting, either.

 

[T L]

TL, when i looked at the stone, i also saw it under indirect sunlight where it looked pretty bright blue. that raised my most significant concern about color -- the color looked so good in sunlight and darker indoors, but nothing like the photo i was sent by the retailer. that is what got me worked up about the color changing aspect ...

following up on this, is tone graded in sunlight or indoor lighting? how much change in tone is acceptable between the two?

I forget what lighting AGL uses to grade hue, tone and saturation. You may want to call them or check out their website and ask. I think it's something that replicates natural diffused light, but don't quote me on that. Sapphires often look better in natural light, but I have one that I love in both sets of lighting, and it has very little color change. AGL graded it "blue."

ETA: Is the stone a lot like Elizabeth Hurley's e-ring?

 

[T L]

and i agree with your assessment of the kate ring ... and i'm not a huge fan of the setting, either.

My jeweler told me that people are asking him for "black sapphires" to replicate the look of her ring. They don't even want sapphires with any blue in them, so that should tell you how dark it is. I have seen tons of replicas in stores, and they are all very dark stones.

 

[slksapphire]

ack, i had no idea elizabeth hurley's latest e-ring was a square sapphire! any idea what the cut is? don't know what kind of light was used in that photo but it looks inky to me ... the stone i'm looking at isn't as dark to the eye in indoor light and looks a bit more royal than midnight, if that makes any sense?

 

[T L]

ack, i had no idea elizabeth hurley's latest e-ring was a square sapphire! any idea what the cut is? don't know what kind of light was used in that photo but it looks inky to me ... the stone i'm looking at isn't as dark to the eye in indoor light and looks a bit more royal than midnight, if that makes any sense?

I think she was outdoors when that photo was taken. It appears to be a radiant cut.

 

[Pandora II]

$60k isn't unreasonable.

Prices went up by around 60% plus the Chinese are buying everything there is available...