Yaw Angst

[Rhino]

Greetings Sir John,

I appreciate you wanting to continue further discussion here but as strm points out there are more imperative matters on hand and you and your colleagues have been in our prayers here at GOG. Some on the forum feel we''re beating a dead horse in this thread and by no means am I looking to bore any of the readers.

At your discretion we can continue here or if you like perhaps Leonid can place this in "Guerilla Gemology" as this stuff if flying way over the heads of most readers I think. Even our dear friend belle, whom I consider a quick study and DiamCalc user has lost interest as well.

John, recent events are causing me to take a step back for a short while to finish some tasks both personally and professionally that I need to address, so I do not want you to interpret my silence in the wrong way. Some of my best discussions are with you and I just wanted to give you a heads up. If you like you can call me on the phone anytime and we can talk if there is anything you want to discuss.

Warmest regards,
Jonathan

PS: Please send my regards to the rest of the crew there too.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 9/23/2005 9:54:43 AM
Author: strmrdr

John,

You have more important things to worry about but I wanted to post this while I was thinking about it.
Can you please post the hearts image for the twisted crown virtual diamond.

Hi Strm.

Here are the images. Original on the left, crown adjusted on the right.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 9/23/2005 9:54:43 AM
Author: strmrdr

By Brian''s definition is it yaw if its the crown and not the pavilian thats shifted?

Yaw can take place on any facet. I spoke to Brian earlier and he asked me to remind everyone that yaw is not azimuth shift, it’s a resultant effect OF azimuth shift - depending on which way the facet was polished. It can be slight or it can be pronounced. The question of defining it becomes determining slope angle for several different parts of the facet.

In the vast picture it may be of small significance, but I think there is agreement that it exists - and may not be measured in every circumstance. Pursuit of knowledge is the aim. For a long time in science we thought protons, neutrons and electrons were the smallest building blocks of matter, but then we discovered the quark. If we hadn’t kept digging and analyzing it would never have been uncovered.

This phenomenon exists and it’s worth study, whether for craftsmanship or performance enrichment. Personally, I think that some incidents of yaw have the potential to make more visible difference than Ex versus VG meet point symmetry - and that is graded. Even if the potential for performance influence is very limited it is still part of the craftsmanship of a diamond. We are putting it forward so it may be defined and understood

Strm, you’re familiar with the premise of Marty’s studies relating to precise optical symmetry and dispersion aren’t you? Do you think this could be pertinent?

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 9/23/2005 3:00:13 PM
Author: Rhino

At your discretion we can continue here or if you like perhaps Leonid can place this in 'Guerilla Gemology' as this stuff if flying way over the heads of most readers I think. Even our dear friend belle, whom I consider a quick study and DiamCalc user has lost interest as well.

Rhino? Is that you? Calling for retreat because it’s ‘over the heads’ of some people? (isn’t that like Mister Wizard locking the class out of the lab?) How many hands do you think it will take for us to count the different ray tracing, optic, angular spectral, 'head shadow' (old school) dialogues that have happened here. I’m gonna let this pass for now, but you have me worried that you're running a fever.

Date: 9/23/2005 3:00:13 PM
Author: Rhino

I appreciate you wanting to continue further discussion here but as strm points out there are more imperative matters on hand and you and your colleagues have been in our prayers here at GOG. Some on the forum feel we're beating a dead horse in this thread and by no means am I looking to bore any of the readers.

Dr. Dolittle says the poor horse collapsed from confusion: Lashed from the buggy of pavilion emphasis, kicked with spurs of slope measurement and spooked by impossible crown assessment, the poor thing ran pell-mell through a tangle of posts and brambles and fell into the abyss of apathy. Maybe Dr. Gavin's graphics will exorcise the crown demons, and could defibrillate our little pony. But he has a weak heart and could be spooked by a further barrage of crowny images

So, this is important: Seeing Brian’s demo on the last page, and his coffee quiz from the prior thread Rhino, would you agree that trying to analyze pavilion construction through the crown without an accompanying scan is futile?

Anyone besides Rhino have thoughts? Did we really lose Belle? Unfortunate if she slipped away.

If the thread could sustain focused conversation on definition and measurement we could make strides… But as I encouraged on the last page, straying into performance assessment or looking through the crown only brings that horse down right now.

Date: 9/23/2005 3:00:13 PM
Author: Rhino

John, recent events are causing me to take a step back for a short while to finish some tasks both personally and professionally that I need to address, so I do not want you to interpret my silence in the wrong way. Some of my best discussions are with you and I just wanted to give you a heads up. If you like you can call me on the phone anytime and we can talk if there is anything you want to discuss.

Warmest regards,
Jonathan

PS: Please send my regards to the rest of the crew there too.

Rhino, thanks for the thoughts and the kind words. Ditto on the sentiments – you have my digits too. Taking care of real life is always of prime importance. If you have things you must attend to, please do! No worries. If the thread gets deep-sixed we can always bumpity.

 

[Rhino]

LOL... I''m bad.

Thinking about this discussion again... and not reading everything after I was last here was on the mind... hence the hasty last response.

Date: 9/21/2005 4:51:34 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
It is nothing special Rhino - you are looking into the stone thru the table and you are seeing light that has come from the red reflector (if it is IS or ASET) - 59%.
The paler spike has a bit less than 50% light return.

It is just an interaction between lower girdle facets and crown main''s that cause the spike.

Do I need to add to the DiamCalc tutorial how to do this?

For me... yes.

Actually if you just sent it to me in email that would be ok too. I''m slightly behind in emails with you as lately I have to work with clients first. We''ll catch up in our emails though and I am interested in seeing what causes that spike through the trace in DC.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 9/24/2005 1:38:40 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Yaw can take place on any facet. I spoke to Brian earlier and he asked me to remind everyone that yaw is not azimuth shift, it’s a resultant effect OF azimuth shift - depending on which way the facet was polished. It can be slight or it can be pronounced. The question of defining it becomes determining slope angle for several different parts of the facet.

John I have asked this same question of Brian many times. Firstly at Vegas, and on this and other threads.
Are Yawed facets flat? Every time the answer has been "yes, they are flat."

But I keep getting mixed stories - and here it is again.
If a facet is flat then you can measure its azimuth and slope at any place and it will always be the same.

I do not think this tiny issue is very important anyway when we have issues like GIA''s Facetware and AGS grading giving wildly different predicted grades - this will lead to consumer and retailer confusion and collateral damage.
As someone else said in another thread - we have spent (maybe even wasted) years of anal study on rounds. Maaybe it is time to move on and be the "saviours" of some other cuts, or even work on new ones?

 

[Rhino]

Date: 9/24/2005 2:53:04 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 9/24/2005 1:38:40 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Yaw can take place on any facet. I spoke to Brian earlier and he asked me to remind everyone that yaw is not azimuth shift, it’s a resultant effect OF azimuth shift - depending on which way the facet was polished. It can be slight or it can be pronounced. The question of defining it becomes determining slope angle for several different parts of the facet.

John I have asked this same question of Brian many times. Firstly at Vegas, and on this and other threads.
Are Yawed facets flat? Every time the answer has been ''yes, they are flat.''

But I keep getting mixed stories - and here it is again.
If a facet is flat then you can measure its azimuth and slope at any place and it will always be the same.

I do not think this tiny issue is very important anyway when we have issues like GIA''s Facetware and AGS grading giving wildly different predicted grades - this will lead to consumer and retailer confusion and collateral damage.
As someone else said in another thread - we have spent (maybe even wasted) years of anal study on rounds. Maaybe it is time to move on and be the ''saviours'' of some other cuts, or even work on new ones?

3:40 am here ... constructed a response but I dare not post it now. Must sleep on it. Garry ... all i can say to this is AMEN. I am glad I''m not alone in fully grasping their perspective as well as many other peers who have been reading this thread. That is why I said the thing about beating a dead horse. I have talked with Paul about this in email slightly more and he told me I probably haven''t see a yawed diamond in years. Actually I can let you know how I can tell come to think of it ... Garry can you turn Bruces'' yawed example face up through the LightScope view? Bring the lower halves to around 77-80% approx. (to reflect more commonly cut stones) I would like to see if I am familiar with the phenomena and I''ll give my honest answer. I''m at my home computer and do not have DiamCalc on this.

Peace out,

 

[beryl]

Quote of Garry:
. "If a facet is flat then you can measure its azimuth and slope at any place and it will always be the same."

EXACTLY !

. I have stopped trying to explain this to Brian; he does not see the significance of the term ''slope''. He notes that a twisted facet has a different angle along one edge than the other, but this is not ''slope''. There is a different angle for any line on the surface of a flat facet, but only one ''slope'' for the facet. Paul indicated this with his bicycle example.
. The problem, as usual, is one of semantics. I have used the term ''slope'' for many years for that one specific angle, measured perpendicular to the trace (intersection of facet at girdle line), so it does not get confused with all the other angles in a faceted gem and light-ray studies. Along with ''azimuth'', it corresponds to ''elevation'' in gun-aiming.
. And now, back to sleep.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/24/2005 1:36:43 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 9/23/2005 9:54:43 AM

Author: strmrdr


John,


You have more important things to worry about but I wanted to post this while I was thinking about it.

Can you please post the hearts image for the twisted crown virtual diamond.

Hi Strm.

Here are the images. Original on the left, crown adjusted on the right.

Thanks,
Its interesting I expected a bigger deformation of the hearts.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 9/24/2005 7:05:31 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 9/24/2005 1:36:43 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 9/23/2005 9:54:43 AM

Author: strmrdr


John,


You have more important things to worry about but I wanted to post this while I was thinking about it.

Can you please post the hearts image for the twisted crown virtual diamond.

Hi Strm.

Here are the images. Original on the left, crown adjusted on the right.

Thanks,
Its interesting I expected a bigger deformation of the hearts.

Strm in a teacup?
ROFL

Rhino, Bruce, sleep, just sleep

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 9/24/2005 7:25:14 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 9/24/2005 7:05:31 AM

Author: strmrdr


Thanks,

Its interesting I expected a bigger deformation of the hearts.

Strm in a teacup?

ROFL

Rhino, Bruce, sleep, just sleep

huh?

 

[belle]

strm in a teacup?
perhaps, but look at the group gathered here for the discussion!

i for one, am glad this discussion is public. i am learning much from the views put forward here. i''ll admit, the whole concept of yaw, slope, and azimuth shift are proving a challenge for my brain, but the one thing that is clear for me is...
you can''t judge the effects of pavilion facet construction through the crown. i think that point was proved well in brian''s presentation in the minor facet thread.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 9/24/2005 11:40:39 AM
Author: belle
strm in a teacup?
perhaps, but look at the group gathered here for the discussion!

i for one, am glad this discussion is public. i am learning much from the views put forward here. i''ll admit, the whole concept of yaw, slope, and azimuth shift are proving a challenge for my brain, but the one thing that is clear for me is...
you can''t judge the effects of pavilion facet construction through the crown. i think that point was proved well in brian''s presentation in the minor facet thread.

Maybe that is true with analyzing the pavilion using reflectance equipment, but take a look at the image 6 images from the B Scope.

While you can''t definitively measure facet yaw, the B Scope gets that image in the crown up position and when the light is diffused it certainly display some relatively useful graphic of how well the pavilion structure is.

Sorry I can''t contribute more info about the results with the desktop ASET, as mine hasn''t arrived yet, but it will be here around the beginning of next month. AGS is awaiting delivery of the new units they have. I was told they did make some minor changes in it, so hopefully it will be here soon.

Rockdoc

 

[beryl]

Date: 9/24/2005 7:25:14 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Strm in a teacup?
ROFL

Rhino, Bruce, sleep, just sleep

Garry: When were you appointed moderator of this forum?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 9/24/2005 4:43:10 PM
Author: beryl

Garry: When were you appointed moderator of this forum?

I am well known for my moderation Bruce

Moderation in wine consumption and gently disagreeing etc

 

[Rhino]

Date: 9/24/2005 1:49:31 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 9/23/2005 3:00:13 PM
Author: Rhino

At your discretion we can continue here or if you like perhaps Leonid can place this in ''Guerilla Gemology'' as this stuff if flying way over the heads of most readers I think. Even our dear friend belle, whom I consider a quick study and DiamCalc user has lost interest as well.

Rhino? Is that you? Calling for retreat because it’s ‘over the heads’ of some people? (isn’t that like Mister Wizard locking the class out of the lab?) How many hands do you think it will take for us to count the different ray tracing, optic, angular spectral, ''head shadow'' (old school) dialogues that have happened here. I’m gonna let this pass for now, but you have me worried that you''re running a fever.

Not retreating friend and please do not worry. Reflecting on this I realize that my perspective is not being perceived by you or Brian and perhaps others but I am cool with that bro. I have tried to express where I am coming from a few times but I see that my lack of communication skills has come through again.

Dr. Dolittle says the poor horse collapsed from confusion: Lashed from the buggy of pavilion emphasis, kicked with spurs of slope measurement and spooked by impossible crown assessment, the poor thing ran pell-mell through a tangle of posts and brambles and fell into the abyss of apathy. Maybe Dr. Gavin''s graphics will exorcise the crown demons, and could defibrillate our little pony. But he has a weak heart and could be spooked by a further barrage of crowny images

So, this is important: Seeing Brian’s demo on the last page, and his coffee quiz from the prior thread Rhino, would you agree that trying to analyze pavilion construction through the crown without an accompanying scan is futile?

LMAO little pony!!! You are too funny man. Confused? I''ve never been more clear headed in my entire life on the issues I am studying. As I have said repeated times John, there are certain assessments through the crown I can positively identify and correllate to numerical data in what some would consider pretty great detail. I choose not to discuss these matters now as I feel this thread has grown to a point where I would like to agree to disagree John.

If this makes you guys happy, then yes ... Dr. Gavin''s graphics need to excercize the crown demons within me, I am a scared little pony with a weak heart and I greatly fear Brian posting a barage of crowny images to confuse me.

I will say this one last time and then I am done my friend. I have come so far in my studies of what I would consider "the optical signature". My only limitations to correllating numerical data with the face up signature has been the measuring devices I have employed or have had access to to this point. Helium has unlocked whole new sets of data for me to correllate to this signature and I have successfully identified many new features I was formerly unable to.

This is all I am going to speak on this subject for now even if you like because this will all be presented in an upcoming article which will be the culmination of my research on this for the past 5 years till this point in time and even daily am I making new discoveries and correllations. A chapter in this article which will specifically address the issues that were brought up amongst these threads will be under one entitled "Translating the Optical Signature". If I attempted to explain it now, in this thread it would require reading everything I had written in my article to this point and I am not ready to publish any of this data until I have completed it and am ready to publish it after certain peer review.

Let me end this now by saying thank you Brian and John for all you have shared. You have opened up your perspectives to me and though tough to grasp I feel I have the fundamentals of it. Bruce, I can only imagine the amount of times you hit your head saying ... "He still doesn''t get it!!!"

I am glad that I have met you as a result of these threads. Paul... you rock as always.

RockDoc, Mike Cowing, and any other of my peers if you have specific questions for me please drop me an email with any questions you have and I''ll do my best to answer.

Rhino, thanks for the thoughts and the kind words. Ditto on the sentiments – you have my digits too. Taking care of real life is always of prime importance. If you have things you must attend to, please do! No worries. If the thread gets deep-sixed we can always bumpity.

Next time we meet bro, the brews are on me.

Warm regards,

 

[belle]

Date: 9/24/2005 11:58:34 AM
Author: RockDoc

Date: 9/24/2005 11:40:39 AM
Author: belle
strm in a teacup?
perhaps, but look at the group gathered here for the discussion!

i for one, am glad this discussion is public. i am learning much from the views put forward here. i''ll admit, the whole concept of yaw, slope, and azimuth shift are proving a challenge for my brain, but the one thing that is clear for me is...
you can''t judge the effects of pavilion facet construction through the crown. i think that point was proved well in brian''s presentation in the minor facet thread.

Maybe that is true with analyzing the pavilion using reflectance equipment, but take a look at the image 6 images from the B Scope.

While you can''t definitively measure facet yaw, the B Scope gets that image in the crown up position and when the light is diffused it certainly display some relatively useful graphic of how well the pavilion structure is.

Sorry I can''t contribute more info about the results with the desktop ASET, as mine hasn''t arrived yet, but it will be here around the beginning of next month. AGS is awaiting delivery of the new units they have. I was told they did make some minor changes in it, so hopefully it will be here soon.

Rockdoc

are you trying to light my (distorted) bscope fire rockdoc?

 

[RockDoc]

From Belle to Rockdoc

are you trying to light my (distorted) bscope fire rockdoc?

________________________________________________


Belle ....

"Distorted B Scope Fire"? Now what could that be.....???

Are you flirting with my B Scope?

Rockdoc

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Roc Belle may be flirting also, but she is referring to this thread.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/distroted-fire-result-in-brilliancescope.32784/