Your opinion on Native Cuts stones

[Upgradable]

Please share the reasons you like or dislike what are often referred to as native cut stones (as opposed to precision cut).

 

[Upgradable]

For many colored stones I can say that I would look for a native cut stone before a precision cut stone.

Given that the tone is well balanced and the symmetry is good, I love the mixed step cut as it draws my eye into the depths of the stone and always keeps me guessing regarding when and where a flash of color or brilliance is going to hit my eye.

I am, however, always wary of the potential windowing or extinction that can come with these stones. I also find that a fat belly (though maybe necessary for color intensity) makes a native cut inherently hard to set in stock mountings.

Does anyone else have opinions on this?

 

[LtlFirecracker]

First, I always buy for color first, cut is really not a priority for me with colored stones. So if a stone has a great color, and their are no major flaws with the cut, I really don't care if it is precision cut or native cut.

I like my native cut stones because I think they look more natural and the stones and the stones tend to have an individual character. I find the stones can start looking like clones of each other with the precision cuts. I don't like windows, extinction ect. But I have a few stones that from Swala that do not have any of those negative features.

I like precision cut stones because they are interesting. My spess is a Richard Homer precision cut, and I love the fact it was cut to enhance the "glow." I think the facets are amazing. I love my stones cut by Berry because they seem to have the best of both types of stones.

 

[FrekeChild]

I love sparkles. And precision cut stones are (almost) always sparkly.

 

[T L]

Well, there's horrid native cuts, good native cuts, and great native cuts. I've also seen not so great precision cutting. I think Gene once said that one of the hardest parts to cutting a stone is getting maximum light return (Gene, correct me if I'm wrong). I have some native cut stones that would be dead ringers for precision cut stones to a non-lapidary. IMHO just like with color, get a stone that has a cut pleasing to your eye. If you find you cannot tolerate anything less than perfect facet meets, and top notch perfect proportions, than stick with some excellent precision faceters. Sometimes you cannot get a top color stone in a precision cut though, the material is always cut in the native land, and the cost to cut it would be too high if it's a valuable stone. Some high quality sapphires and rubies come to mind there.

These are all native cut and inexpensive spinels, and some have better cuts than others, but I am pleased with the quality of cutting on them. Nothing super fancy and artistic, but I think they are pleasing, and no windows.

 

[PinkTower]

Last year I even had my first native recut commissioned. I had it custom set, and the artisan did comment that the stone was "a bit wonky."

The stone wasn''t super expensive, about $400 if I recall. I am in awe of the person who can cut with a dop and a wheel. There is a certain romance about it. Also, it is a way to give back in some way. My dealer found the person who did the recut for me. He had used him before, and he commented to me that the money would feed this cutter''s family for a good while.

I have wondered whether the precision cutters would be able to cut (without their machines) as well as the native cutters.

 

[Upgradable]

Date: 4/15/2010 9:04:08 PM
Author: Pink Tower
Last year I even had my first native recut commissioned. I had it custom set, and the artisan did comment that the stone was ''a bit wonky.''

The stone wasn''t super expensive, about $400 if I recall. I am in awe of the person who can cut with a dop and a wheel. There is a certain romance about it. Also, it is a way to give back in some way. My dealer found the person who did the recut for me. He had used him before, and he commented to me that the money would feed this cutter''s family for a good while.

I have wondered whether the precision cutters would be able to cut (without their machines) as well as the native cutters.

You made a point that I forgot about. My love for vintage jewelery comes into play because I so appreciate the artisanship used to create pieces by hand. I know how much we''ve benefited by the industrial revolution, but there is nothing that compares to a person lovingly crafting something by hand!

 

[Indylady]

I tend to favor precision cut gems, but I find it a slow process to find pieces that I want. Its easier to find a native cut stone in various colors (and a color that I want) simply because there are many times more native cut stones than there are precision cut stones. It really depends on the quality of the native cut.

 

[Arcadian]

Most of my stones are whats considered native cut but I''m ok with that. I buy what I like. I have some precison cut stones which also are very nice.

My first rule of thumb is color. I have to like the color above anything else. Then I look at the cut. If the cut isn''t obnoxious and I can live with it, I do.


-A

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

The only stones I''ve ever bought have been precision cuts and I''m definitely spoiled. I love symmetry and sparkles - I don''t think I could deal with native cuts.

 

[ma re]

Date: 4/15/2010 8:02:10 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker
First, I always buy for color first, cut is really not a priority for me with colored stones. So if a stone has a great color, and their are no major flaws with the cut, I really don''t care if it is precision cut or native cut.

I like my native cut stones because I think they look more natural and the stones and the stones tend to have an individual character. I find the stones can start looking like clones of each other with the precision cuts. I don''t like windows, extinction ect. But I have a few stones that from Swala that do not have any of those negative features.

I like precision cut stones because they are interesting. My spess is a Richard Homer precision cut, and I love the fact it was cut to enhance the ''glow.'' I think the facets are amazing. I love my stones cut by Berry because they seem to have the best of both types of stones.

A bit ditto. I have a feeling precision cutters could cut unlimited numbers of virtually indistingusihable stones if provided with enough rough material. And to me that seems too much like mass production (I know it''s not, but it''s my impression). Facet patterns that are too ordered also clash with my (very traditional) view of gemstones as products of nature with individual characters and appeal, while ordering a "tailored" stone cut by customer''s specifications reminds me too much of ordering costume jewellery from catalogs ("I''d like item number 4385 in the size X and color 3, two pieces please"). I prefer precision cutting for white diamonds and native cutting for colored stones.

P. S. Written above are just my general ideas, this doesen''t mean I love every piece of native cut gemstone or that I don''t like any of the precision cut ones.

 

[chrono]

Because there are different cut qualities of native cutting, I’d like to preface that my strong preference is for well cut native stones, meaning no zoning, minor to no extinction, small to no window, and no symmetry issues. I’m not fussed on poor meet points that I cannot see with the naked eye but it needs a decent level of polish. Because colour is my top criteria when it comes to coloured gemstones, it so happens that far more well cut native stones fit into this category than precision cut stones.

 

[serenitydiamonds]

In my experience the higher quality material is usually cut better by the 'natives' as they have generations of experience optimizing the effective color of the gem. I think, for non-ideal color material, precision cuts can bring life to an otherwise uninteresting color. For top color material, I find precision brilliant'ed stones distracting and precision step cuts at times very interesting with a lot of life. For some high quality material, the window and extinctions are balanced to adjust the overall color appearance of the stone, so you have to be extremely careful trying to remove them. Color stones for me are all about color, not ideal light return. Ideal light return is saved for diamonds where it is extremely important to the performance of the diamond. Naturally, it's my personal opinion and it's been a seriously heated discussion on both side of the spectrum.;')


--Joshua

 

[T L]

Emeralds are a good example of a stone that I wouldn't want a fancy precision cut on. I prefer the native step traditional emerald cut because those stones, in their finest qualtiy, are all about color. Just look at Joshua's avatar, who cares if that stone is precision cut, I love it the way it is!!

That being said, I had an Afghan tourmaline precision cut recently, and I love the cutting on it. It's very fancy, and the high crown, small table, and 65+ facets really enhances the sparkle factor on a low RI stone such as tourmaline. It reminds me of a merelani mint garnet now.

 

[PrecisionGem]

You don''t think that "precision cut" stones are cut by hand?
Has anyone one here actually watched a "native cut" stone being cut, and also a "precision cut"? Could you explain why one is hand cut and the other not?

 

[innerkitten]

I go for a stone if it looks pretty to me and I don''t judge a stone because of who cut it. However I am drawn to precision cutting. I love the even cutting and the fact that you find less extinction in many of the precision cuts. I studied art and design and detail is very important to me. I own both precision and " native" cut stones.

 

[innerkitten]

I forgot to say there is one other thing that bugs me about certain native cut stones and thats a low crown. When I''m thinking of buying a native cut the profile is always important to me.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Date: 4/16/2010 4:42:34 AM
Author: ma re

Date: 4/15/2010 8:02:10 PM

Author: LtlFirecracker

First, I always buy for color first, cut is really not a priority for me with colored stones. So if a stone has a great color, and their are no major flaws with the cut, I really don''t care if it is precision cut or native cut.


I like my native cut stones because I think they look more natural and the stones and the stones tend to have an individual character. I find the stones can start looking like clones of each other with the precision cuts. I don''t like windows, extinction ect. But I have a few stones that from Swala that do not have any of those negative features.


I like precision cut stones because they are interesting. My spess is a Richard Homer precision cut, and I love the fact it was cut to enhance the ''glow.'' I think the facets are amazing. I love my stones cut by Berry because they seem to have the best of both types of stones.

A bit ditto. I have a feeling precision cutters could cut unlimited numbers of virtually indistingusihable stones if provided with enough rough material. And to me that seems too much like mass production (I know it''s not, but it''s my impression). Facet patterns that are too ordered also clash with my (very traditional) view of gemstones as products of nature with individual characters and appeal, while ordering a ''tailored'' stone cut by customer''s specifications reminds me too much of ordering costume jewellery from catalogs (''I''d like item number 4385 in the size X and color 3, two pieces please''). I prefer precision cutting for white diamonds and native cutting for colored stones.


P. S. Written above are just my general ideas, this doesen''t mean I love every piece of native cut gemstone or that I don''t like any of the precision cut ones.

Interesting comment. If colored stones, "precision cut" are indistinguishable, and that''s a bad thing, then why would you want precision cut white diamonds? There can''t be anything more indistinguishable then a bunch of 1 ct round diamonds.

Actually, I feel about the opposite. Must native cut stone are cut the same way with a step cut pavilion. Most, not all precision cutters, use a very wide variety of designs. I have found that the more creative designs sell well with custom jewelers, but not with Pricescoper''s, who tend to prefer much more traditional cuts and of course asschers.

 

[chrono]

Date: 4/16/2010 11:11:53 AM
Author: PrecisionGem
You don''t think that ''precision cut'' stones are cut by hand?
Has anyone one here actually watched a ''native cut'' stone being cut, and also a ''precision cut''? Could you explain why one is hand cut and the other not?

Gene,
I''m not speaking for anyone here but wonder if the poster meant using only a jam peg machine.

 

[Upgradable]

Gene, my question was in regard to the traditionally held understanding of precision and native as a style. My appreciation of artisanship and individual attention to cutting a stone absolutely means an appreciation of artisan precision cutting like yours! I would be devistated if I offended you with my question or statements. The precision cutters we use and endorse on this forum are beloved for their personal touch, professionalism, and art creating a gem from a stone.

 

[LD]

Date: 4/15/2010 10:39:34 PM
Author: Arcadian
Most of my stones are whats considered native cut but I''m ok with that. I buy what I like. I have some precison cut stones which also are very nice.

My first rule of thumb is color. I have to like the color above anything else. Then I look at the cut. If the cut isn''t obnoxious and I can live with it, I do.


-A

Huge Ditto from me.

 

[jstarfireb]

Given the choice, I will usually favor precision cuts for their sparkle and interest. There''s a crispness about those exact facet meet points that makes me

. However, I''m not at all averse to a native cut (or a locally cut stone that''s not precision-cut) that''s symmetrical, non-windowed, and displays the color well. Price is usually a factor for me, and precision cuts often come with a price tag.

 

[movie zombie]

for me its all about color, minimal or no windowing, can''t abide extinction, minimal or no zoning.....so i actually don''t care whether its native or precision cut. give me the color!


mz

 

[mastercutgems]

I like all gems that are cut well, meaning no windows, razor sharp girdles, off center culets, poor polish, etc...

Some gem minerals react better with step cut pavilions than brilliant pavilions, each gem is an individual and many times us cutters will have to change our course of cutting design depending on the outcome of that cut on that particular material.

There are good native cuts and bad ones; just like good and bad precision cuts...

Whether it is a jamb peg machine or a calibrated precision mast machine they are both hand cut as you have to guide your hand down with the quill to the lap on both machine designs. Repeatability is the main thing on precision machines.

Once you can determine what makes up a bad cut; like windows, symmetry, etc. then you can make the determination of whether you like the cut or not.

Some times I have chosen the native or step cut pavilion on certain gem minerals as it just seemed to work better; but most of the time I do like the brilliant fancy cut pavilion on medium to lighter saturated gem minerals. It is just more Blingy

Just one persons opinion

But I have many " native " cut gems in my personal collection and I have been cutting for 20 years. I just know what MY eye likes and does not like; so I feel everyone should buy what they like and once you have read what is a good cut by most standards and it makes you happy every time you look at it; the gem has accomplished its goal and that was to make you happy.

Most respectfully;

 

[Lady_Disdain]

I love the crisp faceting and interesting designs that I see in precision cutting. In fact, I have several stones that I bought just because of the faceting, and not because of colour (heresy to some, I know

).

I like good native cuts as well and they do wonders for some stones. I wonder, however, if native cuts really do more for colour or whether we just see so many of the great stones in native cuts that we associate great colour with native cutting. In the end, it is all about optics and there is no "secret formula" that native cutters know. Of course, I am comparing a correct design (considering RI, path length to deepen or lighten colour) against a good native cut (no window, good simetry, etc). Seeing Jeff White''s and Richard Homer''s stones, for example, and many of the recuts really challange this assumption.

 

[Hest88]

I''m someone who prefers native cuts usually, with the assumption, of course, the cut maximizes the color. I just prefer the chunkier facets to some of the sharper facets seen in many precision cut stones. I also do prefer a "sleepier" look, often, to the flashier effects of many precision stones.

 

[PrecisionGem]

We have this discussion every few months it seems.

While in Africa last summer, I saw a few "native" cutters, and they were all using US made Facetron faceting machines. The very same machine that many of the cutters here use. I didn''t see any jam peg cutters. Now the work they were doing on these machines was not as good as what you would expect from the cutters you see around here. They would use a coarser polish, and work faster, so the meet points are not as close or crisp, and I expect they don''t have access to as many designs, so they basically cut step cuts.
Any "precision cutter", could cut exactly the same way, there are no secrets they know, that aren''t common knowledge to every cutter who has invested any time into the activity. I would venture to say the "precision cutters" know a lot more about critical angles and have access to computer simulators the can model the stone. The cutting equipment however was identical, aside from the polish. Most stones looked to be polished with a 8000 to 14000 max grit, where in the US most cutters would use 50,000 to 200,000 which gives a much smoother surface to the facet.

In other parts of the world jam peg and a modified version of a jam peg are still used.

While is sounds romantic to say that these far away places have been cutting stones for hundreds of years, the truth is many of the cutters in the east are kids, working for a nickel a day in sweat shops.

 

[ma re]

Date: 4/16/2010 11:19:07 AM
Author: PrecisionGem

Interesting comment. If colored stones, ''precision cut'' are indistinguishable, and that''s a bad thing, then why would you want precision cut white diamonds? There can''t be anything more indistinguishable then a bunch of 1 ct round diamonds.

White diamonds have an extremly high refractive index, strong dispersion, luster like no other stone and have no color - that''s why I think precision cutting is the best thing that can be done with them. So because there''s no beautiful color to bring out and there''s a great potential in bringing out the brilliance and scintillation, that is the most logical thing to do. But when it comes to colored stones, in most of them brilliance or scintillation isn''t a top criteria as many have rich and beautiful colors that can often be more captivating than either of those two. I personally am not really drawn to white diamonds and find that the best use of them is to accent colored stones. For that purpose their lively brilliance does a great job.

 

[LD]

Date: 4/16/2010 2:10:11 PM
Author: ma re

Date: 4/16/2010 11:19:07 AM
Author: PrecisionGem

Interesting comment. If colored stones, ''precision cut'' are indistinguishable, and that''s a bad thing, then why would you want precision cut white diamonds? There can''t be anything more indistinguishable then a bunch of 1 ct round diamonds.

White diamonds have an extremly high refractive index, strong dispersion, luster like no other stone and have no color - that''s why I think precision cutting is the best thing that can be done with them. So because there''s no beautiful color to bring out and there''s a great potential in bringing out the brilliance and scintillation, that is the most logical thing to do. But when it comes to colored stones, in most of them brilliance or scintillation isn''t a top criteria as many have rich and beautiful colors that can often be more captivating than either of those two. I personally am not really drawn to white diamonds and find that the best use of them is to accent colored stones. For that purpose their lively brilliance does a great job.

And personally I DON''T like precision cut diamonds. They can look wonderful in most lighting conditions but then black out in others. Of course that''s a sweeping generalisation. In white diamonds, so long as they are well cut, for me, they most definitely don''t have to be precision cut. In fact, some of the most beautiful diamonds I''ve seen are Old Mine Cuts.

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Date: 4/16/2010 2:09:13 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
We have this discussion every few months it seems.


While in Africa last summer, I saw a few ''native'' cutters, and they were all using US made Facetron faceting machines. The very same machine that many of the cutters here use. I didn''t see any jam peg cutters. Now the work they were doing on these machines was not as good as what you would expect from the cutters you see around here. They would use a coarser polish, and work faster, so the meet points are not as close or crisp, and I expect they don''t have access to as many designs, so they basically cut step cuts.

Any ''precision cutter'', could cut exactly the same way, there are no secrets they know, that aren''t common knowledge to every cutter who has invested any time into the activity. I would venture to say the ''precision cutters'' know a lot more about critical angles and have access to computer simulators the can model the stone. The cutting equipment however was identical, aside from the polish. Most stones looked to be polished with a 8000 to 14000 max grit, where in the US most cutters would use 50,000 to 200,000 which gives a much smoother surface to the facet.


In other parts of the world jam peg and a modified version of a jam peg are still used.


While is sounds romantic to say that these far away places have been cutting stones for hundreds of years, the truth is many of the cutters in the east are kids, working for a nickel a day in sweat shops.

I have a somewhat different experience, and I''m guessing it relates to the quality and value of the material worked with. Having personally worked with cutters in Colombia I strongly disagree with you. They are not working in nickel a day sweatshops, and have a strong family history in the mining and cutting of fine quality gems. I have similar experiences with Sapphires from Thailand and Burma. Fine material is very carefully planned and worked by very knowledgeable individuals. It''s too valuable to waste.

I agree with Mr Ma Re, ideal light return and brilliance is most effectively used on diamonds.

--Joshua