Yet another Pad Sapphire...

[supercheesewiz]

Hello all. I've done a bit of research on this site, and have come to appreciate the information you have to offer. I'm in the process of designing an engagement ring, and am looking for a nice blue or pad sapphire to design around it. Anyway, this stone caught my eye, and i'd thought i'd put it up for some thoughts. (I know it's a bit light, but I think the other pads maybe too intense.)

crap, just realized that a simple cut and paste doesnt work. Well, the ID is PA166 off of thenaturalsapphirecompany.com

Weight is 1.78 Ct. Pad
Price is 2225.

maybe somebody can let me know how to post the image

 

[MINE!!]

WOW>.... I am not a big sapphire fan.. but I really like this one. I defintely think it has potential for a very unique and scrumptuos creation... I love the teasing of the colors.....!!

 

[Michael_E]

Here''s that pic. Remember that those pale stones are also very bright and are really at their height in a darker environment, evening wear and such. Pretty stone !

 

[supercheesewiz]

I think you are right, this is a bright little piece. BTW, does anybody have an example of this cut of gem in a ring? I''m a little confused on what it looks like because of all the reflections. Also, does anybody know how to evaluate the quality of the cut. Mr Arnstein told me it''s an idea (perfectly) cut, but i''m not really sure what that means...

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Hi SuperCheez:

Here''s some notes I have compiled from my own research and web articles on Pad''s. Hope it helps you...

Padparadscha Notes

Name/Meaning: Color of the Lotus.

Locale: Sri Lanka, Tanzania’s Umba River, Songea, Southern Madagascar, Vietnam’s Quy Chau mines, Sri Lanka

Sri Lanka is considered the original location where these stones were sourced and thus a true padparadscha can only come from this region. In Sri Lankan stones, the fluorescence is typically apricot to red.

Tanzania’s Umba river stones often contain hues of pink-red/orange with a brown mask. Wise describes the stones as robust gong over the optimum tonal range of 30-65 %. In a previous post Wise remarks, “Darker toned pink is red and darker toned orange begins to go brown. That is pretty close to a description of a majority of the Umba River padparadschas that were available in the market about ten years ago.” Stones with too much brown and more of a medium dark tone makes them orangy/brownish red.

I have read gems which are too rich in color and that only pastel orange-pinks can be considered Padparadscha by the labs. I gues it depends on the lab and the grader?

Vietnam’s Quy Chau mines & Southern Madagascar-Vietnam produces beautiful Padparacha’s. Richard Hughes describes the best Padparadscha he has seen was unearthed from Vietnam. And finds the rich papaya pads from Vietnam and East Africa superior in beauty to those from Sri Lanka.
Others contend he spectacular “aurora” red-orange stones from Vietnam and Madagascar, even though there are no brown components in those stones, are also excluded by the AGTA definition because of their oranges of high saturation and/or dark tones

Hue & Saturation: Delicately colored “Light to medium, tones of pinkish orange, orangy-pink . From reading Padparadscha can run from a more predominant Pink with nice Yellow-Orange mixed in, to the intense pastel tones of predominantly Hot Pink with Yellow-Orange mixed in. At the other end of the color spectrum Padparadscha can run from a more predominant pastel Orange with nice Pink-Yellow mixed in, to the darker tones of Orange with Pink-Yellow mixed in. The color should come from a mix of iron, chromium and color centers.
The argument of what percentage of orange to pink hues is still a debate much like the limit a pink sapphire reaches before it’s considered or marketed as a ruby. Secondary hues exhibited can be yellow or violet. Modifiers which exist are gray and brown masks. Darker stones with a orange primary hue often display a brown mask and stones which consist of a pink primary hue often display a gray mask. Gems displaying orange primary hues might shade into brown.
Sapphire is a dichroic stone and padparadscha often consist of a mixture of hues where the gem divides refracted white light into two rays (colors) The color present maybe yellow as a secondary hue. In an optimum example the colors are distinct, but should me blended well. The uniformity of the blended hues is what is emphasized in being considered optimal. The colors should blend so that it is difficult to see where the pink stops and the orange begins. Finer varieties have been described as having a primary color of pink with strong orange secondary colors, resembling Hawaiian sunset or raw salmon. Dick Hughe’s describes the color as “A marriage between ruby & yellow sapphire”

In general the term Padparadscha is rather a descriptive term or trade name rather than a strictly defined variety.Leading labs in the marketplace can''t agree.

Tone & Crystal: A prospective gem might display a light-medium tone with excellent transparency or clarity. Richard Wise described the tonal range from 30-65 %. Wise also comments moving above the 65% tone the gem might be to robust to qualify as a true padparadscha. Less than 30% leaves the renders the gems tone to pale to be as attractive. A prospective buyer should look for an eye clean specimen with good clarity because of the lighter pastel shades and blending of colors the gem exhibits. Darker gems such as ruby & fine blue sapphires would mask some of the readily eye visible inclusions which would be seen a lighter shaded gem.

Hughes outlines ovals and cushions are common and rounds are seen with a slight premium being paid. Cutting often displays an overly deep pavilion, but many of the native stones in general I believe display this phenomenon. Hughes also outlines stones above 2 carats being rare with prices ranging from a couple thousand - tens of thousands of dollars per carat.

Other Notes: Richard Orbach:
TIER 1) TRADITIONAL COLLECTABLE NATURAL PADPARADSCHA (STRICTEST) An unheated Sri Lankan Sapphire which exhibits a color combination of pink and orange in any proportion as long as both colors are obvious and blend together. This would include the whole gamut of tones from pale apricot to deep Hawaiian sunset. The primary color could be either pink or orange but the secondary color must be clearly apparent. Too much brown would disqualify the gem from this category altogether.

TIER 2) COLLECTABLE NATURAL PADPARADSCHA (STRICT) Any unheated Sapphire regardless of country of origin that exhibits the color combination as stated above. I have seen many superb Madagascan, Vietnamese and African gems that hold their own next to Sri Lankan gems. I consider these gems to be valuable treasures unto themselves as long as they are a) beautiful and b) without enhancement.

TIER 3) PADPARADSCHA (INCLUSIVE) This category would include any sapphire that exhibits the color combination above including any country of origin. This category covers heat-treated gems but not those gems whose treatments are beryllium or diffusion based.

Robert Genis notes:In our opinion, the Umba Valley, Tanzania gems and the new Madagascar material do not have the same attractive color in the classic sense. Some unscrupulous dealers have been selling African fancy sapphires as padparadscha. However, these stones have too much orange-brown to be properly labeled "pads". Sri Lankan padparadscha sapphires sell at a premium, nearing the price of a Kashmir sapphire. An unheated gem padparadscha will range between $4000-$10,000 per carat. Large gems can exceed these prices.

The Pad you posted looks a little pale to me, but if your not worried about rich color and want to save some money a lighter toned gem should help your pocket book.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 12/12/2005 9:35:47 PM
Author: supercheesewiz

Mr Arnstein told me it's an ideal (perfectly) cut, but i'm not really sure what that means...

To me, that would mean no window, little if any darkness (reflector facets that look darn seen up close - also called extinction), reasonable symmetry face up and finish and good size for the weight and price. From those pictures, all of those are in place - as much as pictures can tell, and that is always only one shot at the 3D reality

'ColorGemstoneNut' ! Wow! Don't tell me you have a neat report like that about each and every gem

Thanks.

I would add a note to the report: getting the 'pad' word on a lab report may be a bit dicey so some stones never get submitted and some with obviously attractive color do pass by a lab and return 'pinkish orange' or something. Along time where the line is drawn between pad and non-pad mixtures of orange and pink kept changing. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the last such change went against the deeper colored non SriLankan stones - so that every deeper pad got hit, while overly light ones went up in favor. And this is rather sad...

If having the respective name on a lab's paper is not important (i.e. this stone has to satisfy you and look a warm shade of pink to everyone), there may be some beauties around that never got to be called Pad by a lab. I am not sure what the name calling policy of The Natural Sapphire Company is, but it seems that they prefer to call non-certified sapphires with other names than 'pad'. Where non-certified, means without a lab report regardless of the existence of a certificate issued by the seller.

My 2c.


The certification and 'fashions' of calling 'pad' various things have been discussed here earlier. You may want to run a search on the forum for older threads if not done already.


Best of luck

 

[valeria101]

I wouldn''t have hoped to find an example online off the bat, but it happened. Here it is:

 

[valeria101]

Perhaps the message of all this might be that only a gem lab can call a Pad a Pad, and it is wiser never to resubmit for grading, because they might change their mind!

Or, even better, decide not to care and look up a pleasant color and good price (that you have already).


When I first learned to like these stones, that deeper color would have been higher on my list than very light ones too...

The sapphire you picked up does not have a lab report and the price does not seem to contain any huge markup because of the particular pad pedigree. I only mentioned these as a follow up to 'ColorGemstoneNu'ts' synopsis. I am no expert either - so if any of this is a concern to you, asking the seller of their position on the issue may help. Perhaps you will not have the owner over the phone, but their certification policy should be as strict and informed as any - as much as I can tell. I would definitely not say the same about every shop...

Some stones of their inventory are quite a puzzle ('peach', 'pinkish-orange', 'orange-pink', 'reddish orange' like the note on the revised lab report, and the like).

For example: U63, U88, U420, U486, U398

 

[supercheesewiz]

Wow, thanks for the fantastic information. Label me impressed. I think when all is said and done, I am trying to get the right stone for me (i.e. my significant other) at a fair price, rather than getting a "pad" stone. I guess that's really the tricky part of determining the value of an unique sapphire. What do you guys think, does 2200 sound right? Again, thanks for all the great information, you guys are the best.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 12/13/2005 9:05:34 AM
Author: supercheesewiz

What do you guys think, does 2200 sound right?

Why not, unless there is something else (less expensive, or just different for the money) that you would like... For a pastel sapphire this size, you should have some choice for the money. The stone is obviously beautiful though and fancy sapphires are hard to compare objectively for me because allot seems to be a matter of personal taste and choice about them.

For example, all those lined up in the last picture I posted here cost less (some are smaller, but comparable). But even to me the one you picked is at least a bit more attractive because of the nice cut. I would have preffered less light color if anything, but this is not mine to choose.

 

[PrecisionGem]

From the pictures of the stone in question, I would say the pavailon facets are cut too shallow, and the stone will have a window. I could be wrong, but it sure looks too shallow in the bottom view. You will find that most native cut sapphires are poorly cut. THe photos just above here show many lopsided poorly cut stones. It''s a real shame that these stones are native cut, they could be real gems if correctly cut.

 

[valeria101]

Second that about cut!

There are lots of fine cut sapphires on that site, but not many in the pad department for some reason. And the couple of exceptions are either large or heated.

Quite a bit ago 'Art Nouveau' posted about and than bought a wonderful pad. It looked like anything but what it was in pictures and I was so skeptical about it because of those pictures in the beginning and ended up having to apologize when more & better information about the true color came up. This should have taught me a lesson, but it is hard...

Also, I wanted to mention this because the pictures the sellers has of your sapphire are not the greatest. They may hide a window like Gene Flanigan mentions or not, and may also show less color than the description ('intense') implies.

I should have looked at other shops and did... but found nothing in the price and size range to mention.

For fun... how about these?

 

[widget]

Hi, Cheesewiz!

Do you specifically want a Padparadscha? If so, I agree with Ana.. a pad is only a pad when some major gem lab has described it as such..

Regarding the stone you''re considering: no one''s mentioned this, but it looks way too violet to me to be a pad...especially when compared to the array of other ones in Ana''s last post...it does look pretty and sparkly, though!

If you just want a pretty, light colored stone and it doesn''t have to be a padparadscha, it seems to me you''d have a wider range of choices, and perhaps save some money, too..

JMO
widget

 

[supercheesewiz]

I have noticed and wondered about the differing quality of the gem cuts on the site. For what it is worth, i emailed Michael Arnstein and he quoted this about this particular gem:

"This Padparadscha sapphire is a very unique color, actually I went through our inventory and didn''t see anything with this color tone, for sure it is one of a kind in any size. The clarity is excellent, absolutely no inclusions visable, the cutting is ideal, no dead area''s, it''s all 100% light return. The color is very much as it looks online, a touch of pink, violet, orange and rose. There is a lot going on in this piece. - ... it is perfectly cut for sure, no window or zoning effect anywhere."

Looking trough the other discussions, it seems that this website is held in relatively decent regard... Ohwell.

Anyway, perhaps I should reframe the question. I have 3-6 k dollars to spend on a gem to put in an engagement ring that I will design. My GF has indicated that she wants something "special + unique" which she has "graciously" allowed me to interperate. I do like the deep blue and unique lighter saphires, but being new to this, it''s a little hard to judge. Again, thanks for the great input.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 12/13/2005 2:41:10 PM
Author: supercheesewiz

My GF has indicated that she wants something ''special + unique'' which she has ''graciously'' allowed me to interperate.

Chances are ''Pad'' would have been the first thought for me too - these sapphires are just a very special choice almost by definition, as far as I understand. And classic enough to be non-controversial.

Speaking of reputable websites, you might want to add Pala and Richard Wise''s online shop (link) to the list. Both comes with their own authoritative pages about pad sapphires and others. There''s allot more out there, of course. These come up by reflex.

Also, I hadn''t seen that this matches the budget too. It is one of the ''poster kids'' in ColorGemstoneNut''s post above. There is more where this one comes from too.

 

[sylvesterii]

Now THIS is what I call a pad...
rwwise

 

[elmo]

I think your 1.78 is a neat looking stone in the photo. Arnstein seems very willing to send things for preview - why don''t you have it and one or two others sent to look at, maybe a blue too if that''s an option? Or for something completely different use blue accent stones with a pad or vice versa?

 

[MINE!!]

Date: 12/13/2005 6:51:05 PM
Author: sylvesterii
Now THIS is what I call a pad...
rwwise

NNNIIIICCCCEEEE COLOR!!