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meow4444

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
50
I have been offered the following diamond by a dealer.
I plucked the numbers into the Cut Adviser and it gives a 1.9 score and the following:

Light Return: Excellent
Fire: Very Good
Scintillation: Very Good
Spread or diameter for weight: Excellent


What do you guys think? Also how much would you say it is worth?

1.12ct
6.81 X 3.99
Depth: 58.6
Table: 62.3 (Is this not a bit wide?)
Crown angle: 33.9
Crown Height: 12.8%
Pavilion angle: 41.0
Pavilion Depth: 43.2
Cutlet: 0.1%
Girgle thickness: 1.0% (Thin - Medium)

Proportion: Excellent
Symmerty: Excellent

Is there any other information I should ask for?

Thanks!
 

meow4444

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
50
Sorry all, forgot to add that it is a -

Colour: G
Clarity: VS2

Thanks!
 

meow4444

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
50
When you said, 'It will not be as firey and scintillating'....do you think I should not buy this stone?

Should I be looking for something 'Excellent' when plugged into the Cut Adviser?

How much would you give as a fair price for this stone?
 

meow4444

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
50
How is a sarin report obtained?

Do I need to be concerned about the reliability (in terms of system/lab used) of the report?
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Interesting stone! It's somewhat like our stone, which has a 61.4% table and a 56.9% depth...larger table, shallower depth leads to a larger looking stone (spread) than it really is. Your angles look okay, my crown is much shallower.

When CN says better brilliance, it means in my eyes (and when I see my stone compared to others I have viewed with fire inside), that these types of stones appear more white and bright than a stone with more fire and scintillation. Imagine that a diamond has a little rainbow of fire inside, that is how I view fire and scint. White light and brilliance means more that the diamond faces up white and looks sparkly in the white sense. Speaking of SENSE I am sure this post is making NONE. It's hard to explain. But I have seen the difference in some of the stones I have viewed online and my stone. Mine is more white, bright and light. It's a clearer looking stone. Ideal stones I have seen have little rainbows and and a darker look inside the stone. (Not dark as in bad..but not white like the brilliant stones are to me). It's a preference thing. Personally I like both..in different ways. My stone looks very white and light and CLEAN almost. The other stones with fire inside look mysterious and sexy to me.

I also look at it in this way. Ideal stones carry more weight in their depth than these shallow stones, meaning you are paying more for extra carat weight that gives you that beautiful fire/scint. But this stone (and mine) have less depth, and more top, meaning you are paying less for a bigger looking stone. That's the way I like to see it anyway...these stones are top heavy! Hee Hee.

Have you seen the stone? Do you like the way it looks? Then chances are..its an awesome stone. The numbers seem to check out, your angles are okay, the color and clarity is good. Ours is a G, VS1. BTW I think that stones with the larger table, shallower depth face up almost whiter looking than their color grade.

The trade marks diamonds such as this down a bit in price as they are not technically ideal. I would estimate that a stone similar to this should cost around $5000.

Also you mention looking for 'excellent' in the cut advisor. Your score as a 1.9 *is* excellent. Under 2.0 is excellent. You could continue to look for more excellents, but personally, if you have seen the stone, like it...and the price is good..go for it. Or if you want fire inside your stone vs. a brighter looking stone, keep searching and stay with a smaller table.

Good luck!
 

meow4444

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
50
Thanks for the detailed analysis. It gave me a better understanding of the report from the dealer.

I have not seen the diamond in person yet but will next weekend. Wish me luck!

The dealer has not quoted me a price yet because he is sending the diamond to the lab to have the colour and clarity re-confirmed -(the stone had been sent for re-polishing and he gave me the sarin report right after the re-polishing. Think he wants to re-confirm that it is still a G/VS2 before quoting me).

When you suggested a price of $5000, is it $5000/carat or $5000 for the 1.12 carat? I have a feeling he is going to charge way more than that. I did a search in the Pricescope diamond database and a diamond with similar carat,colour, clarity, depth and table cost $7000. Just wondering other than ever-so-kind Mara, is there anyone else in the forum that can give their estimate? I want to get a range from the experts here before I meet him so that I will know what is the max to pay.

Thanks.
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,271
2 possible simulated LightScope images based on varying minor facet arrangement. In this case not much of a difference.

The pale areas under the table is why Gary may be saying what he is.

When I see those pale areas the question that always rises in my mind is how can we make those DARK RED.


Rhino

meow03.jpg
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,271
tapering that pavilion angle to 40.5 (even with the 62.2 table) with 65% stars and 79% lower girdles CERTAINLY helps. However that requires a recut of the pavilion which this source is MOST likely not willing to do.

Overall internal reflectivity should be ok though regardless of this geeky info.


Peace,
Rhino

meowstar65lg79pav405.jpg
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
The suggestion of $5000 was for the 1.12ct stone not price per carat. I suggested that because I have seen a somewhat similar cut stone on Rhino's site, but it is an H VS1(2?) and 1.23ct for around $5800. Our stone was more than that..around the $7k range but we bought it via a retailer as opposed to online. Also recently 'ready' (the name of the poster) got a 1.30c shallow large tabled stone and he paid around $6900 I think. His was a G, VS I believe, but then the appraiser said it was an F (extra bonus!). The posts were a few weeks ago. So using his pricing for a 1.3c and Rhino's 1.23c similar stone pricing, I would lightly estimate around the $5k range..maybe $5500.

Just don't overpay too much for the stone..I think we paid a little much for ours but again.. it was through a retailer and it was a jeweler we have worked with before type-thing, so we knew we were probably paying a little more, but we do most of our jewelry business with this guy and he stands by all of his work. So for the long-term cleanings, modifications, tightening of prongs, etc we knew he would cover us.

If the price is around $7k, check out 'ideal' cut stones on Pricescope using the 'cut quality' search tool to see what sort of stone you could get for that. If it turns out that he wants $7k for this stone, and you can get an ideal cut stone G, VS1 around 1.10ct with an online vendor, then I would not suggest paying $7k for this shallower stone. These cut of stones normally are more discounted than ideal cuts, and the retailer should recognize that when he prices the stone.

Good luck, let us know more when you see the stone. See if the jeweler will let you take some pictures, or if he has any IdealScope images etc. Or if you have your own IdealScope, take it in and look for yourself!

Can anyone else suggest on pricing??
 

meow4444

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
50
Hi all,

Visited the dealer and saw the diamond. As Mara and Gary said, it looks big (wide) but there is not much 'brightness' of it.

He quoted a price of USD6,400 and would not budge. Is that a fair price?!?!? (specs above)

As I have mentioned, the diamond was sent for re-polishing. It was originally 1.27ct but it is now 1.12ct. About 0.15 carats was lost. I have a feeling I am 'absorbing' the loss of this 0.15 carat. Is he charging me as if he was selling 1.27ct?

Also the original colour of the stone was H. After repolishing it became a G. Should I get a second opinion on the colour?

I need to make up my mind within the next 2 days. Help!!!
 

justme

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
184
Assuming that this stone was originally certed - Has the vendor sent this stone back to the lab to be re-certed and verified the color?

If you rerun the HCA scores (there were some modifications made to the calculations) you will see that it now scores a 2.1 (worth buying if the price is right).

What are your priorities (in order from the 4 c's and price) in picking a stone?
 

meow4444

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
50
The dealer did not send the diamond back to the same grading lab because he said the queue was too long. He sent it to another (IGI). The colour went up by a grade. He did suggest that we should bring it back to the original grading lab.

My priority is definitely the cut. (but obviously the price is a factor too). For a cut that has a table of 62.3, I expected the price to be lower than what he charged me. He is charging me $6400.

Do you agree with me? Is that a fair price?
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
I think you are paying too much for that stone. Also IGI in the past has been known to be 'looser' on it's grading which is possibly why the diamond went from an H to a G. As far as I know..diamonds do not change color over time, so once a diamond is a color, its that color for life. But grading labs will view colors of stones differently, its all subjective.

If you are interested in a stone with the same specs, H, VS2...larger table, shallower depth, Rhino/Jonathan has a stone on goodoldgold.com that is 1.23c for around $5900. $500 less than you are paying for this stone, and his has all the reports for BrillianceScope, IdealScope, Sarin/Megascope, closeups of the stone, the certificate (I think it was GIA or AGS), etc. Check it out...surf his site under 'ForSale' and then in the '1.00-1.49c' area it is the 1.23 H VS2 stone. Just figured I'd mention it since it sounds like you are getting practically the same stone, but for more money and with less carat weight through this dealer you are working with.

If you don't see brightness in this particular stone you are considering, why are you still considering it? Personally it sounds like for $6400 you could get alot more, possibly even a 1.10 H VS2 'ideal' dimensioned cut if you looked hard enough. Or get a discount and do something like Rhino's stone. I would definitely keep looking and do not let this dealer pressure you into a sale (the whole 'you only have 2 days to buy'). There are many diamonds out there, this potential transaction sounds like it has too many red flags for you to buy with confidence.

Whatever you choose, good luck!!
 

meow4444

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
50
Thanks for your help Mara. I think you are right to ask why I am considering a stone that I think does not shine....personally I do not fancy it that much but we are very much restricted by what we have over here.

The reason why we are considering that stone is because we are based in Europe. Financially, it makes more sense for us to just drive to the dealer (Antwerp). Coming over to America is not economically feasible(at least for the moment). As for Internet purchasing, America seem to have very good deals but my significant other is hesitant about spending $6500 buying over the internet.

So we are really in a catch-22 situation.....

I dont really know what to do...and I definitely dont want to end up over-paying for a stone that I dont LOVE.

I am looking for a G, VS2 in the price region of $6500.
Preferably an ideal cut and approx 1.01 ct (and above).

If anyone can help me find one that is of better quality than the one I am offered by the dealer + with a well-known and reputable Internet dealer ="="> I might just be able to convince my significant other!!!

Thanks!!

Can anyone help?!?
 

divergrrl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
2,224
There are a lot of places to look for good deals on diamonds. Online, in stores, in the newspaper classifieds. People here seem to do well with Whiteflash.com & dirtcheapdiamonds.com. David Atlas helped me find some accent diamonds and I saved some serious money. Just be patient and take the time to look around. The time flies, honestly. It's taken me 3 months to get my entire ring squared away, and Mara posted about 500+ times (just kiddin' chica!) :) but before you know it you will have a killer stone.

I wish we would have known about this site before I got engaged, I could have done some MAJOR homework first. But for the future, this is a good place to start your shopping.

Good luck & happy hunting!

Divergrrl.

(I am in no way affiliated with any vendor mentioned, nor have I purchased from them, just another jewelry obsessed woman with a PC--Gracias!)
 

meow4444

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
50
THANKS GARRY!!!

Your help will be very much appreciated.
We cannot offer Belgian beer here but you will be offered a Guinness!

I will send you a personal mail in a few minutes!

 

meow4444

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
50
Hey thanks everyone!

Tp be honest, I have learnt so much about diamonds over the past month or two. If I had not chanced upon this website, I would have ended up paying $6500 for the diamond offered by the dealer in Antwerp and feeling it was the best purchase in the world!! (He seem to be a bit impatient that I was asking questions and I knew what I wanted..hee!)

I am hoping I will not turn out like Divergirl or Mara....OBSESSED! Ha! (just messing)

I am trying my very best to convince my significant other to buy over the Internet because as I have mentioned, he feels insecure about spending that kind of money over the Internet.

Hopefully Garry will be able to help.

Cheers!
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Meow--my SO was leery about purchasing online but I am a big fan of the internet and so that is where we were heading until we got our local jeweler to price match. However, once he saw all the information that can be had on the internet (e.g. Sarin/Megascope/OGI reporting, the cert copy, closeups of the stones/magnification, BrillianceScope reporting etc), he was actually pretty impressed. Also we were only working with an online vendors who had good return policies so that gave him an extra level of security. So here are my two cents on offline vs. online and talking your sweetie into online.


Offline you can see the stones in person and somehow that gives us all a better sense of security as it's a tangible asset you can hold in your hand and you trust your eyes. Shaking the jeweler's hand somewhow makes you feel like they are trustworthy and looking out for your best interests. Other than not being able to see the diamond when purchasing online, you already know that there can be spectacular deals to be had, and there are many reputable dealers that people buy from all the time here on Pricescope. I would focus on online dealers who are willing to work with you, have good reporting on their stones, and have good return policies (e.g. 30 days no questions asked). Most of the dealers who get customers from Pricescope know how picky these customers are and are willing to take the extra time to ensure that the purchase is agreeable to everyone. That is one of the benefits in my mind of this forum and having vendors who know about it or are associated with it (e.g. like the search result vendors). While Pricescope does not recommend the vendors officially, you have seen the likes of WhiteFlash, GoodOldGold, DiamondOptics, DirtCheapDiamonds, SuperbCert, ACutAbove, NiceIce, etc discussed many a time I am sure.

One of the things that really is glaring to me is the sales process online vs offline. Offline they feel as though they don't have to show you anything other than the stone and the certification, if even that. 'What do you mean Sarin? What do you mean BrilliantScope? What is that weird looking pink tool anyway? Don't you trust me? Look at this beautiful 63% table, 55% depth stone--see how it shines? Pay me $8000. I'm a Graduate GIA Gemologist!' You probably won't see a dossier report on the stone you are looking at, with 5-10 different reports run on it. Offline vendors for the most part do not need that information to sell a stone to a physically present buyer. But online we are spoiled, and we should be. If you can't see the diamond in person, that diamond dossier report folder is the next best thing, and many people have been very impressed when they finally see the result in their hot little hands.

So the point of my big long ramble (boy I'm turning into Tim except much less coherent!!) is really that offline gives a false sense of security that can sometimes get you into trouble. Look at what you just said about buying that stone that you kinda didn't really like...you would have had you not had the advice on this forum to fall back on. That is the majority of diamond buyers out there unfortunately. Use your leg up and buy online if your retail options are severely limited. In this world of eCommerce, many sites can ship overseas and have no problems doing so. I understand your SO's hesitation at dropping $6k online, mine was the same way. But he was very close to doing so until we found the stone we loved offline. It just worked out that way. But the point is that you have other options, utilize all of them and get yourself the best deal, then cover yourself with a strong return policy and an independent appraisal to confirm what you already know. Good luck...

BTW...I can think of worse things to be obsessed with than shiny, sparkly diamonds!! HeeHee.
 

divergrrl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
2,224
Mara,

It's happened, you have turned into Tim.



D-grrl
 

photogold

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
31
----------------
On 2/3/2003 7:26:20 AM meow4444 wrote:

He sent it to another (IGI). The colour went up by a grade.
----------------
The color is what it is. Maybe IGI says it is a G, but it is still an H. That is further proof that IGI is not as reliable as GIA or AGS.

Your can do better pricewise.
 

photogold

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
31
----------------
On 2/3/2003 7:26:20 AM meow4444 wrote:

He sent it to another (IGI). The colour went up by a grade.
----------------
The color is what it is. Maybe IGI says it is a G, but it is still an H. That is further proof that IGI is not as reliable as GIA or AGS.

Your can do better pricewise.
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
I don't want to play IGI's advocate, but sometimes, when you repolish a diamond, the color goes up or down(usually not more than one grade). Also, keep in mind that color is subjective and is determined by the eye of the grader, so one grade difference isn't that much. I suggest you to send the diamond to the lab which graded it for first.


Giangi
 

meow4444

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
50
Hi all,

First of all, thanks to Garry who introduced a great contact in Antwerp to me. Paul is genuine and he is informative as well.


He has recommended the following to me. What do you all think of it? It is a super-ideal and H&A (I think)as well. Even without seeing the stone, I can see that it is a far greater stone than the previous stone I posted on this forum. I hope I am right.

Hey all, have a look and let me know what you think!!! (I attached it as txt file. Hope it comes up right!!!)

Thanks!!
 

Attachments

meow4444

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
50
Hi all,

Sorry the attachement did not turn out great but still ok....hope you are able to read it!!!

Cheerios!
 

justme

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
184
Looks like a much better stone from the numbers!

Way to go Gary!


Congrats meow4444
 

meow4444

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 20, 2002
Messages
50
Thanks!
I surely hope that it will be a sparkling baby!

I will have to see it first and then I will let you all know if I am blown away by it!


So, any more comments about the specs of the diamond?!?
 
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