Your opinion on Native Cuts stones

[gsellis]

OK, you caught me. I was born in Florida and moved to Georgia, so I am not native.

What we are calling native cut is probably a big misnomer. Some of the material is cut local to the mines. But much of it goes elsewhere to be cut. The profit is in the gemstone. So, much of the good stuff it cut locally or in lots which accounts. It can be cut quickly by an assembly line on jambpeg machines. And except for the more exceptional material, it spends very little time being evaluated.

The color comes from having first and second pick on the good stuff. When the good rough gets here, we usually have to pay the same price as the cut stones or play the third string. But, we can make award winning movies with the third string winning the pennant. Consider that a fine tourmaline is $50-100/ct for the rough. I am probably only going to get 25% return on the cut. That makes the finished stone, at cost, now about $200-400/ct. And the ''native'' one is selling for $100-200/ct.

Since you are usually buying these stones one at a time with like-cut stones. If you were to take the same material and spend more time on the cut, then you were asked to pick out the prettiest ones laying together on a table, you would pick the optimal cuts. There is a noticable difference side by side. But they are rarely side by side. Furthermore, that is why you see so many high facet "portuguese" style cuts. A lot of facets can hide a lot of things in the display it gives.

So, guess why I do novelty cuts and custom cutting for folks that found their rough

 

[gsellis]

Date: 4/16/2010 2:09:13 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
We have this discussion every few months it seems.

While in Africa last summer, I saw a few ''native'' cutters, and they were all using US made Facetron faceting machines. The very same machine that many of the cutters here use. I didn''t see any jam peg cutters. Now the work they were doing on these machines was not as good as what you would expect from the cutters you see around here. They would use a coarser polish, and work faster, so the meet points are not as close or crisp, and I expect they don''t have access to as many designs, so they basically cut step cuts.

Dang it.... I am trying to remember who that was. I think one of the William Holland faceting teachers was part of that project. They went overseas and taught faceting on modern equipment. It is a wonderful project because it helps build industry. It is the infrastructure and know-how that bets poverty and exploitation every time.

And if anyone has any doubts, Johnny Tew did a demonstration last year on a Fac-ette. He cut a 7mm standard round brilliant in 24 minutes. That is transferred and polished (Cerium). Of course, with that record attempt, to save time, he used a trim saw to cut off the first dop... *

* note - if you are interested in that, go to youtube, look for my user name here and look for FFF2 Johnny Tew speed cutting talk.

 

[Jim Rentfrow]

Are you guys referring to cutters who have been trained by SEAMIC in Africa? I know SEAMIC does some training on various machines for people who want to become lapidaries.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi All,

I just came back from a jeweler. I wanted him to look at two demantoid garnets I received from Thailand. One was a round(I''m into rounds at ths time) and one was a pear shape. I wanted to make sure I was making a good decision by keeping the stones. I thought the native cuts looked much better than other stones I have purchased. The pear stone was very crisp looking with no window and clean. They are native cut stones but look very nice. He said I should keep the pear, very well cut, and the diamond cut on the round was also good, but not as good as the pear. It was very good to hear the cutting on these stones was good. I was happy and will keep the stones.

Dear Gene.

I have looked at your stones and found many to be beautiful. I think you are right in saying that your fancier cutting goes to jewelers who do custom work. It is the one reason I haven''t bought from you. When I see these cuts, I think Oh, my, I will need a custom done piece and I don''t want to spend that kind of money. Nowadays, the settings can cost more than the stone. For me, I don''t like that. But I like your work.

Thanks,

 

[Barrett]

well the "native" cutter generally don''t use 50K or 100K or higher polish so that right there makes the stones inferior..lets less light in..what is a FACETED gemstones main purpose..to twinkle and sparkle..so optimum angles, tight meet points, and well done polish will stand out much more so than a ''native" cut considering all other thing equal(color and such)..gotta have that light reflected and bounced around as best it can..if not for that, might as well just buy cabs and sugarloaves i must also add that asscher cut you guys always be buying..sure has grown on me..that cut right there can make a light or les than good colored stone much better just due to the cool desgn of the cut

 

[PrecisionGem]

Date: 4/16/2010 4:38:34 PM
Author: smitcompton
Hi All,


I just came back from a jeweler. I wanted him to look at two demantoid garnets I received from Thailand. One was a round(I''m into rounds at ths time) and one was a pear shape. I wanted to make sure I was making a good decision by keeping the stones. I thought the native cuts looked much better than other stones I have purchased. The pear stone was very crisp looking with no window and clean. They are native cut stones but look very nice. He said I should keep the pear, very well cut, and the diamond cut on the round was also good, but not as good as the pear. It was very good to hear the cutting on these stones was good. I was happy and will keep the stones.


Dear Gene.



I have looked at your stones and found many to be beautiful. I think you are right in saying that your fancier cutting goes to jewelers who do custom work. It is the one reason I haven''t bought from you. When I see these cuts, I think Oh, my, I will need a custom done piece and I don''t want to spend that kind of money. Nowadays, the settings can cost more than the stone. For me, I don''t like that. But I like your work.


Thanks,

I think your are right about the the worry of a custom setting. I had a jeweler back in Buffalo who would however fit just about any of exotic cut stones into a standard mount.

 

[PumpkinPie]

there''s a lot of visual appeal to precision cut stones, but definitely a huge spirit of craftmanship with native cut stones. For me, the biggest factor would probably be colour and then cut.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Date: 4/16/2010 6:52:21 PM
Author: Maevie
there''s a lot of visual appeal to precision cut stones, but definitely a huge spirit of craftmanship with native cut stones. For me, the biggest factor would probably be colour and then cut.

Could you tell me why you feel there is a "huge spirit of craftmanship" with a native cut stone? I''m assuming you don''t think there is with a precision cut stone.

Here''s a picture I took last summer in Arusha Tanzania of a local cutter. Notice he is using a Facetron faceting machine. These are pretty popular in Africa. A friend of mine who has been in Kenya involved in the gem business now for over 20 years has had several of these machines for years. I don''t use a Facetron, but a very similar type machine.

In the picture he is finished with the stone, and for some reason is polishing the girdle by holding the stone. I have no idea why, maybe after he took it off the dop he discovered something on the stone that need some touch up.

 

[PrecisionGem]

This pricelist was on his wall. It shows the cutting charge. The currency is Tanzanian shillings, where at the time 1000 shillings = $0.75 US. This is actually pretty good pay in Tanzania. If he worked a 10 hour day, and quickly, he could knock out 4 stone of around 2ct each, so 8 cts. total at $1.5 per ct, so $12 for the day. I doubt he could do 4 stones in 10 hours to the standards we would consider "precision cut" however.

 

[digitaldevo]

Date: 4/16/2010 4:38:42 PM
Author: amethystguy
well the ''native'' cutter generally don''t use 50K or 100K or higher polish so that right there makes the stones inferior

Hey now, it all depends if they are using John Bailey''s Voodoo Polish Jason, lol. That stuff is insane, 3K pre-polish puts a 14K commercial polish on a stone!! 14K Voodoo is about equal to a 50K normal diamond polish and 50K is about a normal 100K. Not sure how John does it, but wow, combine it with a BattWing and super fast stones. . But I highly doubt native cutters are using his polishes, hehe.

You knew you''d get me to join over here eventually, lol.

 

[Barrett]

got that right..tell you what..once the darkwing came and the sticks..it was like night and day on the polish

 

[iLander]

Okay, I think this needs to be said: there are different levels to all types of art. Gemstone cutting is an art. Native cuts, which are occasionally good, are generally not a high level to the art. Let''s use fine art paintings as an analogy: Some native cut stones are crude, like a folk art painting (some people like that). Some cut stones are decent quality, like those paintings you see in hotel rooms or "home decor" stores. Precision, custom cut stones belong in the MOMA.

A prerequisite for fine art (this next point is arguable among art scholars, but I''m going ahead with it) is a recognizable style. If it''s a Picasso, you''ll know it, if it''s a Monet, you can tell. A quick glance through the websites of the different cutters mentioned on this forum will show how different their approach and their results really are. Each has a style as unique as a fingerprint and they are not interchangeable. Native cut stones are interchangeable.

An artist transcends his medium and Brings Something New to IT. A beautifully cut sapphire is more than a sum of it''s chemicals, it''s beyond that. The vast majority of native cuts, or mass-produced stones, are simply stones, their beauty is no more than the stone itself. Just like a hotel room painting will never take your breathe away, most native cut stones will never EXCEED the beauty of the material. A truly crafted precision stone will be more beautiful than the stone itself.

When I purchase diamonds, I''m very careful to look for excellent symmetry and polish. I know that this will give me the maximum return of color and light. Colored Gemstones are exactly the same way. I would rather pay a premium for one good stone a year, instead of spreading my money around among several mediocre stones. What''s the point, if it''s not SPECTACULAR?

Just my personal opinion.

 

[chrono]

iLander,
I disagree with your opinion because with diamonds, there is no colour to speak off. In fact, with diamonds, the cutter wants to downplay the colour as much as possible, with the exception of coloured diamonds. Therefore they must be cut to super ideal precision in order to get maximum light performance. With coloured stones, colour is first and foremost, and sets the price. Unfortunately, most precision cutters are not able to get their hands on extremely fine quality material, and as such, collectors and consumers are left with native cut gemstones that range from poor to very good cutting.

 

[ruffysdad]

It''s pretty simple as far as I''m concerned. There are well cut "native" cuts that are ready for mounting and the badly cut ones that make great preforms. A lot of the better cut ones still have that very low table that I personally don''t care for but as long as there''s little to no window and isn''t U-shaped on the pavillion, I usually dont mess with them.

Pete

 

[PrecisionGem]

Date: 5/24/2010 11:34:23 AM
Author: Chrono
iLander,

I disagree with your opinion because with diamonds, there is no colour to speak off. In fact, with diamonds, the cutter wants to downplay the colour as much as possible, with the exception of coloured diamonds. Therefore they must be cut to super ideal precision in order to get maximum light performance. With coloured stones, colour is first and foremost, and sets the price. Unfortunately, most precision cutters are not able to get their hands on extremely fine quality material, and as such, collectors and consumers are left with native cut gemstones that range from poor to very good cutting.

I guess you knew I''d disagree...

I have never cut a diamond, but I have cut CZ, which has similar optical properties to a diamond. The truth is, it''s hard to cut a CZ that doesn''t perform well. With high refractive material, and material with high dispersion, even a poor cut looks great. It''s much more important on low refractive index to material to get a good cut to make the stone perform at all. Cutting quality is much less important in a diamond than it is in a colored stone. I think the reason so much is made of the cut in a diamond is there isn''t much left to talk about other than clarity.

As far as cutters getting their hands on top material, that is true for the "Big Three" (Ruby, sapphire, emerald), but for almost every other stone it isn''t true. The tourmalines, garnets, spinel, apatite, fireopal, citrine, amethyst, aquamarine and others that most cutters in the business, (not hobby cutters) are cutting are often extremely high quality and much better than what you typically see. There is also a popular cutter mentioned often here that does a lot of recutting of sapphires, so he is taking native cut stones, making them a bit smaller, but much more beautiful, and selling them at a higher cost. So there must be some value added in the cutting, if the re-cut stone sells for a higher price than the original.

 

[LD]

There is a market for both precision cut and "native" cut gemstones. Some of the very very very best gemstones I''ve seen are what would be considered "native" cuts. Would I pass one by because of the cut? Absolutely not. Whether the gem has been faceted by a machine or by hand or by a monkey on a spinning wheel, I don''t care!

If I have two gemstones, exactly the same carat weight, the same shape but one is a "native" cut and the other precision cut, which will I buy? The one with the best colour.

 

[iLander]

But isn''t the purpose of a good cut enhance the color? To bring More out of the material? Why waste good material on a mediocre cut?

I have a native cut color change garnet that will change color regardless of the cut. But I will soon (after some saving) be seeking a recut on it. It''s pretty, but not spectacular. Why not have it be the best that it can be?

Does it really come down to how picky a buyer is?

Maybe I''ll post some before and after pix of the color change garnet recut.

But are we sure these are all "native" cuts? Isn''t a lot of this done in factories? In China, these days?

 

[PrecisionGem]

Much of the cutting is done in China and India, in assembly line type cutting.

One person preforms, one dops, one cuts the pavilion etc.

I know a guy who owns a Chinese cutting house, in an 8 hour shift each person works on 30 stones minimum. In 8 hours I could cut 2 stones, maybe 3 if they were simple designs like a round. I''m working on an emerald right now that I have spent hours just deciding how I''ll dop it.

Question for "LovingDiamonds". You stated: "If I have two gemstones, exactly the same carat weight, the same shape but one is a "native" cut and the other precision cut, which will I buy? The one with the best colour."

What if the color was the same, then which one would you buy?

What if the color was the same, the shape the same, the price the same, but the native cut weighed a bit more, the precision cut had more sparkle and flash, then which would you buy?

 

[LD]

Date: 5/24/2010 4:45:59 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
Much of the cutting is done in China and India, in assembly line type cutting.

One person preforms, one dops, one cuts the pavilion etc.

I know a guy who owns a Chinese cutting house, in an 8 hour shift each person works on 30 stones minimum. In 8 hours I could cut 2 stones, maybe 3 if they were simple designs like a round. I'm working on an emerald right now that I have spent hours just deciding how I'll dop it.

Question for 'LovingDiamonds'. You stated: 'If I have two gemstones, exactly the same carat weight, the same shape but one is a 'native' cut and the other precision cut, which will I buy? The one with the best colour.'

What if the color was the same, then which one would you buy?

What if the color was the same, the shape the same, the price the same, but the native cut weighed a bit more, the precision cut had more sparkle and flash, then which would you buy?

Easy. The one I liked best and of course price comes into it too. I wouldn't go out of my way to buy a precision or native cut. I buy what I like.

If everything is the same (including price) I would still buy the one I like. I'm not a precision cut snob. I don't care about precision cutting. I buy what I like and THAT is what draws me to a stone. So I'm afraid the precision -v- native cut debate is lost on me because I won't limit myself one way or the other!

iLander - this is a "native" cut. I wouldn't change it for the world. Tell me how the colour could be improved on this stone? One other thing to mention, there have been numerous instances (with photos on this forum if you search) where a recut has actually affected the colour negatively. I would never intentionally buy a gem for a recut as there are too many variables.

 

[LD]

Let me ask those who favour precision cut gems ................

You have the opportunity to buy a 2.1ct Alexandrite of exceptional colour change. The gem comes with a report so you know it''s natural etc etc. It''s a native cut with an off centre culet. Changing the cut won''t affect the colour change. Would you recut the stone to give it a precision cut thereby potentially losing weight so it becomes a sub 2ct gemstone?

 

[T L]

Date: 5/24/2010 5:31:38 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Let me ask those who favour precision cut gems ................

You have the opportunity to buy a 2.1ct Alexandrite of exceptional colour change. The gem comes with a report so you know it's natural etc etc. It's a native cut with an off centre culet. Changing the cut won't affect the colour change. Would you recut the stone to give it a precision cut thereby potentially losing weight so it becomes a sub 2ct gemstone?

I don't favor precision cut gems, but I think some are very beautiful, but I'd like to answer your question if I may.

No way, I won't even recut my 3.01 plain ordinary chyrsoberyl since it's got great color and it's on the 3 carat mark, and I might ruin the color by doing so. However, that being said, if I had a greyish blue spinel that didn't have the greatest color in the world, and was a bad native cut, I might consider a recut because I don't have much to lose there. Blue spinels are one of those gems that really look awesome when they're cut well, and they're well priced too!!

 

[jstarfireb]

Date: 5/24/2010 5:31:38 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Let me ask those who favour precision cut gems ................


You have the opportunity to buy a 2.1ct Alexandrite of exceptional colour change. The gem comes with a report so you know it''s natural etc etc. It''s a native cut with an off centre culet. Changing the cut won''t affect the colour change. Would you recut the stone to give it a precision cut thereby potentially losing weight so it becomes a sub 2ct gemstone?

Depends on how bad the cutting is, but I think an off-center culet would drive me crazy. I would weigh it against the risk of breaking the stone or something else going wrong during cutting. But in the hypothetical situation in which we''re solely talking about weight loss vs. cutting style, I''d definitely go for the recut. Granted, I also don''t place any stock in meeting particular carat weights, so a sub-2ct is no different to me than an above 2ct stone. Most of my stones are below 1ct.

 

[T L]

Date: 5/24/2010 5:54:01 PM
Author: jstarfireb

Date: 5/24/2010 5:31:38 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Let me ask those who favour precision cut gems ................


You have the opportunity to buy a 2.1ct Alexandrite of exceptional colour change. The gem comes with a report so you know it''s natural etc etc. It''s a native cut with an off centre culet. Changing the cut won''t affect the colour change. Would you recut the stone to give it a precision cut thereby potentially losing weight so it becomes a sub 2ct gemstone?

Depends on how bad the cutting is, but I think an off-center culet would drive me crazy. I would weigh it against the risk of breaking the stone or something else going wrong during cutting. But in the hypothetical situation in which we''re solely talking about weight loss vs. cutting style, I''d definitely go for the recut. Granted, I also don''t place any stock in meeting particular carat weights, so a sub-2ct is no different to me than an above 2ct stone. Most of my stones are below 1ct.

What if the value significantly decreases below the 2 carat mark though. For some gems, that is something to really consider with a recut.

 

[LD]

Date: 5/24/2010 5:57:35 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 5/24/2010 5:54:01 PM
Author: jstarfireb

Date: 5/24/2010 5:31:38 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Let me ask those who favour precision cut gems ................


You have the opportunity to buy a 2.1ct Alexandrite of exceptional colour change. The gem comes with a report so you know it''s natural etc etc. It''s a native cut with an off centre culet. Changing the cut won''t affect the colour change. Would you recut the stone to give it a precision cut thereby potentially losing weight so it becomes a sub 2ct gemstone?

Depends on how bad the cutting is, but I think an off-center culet would drive me crazy. I would weigh it against the risk of breaking the stone or something else going wrong during cutting. But in the hypothetical situation in which we''re solely talking about weight loss vs. cutting style, I''d definitely go for the recut. Granted, I also don''t place any stock in meeting particular carat weights, so a sub-2ct is no different to me than an above 2ct stone. Most of my stones are below 1ct.

What if the value significantly decreases below the 2 carat mark though. For some gems, that is something to really consider with a recut.

And that''s exactly my point! The difference in price changes dramatically. Alexandrites aren''t valued on their cut. Colour change and weight rank more than cut. Obviously cut is important because if it looks like a dog''s breakfast then nobody will love it anyway but some gemstones, even if they would improve with a bit of tweaking, are best left well alone!

 

[jstarfireb]

Right, but I'm never going to resell it or treat it as an investment, so provided I didn't pay an arm and a leg for it, I'm ok with a drop in value. Now I can't say I've ever seen a precision-cut alex, so maybe it won't look that great, but I'm pretty sure I'd prefer it over a lot of the lopsided or windowed native cuts.

 

[LD]

Date: 5/24/2010 6:20:20 PM
Author: jstarfireb
Right, but I'm never going to resell it or treat it as an investment, so provided I didn't pay an arm and a leg for it, I'm ok with a drop in value. Now I can't say I've ever seen a precision-cut alex, so maybe it won't look that great, but I'm pretty sure I'd prefer it over a lot of the lopsided or windowed native cuts.

That's really interesting - and proves that we all appreciate different things for different reasons. It's a good job otherwise we'd all be fighting to buy the same things!

You see, I'd NEVER in a million years have this gem recut because (a) it's a valuable and rarer than average gemstone and (b) it's only gem nuts like us that would notice the off centre culet and (c) I wouldn't accept the decrease in value for such a gemstone!

Horses for courses!

By the way, I don't think I've ever seen a precision cut Alex either because they tend to be cut for weight because of the rarity of the material I suspect! I've seen some wonderfully cut native gemstones - you may remember the pear that used to be in my avatar - that's one that I would put in that class.

 

[iLander]

I had the opportunity to purchase a 1.5 ct mediocre emerald cut diamond for the same price as a 1.38 with an excellent cut. I chose the excellent cut. With certain cuts, the precision is more important than with other cuts: emerald and asscher depend on the light bouncing around inside the stone and the angles must be perfect to give it that "hall of mirrors" look.

If you ever look through gem auctions on Sotheby''s website, the term "bright and lively stones" is coveted, and given out sparingly, but it is noted. I suspect that given their experience with color and stones, that even they are impressed with a good cut.

As far as the alexandrite, a stone of that value absolutely deserves a precision cut, no question. I would have no trouble passing it on to an experienced cutter for enhancement. I''ll never have to make that decision, though LOL

I also feel that I never intend to resell any of my stones. But objects have a life of their own, often beyond our lifespans. All those antique stores are full of stuff that people bought as everyday objects, and now their objects "live" beyond them. I think that''s actually a good thing, and a nice way for people to remember you.

Loving Diamonds: Beautiful stone! Nice ring! I think I did say at the beginning that a good native cut stone does happen, as an exception. Very saturated stone, in a nice round cut.

I''ll ask the cutters out there: which cuts are more difficult to do well? Which are easier? I''ve seen so many bad native cushions and ovals, are those difficult?

 

[iLander]

Hey Tourmaline Lover: Nice tesseract, does that mean you prefer your gems cut in four dimensions?

LOL

 

[PrecisionGem]

Beautiful color on the blue sapphire, but I think a better cut could have made a more lively interesting stone. Looks to me that the crown angles are wrong.

To answer iLander; rounds are the fastest, easiest stones to cut. The less symmetry a stone has the longer it takes to cut. For example pear shapes or heart shapes. One large facet polishes much slower than 4 smaller ones, so stones like a Portuguese round are smart for a larger stone, as they actually cut pretty fast despite all the facets. Most commercial ovals tend to be windowed since the cuts are normally step cuts, and to keep the bow tie effect to a minimum they end up with the last tier or two way below the critical angle for the material and hence the big window.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

For me, it is not whether it is a native cut or not, but the type of cut. Many of the ones I like can be done either way, as with the ones I don''t. For example, I don''t like step cuts, which can be done either way as I understand, but I LOVE portuguese cuts which can be precision done or by hand. I also love antique jewelry, so the precision is not nearly as important to me as the character, if that makes sense.

Obviously there are good and bad of all cuts and you often just don''t know until you get it. The worst looking wedding dress I ever saw was one of those cheap knockoffs made in China and boy was it bad, strands everywhere, mismatched cuts, the works. On the other hand, my friend''s purse broke in China and we took it to the nearest guy to get fixed. It took him 10 minutes and it was the finest stiching I have ever seen and I am a trained seamstress. Quality and pride in one''s work is not location specific.