Would love your opinion with the following GIA certificate

[lovedogs]

Hi Katya - apparently ALL stones are eye clean? But will arrive next week for me to inspect if I do go ahead with it ...

All the ones he's showing you are eye clean? Not all SI1s are eye-clean, and even if they are, some can have clouds or other issues. But certainly worth checking it out in person!

 

[Katya DXB]

Looks like I found your candidate here:
https://www.pricescope.com/diamonds/round/1_01-carat-e-color-si1-clarity-6586157

I cannot judge by this photo whether this diamond is likely to be eye clean, but perhaps there are other who can?

 

[np0001]

You lot are like FBI agents ... geez!

 

[Katya DXB]

You lot are like FBI agents ... geez!

 

[np0001]

I was also presented with the following and only $200aud cheaper than the above E

 

[Dancing Fire]

I was also presented with the following and only $200aud cheaper than the above E

Flat top + big table + deep bottom half =

 

[LBeezy34]

Hi - thank you for your prompt reply. My budget is $9,000-$9,500 AUD for the diamond.

Preferred specs are D VS2, with fluorescence none - faint, but would settle with medium.

Thx,
Nick

Hi if you're in Melbourne you should visit Aaron from Diamond Specialists. Tell him your specs and proportions and he'll look after you.

 

[sledge]

I was also presented with the following and only $200aud cheaper than the above E

Barf.

As noted by @Dancing Fire, the table is way too big. Technically it's possible to hit an ideal area with a 62 table, but damn near impossible.

Here is where this stone falls out on the AGS proportions chart.



Here is the ENTIRE chart for stones with a 62 table. Literally 7 options for ideal cut. Since you apparently want a 60/60 stone, please eliminate 62 tables from your search criteria.




Food for thought. If you were to get a 60/60 stone with true 60 table (as opposed to 62 like you presented), look at how the crown/pavilion angle would work entirely different.

 

[sledge]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, did I miss the post where you clarified you WANTED a 60/60 stone? Have you seen a well cut 60/60 stone in comparison to a traditional ideal cut (TIC) stone?

Examples:

• 60/60 stone = 60% depth, 60% table, 33 crown, 41 pavilion
• TIC stone = 54-57% table, <62.4% depth, 34.5 crown, 40.7-40.8 pavilion

If your local dealer has a stone with those proportions in-stock, please look at both. Even if they aren't in your preferred color range (D/E). Just make sure they are within 1-2 color grades of another.

The point isn't to prove color, but rather to determine what cut style you like and prefer. The stones will behave very differently. If you prefer one or the other, it is senseless to keep pulling and reviewing stones of the opposite caliber.

 

[lovedogs]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, did I miss the post where you clarified you WANTED a 60/60 stone? Have you seen a well cut 60/60 stone in comparison to a traditional ideal cut (TIC) stone?

Examples:

• 60/60 stone = 60% depth, 60% table, 33 crown, 41 pavilion
• TIC stone = 54-57% table, <62.4% depth, 34.5 crown, 40.7-40.8 pavilion

If your local dealer has a stone with those proportions in-stock, please look at both. Even if they aren't in your preferred color range (D/E). Just make sure they are within 1-2 color grades of another.

The point isn't to prove color, but rather to determine what cut style you like and prefer. The stones will behave very differently. If you prefer one or the other, it is senseless to keep pulling and reviewing stones of the opposite caliber.

Agreed, that's what I was recommending to OP earlier.

 

[Katya DXB]

If I were to take a guess, it would be that OP is not necessarily set on a particular make (TIC or 60/60) but is rather looking for a balanced diamond with great visual performance that falls within certain budget and meets his color, carat and clarity preferences. Whatever certificate he is shown by the dealer, he posts here as it was suggested. It also doesn't sound like the dealer has a lot of stones in store that can be used for comparison purposes. (Sorry Nick for referring to you in third person).

What I also think is that in a situation where one faces certain limitations it is important to keep an open mind and allow a certain degree of flexibility, to avoid disappointment and try to keep this important journey as pleasant as possible. And if one needs to widen the parameters and go beyond PS-ers' preferred proportions range, it does not necessarily mean one won't be able to find a beautiful diamond that his fiancee will absolutely love, even if that diamond is not an AGS Ideal.

As I assume you are not able to compare a 60/60 and a TIC diamond side by side, you may want to look at this article:

https://www.pricescope.com/journal/laboratory_cut_grades_what_report_doesn’t_show

If you go to section C, there will be images of nine different 'makes'. The E/SI1 looks close to number 4. A TIC would look like 2, 6 or 8. By comparison, number 4 lacks in fire but still has a great light return (IS/ASET images) and is very bright.

I hope it helps.
Best,
Katya

 

[sledge]

If I were to take a guess, it would be that OP is not necessarily set on a particular make (TIC or 60/60) but is rather looking for a balanced diamond with great visual performance that falls within certain budget and meets his color, carat and clarity preferences. Whatever certificate he is shown by the dealer, he posts here as it was suggested. It also doesn't sound like the dealer has a lot of stones in store that can be used for comparison purposes. (Sorry Nick for referring to you in third person).

What I also think is that in a situation where one faces certain limitations it is important to keep an open mind and allow a certain degree of flexibility, to avoid disappointment and try to keep this important journey as pleasant as possible. And if one needs to widen the parameters and go beyond PS-ers' preferred proportions range, it does not necessarily mean one won't be able to find a beautiful diamond that his fiancee will absolutely love, even if that diamond is not an AGS Ideal.

As I assume you are not able to compare a 60/60 and a TIC diamond side by side, you may want to look at this article:

https://www.pricescope.com/journal/laboratory_cut_grades_what_report_doesn’t_show

If you go to section C, there will be images of nine different 'makes'. The E/SI1 looks close to number 4. A TIC would look like 2, 6 or 8. By comparison, number 4 lacks in fire but still has a great light return (IS/ASET images) and is very bright.

I hope it helps.
Best,
Katya

I agree with the bigger point that a stone doesn't have to be AGS Ideal to be pleasing. However, the stones presented thus far are quite far from that range IMO.

I disagree with your assessment about the E/SI1 looking like #4 on the link you provided. Here are the specs on all those stones referenced in the article. The table, depth and crown are all varying factors that will make a difference.

Hey @np0001, since your local jeweler deals in virtual inventory see if the can pull the following stones for you to review. Maybe it's possible for you to have an ideal cut stone after all.

1.01ct F SI1, 57 table, 61.9 depth, 34.5/40.8 angles & 75 LGF, $6,380 USD
https://taylorandhart.com/us/diamond-search/RN-96628226-GIA-1303274712

This should be a drop dead killer stone, assuming it is eye clean. Awesome angles and fat arrows w/ those 75 LGF's. This is stone I'd personally be interested in buying myself if I were in the market.



1.04ct E SI1, 55 table, 61.9 depth, 34/40.8 angles & 80 LGF, $6,058 USD
https://www.fourmine.com/shop/diamond/1485495

This should also be another gorgeous stone within ideal parameters. The 80 LGF means this will have slightly more skinny arrows, but it will still be awesome. Love the small table too!



1.03ct D SI1, 57 table, 61.2 depth, 34/40.6 angles & 80 LGF, $6,450 USD
https://taylorandhart.com/us/diamond-search/SR-BNI-233394-GIA-1289785733

This is kind of my gamble. It's on the fringe to be honest. With a 34 crown we typically like to see a little higher pavilion angle. It's worth a look though, and an ASET may confirm it hits ideal. Biggest reason I included is it hits your preferred D color.

 

[Katya DXB]

@sledge I am aware that numbers are different - as I said they look close to one another and to my eyes definitely close enough to get an idea of different looks of different makes.

Great finds, by the way.

 

[sledge]

@sledge I am aware that numbers are different - as I said they look close to one another and to my eyes definitely close enough to get an idea of different looks of different makes.

Great finds, by the way.

Thank you. That first one is nearly picture perfect. Hoping he is able to grab it.

About the other deal, I saw you said close. I just felt there was enough variance that I didn't consider them as close as you did. With the data being reported in the article, #4 is really a pretty ideal cut 60/60 stone.

IMO, the options being presented to Nick isn't really in the same caliber. But maybe I'm being too critical and expecting others to see things at a higher level of detail than the average bear normally sees. Just because I would notice doesn't mean I am the majority.

For comparison, and fun, here is the estimated cut for #4 using AGS proportions chart:



Here is the one I posted earlier for the E/VS1:

 

[Katya DXB]

@sledge I’m referring to E/SI1 where the ca was 33.5

 

[sledge]

@sledge I’m referring to E/SI1 where the ca was 33.5

Ahhh, crap. I missed that one. Going back over the threads, I see where he posted in PDF format in post #25, but I was on my phone and didn't have time to convert to an image and post. The E/SI1 I was referring to was highlighted back in posts #16 & 17.

I agree this particular stone is more in line with #4 above. It has pretty good proportions actually for a 60/60 style.

Sorry for the mix up. I appreciate you clarifying.

 

[np0001]

Thank you to all who have responded to this thread. I honestly cannot be more thankful for the overwhelming amount of support you have all given and the wealth of knowledge you have brought to the table. I have learned so much over the course of these 3 days on these forums, which has now put me in a position to even challenge the sales rep .

There is so much activity on this thread that at most times (95%), I don't even know how to respond to your questions because, well, I'm just nowhere near that level you're all at. You guys talk about angles, etc. - man, I'm stoked that I finished high school and didn't have to look at trigonometry again!! And here you all are explaining tables, angles, depth, etc. and I'm over here like Homer Simpson trying to decipher codes from the Zodiac!

I will be perfectly honest with you all - I didn't even realise that I was handed a fake diamond when first looking at and inspecting the setting at the diamond dealer ... that's how much of a noob I am!

One thing I do know is if I am dropping this sum of money, I want to buy a stone that is at least half decent and a stone that you all can go on and say "you know what OP, that'll do just fine. You've done enough research to understand and buy this stone."

I've noticed that on a few occasions you have asked if I am comfortable with a 60/60 stone? I have highlighted the above text to re-iterate to you all that I surely am LOL.

I have also advised the diamond dealer that I would like to inspect the E/SI1, which @sledge and @Katya DXB have advised that for a 60/60 stone (again, not sure it is a 60/60 exactly by definition) has pretty good proportions.

My only concern - and @Katya DXB you haven't been able to see based on the photo - is if this stone is "eye clean"? In situations like this, I wish that I could put one of you in my back pocket to help inspect for me LOL.

The diamond dealer has advised that they only "source eye clean stones" - but let's be serious, this needs a thorough examination by the naked eye.

Do any of you have any suggestions/recommendations on how I can best prepare myself to inspect this stone and determine if it is "eye clean"?

Aside from this, would welcome any criticism, thoughts, etc. you all have .

Thank you so much again and look forward to hearing from you all.

Regards,
Nick

 

[LBeezy34]

Thank you to all who have responded to this thread. I honestly cannot be more thankful for the overwhelming amount of support you have all given and the wealth of knowledge you have brought to the table. I have learned so much over the course of these 3 days on these forums, which has now put me in a position to even challenge the sales rep .

There is so much activity on this thread that at most times (95%), I don't even know how to respond to your questions because, well, I'm just nowhere near that level you're all at. You guys talk about angles, etc. - man, I'm stoked that I finished high school and didn't have to look at trigonometry again!! And here you all are explaining tables, angles, depth, etc. and I'm over here like Homer Simpson trying to decipher codes from the Zodiac!

I will be perfectly honest with you all - I didn't even realise that I was handed a fake diamond when first looking at and inspecting the setting at the diamond dealer ... that's how much of a noob I am!

One thing I do know is if I am dropping this sum of money, I want to buy a stone that is at least half decent and a stone that you all can go on and say "you know what OP, that'll do just fine. You've done enough research to understand and buy this stone."

I've noticed that on a few occasions you have asked if I am comfortable with a 60/60 stone? I have highlighted the above text to re-iterate to you all that I surely am LOL.

I have also advised the diamond dealer that I would like to inspect the E/SI1, which @sledge and @Katya DXB have advised that for a 60/60 stone (again, not sure it is a 60/60 exactly by definition) has pretty good proportions.

My only concern - and @Katya DXB you haven't been able to see based on the photo - is if this stone is "eye clean"? In situations like this, I wish that I could put one of you in my back pocket to help inspect for me LOL.

The diamond dealer has advised that they only "source eye clean stones" - but let's be serious, this needs a thorough examination by the naked eye.

Do any of you have any suggestions/recommendations on how I can best prepare myself to inspect this stone and determine if it is "eye clean"?

Aside from this, would welcome any criticism, thoughts, etc. you all have .

Thank you so much again and look forward to hearing from you all.

Regards,
Nick

Ask the jeweller to allow you to look at it yourself with their loupe. Simples!

 

[sledge]

Well @np0001, if I was Australia based, I would be happy to meet up with you and go to your dealer. Afterwards we could grab a beer or ten. Unfortunately I'm in the USA so that's a little tough.

Hopefully I can provide some additional information to make your life easier. First, please don't be intimidated by the information being tossed around here. Instead, slow us down and ask questions so we can better explain what we are talking about.

That said, let's address 60/60 diamonds. This simply means the depth is equal to 60%, and the table is equal to 60%. You can see see this by looking at the values on the diamond certificates. The last E/SI1 stone you presented technically was not a 60/60 stone as the table was only 58% and actual depth was 60.7%. However, it is close enough that it will perform very similar to a true 60/60 stone.

This particular cut originated with the initial thought that a 60% table and 60% depth would magically create the right proportions for the most light return, or sparkle. In reality, that isn't true and as we've already evidenced in this thread, certain angles will be more complimentary than others.

For a more in-depth explanation, I would really encourage you to read these articles:

https://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/60-60-diamonds-1503.htm
https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/news/6060-ideal-cut-diamond/

Now about being eye clean, this is a personal judgment. While I don't know your sensitivity to clarity I do know that cert looks nasty to me. Even if my eyes couldn't see anything, that cert would drive me insane thinking about it. When a person (like me) feels the need for the cert to look clean so your mind rests easy, this is commonly referred to as "mind clean". That said, even if this stone was eye clean, it would not be mind clean to me. It may not bother you in the least, and I truly hope that is true as I don't like suffering from mind clean issues.

There is NO industry definition for "eye clean", so you need to understand what your jeweler defines as eye clean.

One common definition of eye clean is: No inclusions are visible from 10" away looking at the top of the stone in normal lighting with normal 20/20 vision (and the assumption the viewer can discern differences from 10" away).

Because I am picky, I created my own definition of eye clean to mean: No inclusions visible from 6" away looking at the top or sides of the stone in normal lighting with 20/20 vision (and the assumption the viewer had good enough vision to focus and detect inclusions as close as 6" -- not everyone has vision to do this).

So technically you just need your eyes to determine if the stone is eye clean. I would suggest taking the stone outside away from the jewelry lighting when you examine. Also, I would loupe the stone at 10x to identify the inclusions first and then determine if you can identify the locations using your criteria after you know where they are located. Also, it helps if you and your fiancee will have the same clarity sensitivity. If she is more or less sensitive, then you can adjust as needed.

Generally speaking, you want inclusions to be located so they are hidden (for instance, dark crystals on the arrows). And also so they do not impact light performance.

Also, this article might be good for understanding the different types of inclusions:

https://yourdiamondteacher.com/diamond-4cs/clarity/diamond-inclusion-types-list/

 

[np0001]

Thanks guys!

Definitely @sledge - if it were 10 beers, then I reckon everything would be "eye clean" .

Thanks a heaps for your responses - now that you've mentioned the "mind clean" aspect to it all, it has me wondering - given my mind is OCD and the process for me buying a diamond is stressful as it is, I will definitely need to examine this diamond alongside the certificate quite thoroughly haha ..

@sledge - a question for you. Does this mean that you only buy diamonds with a clarity of VS2 and above to ensure that it is "mind clean" to you?

 

[LBeezy34]

Thanks guys!

Definitely @sledge - if it were 10 beers, then I reckon everything would be "eye clean" .

Thanks a heaps for your responses - now that you've mentioned the "mind clean" aspect to it all, it has me wondering - given my mind is OCD and the process for me buying a diamond is stressful as it is, I will definitely need to examine this diamond alongside the certificate quite thoroughly haha ..

@sledge - a question for you. Does this mean that you only buy diamonds with a clarity of VS2 and above to ensure that it is "mind clean" to you?

Since I bought my stone online and overseas I was worried about "eye clean" SI/VS clarities as you just never know the locations of inclusions.

The gf said she wants it eye clean mainly but also may feel annoyed knowing it's not that clean on the GIA certificate.

I searched for a stone on JA for the super zoom rotations for inclusion locations, but then found a cheaper VVS2 vs a VS2 comparable stone (got real lucky).

Since I didn't want the issue of inclusions I went straight for the bargain VVS2 to ensure eye clean and mind clean. since it's a one-off purchase I thought why not!

If there was a decent discount on the VS2 I would've gone the lower clarity.

 

[Katya DXB]

One thing I do know is if I am dropping this sum of money, I want to buy a stone that is at least half decent and a stone that you all can go on and say "you know what OP, that'll do just fine. You've done enough research to understand and buy this stone."

I've noticed that on a few occasions you have asked if I am comfortable with a 60/60 stone? I have highlighted the above text to re-iterate to you all that I surely am LOL.

Hi Nick,

I'm sorry you are feeling overwhelmed. That was definitely not the purpose!
With what you said above in mind, to keep it simple (-er) my advise would be not to focus too much on specific angles or makes, but to make sure you are getting an XXX with good HCA score (<2). That will help you eliminate poor performers, and you can keep posting specific certificates here if you still want us to comment on them.

I would also recommend that you ask the dealer if he can get you any of the diamonds that sledge suggested in post #42 above. Great options.

As for clarity, it can be hard to determine if a SI1 is eye clean by the certificate only. But good guesses can still be made. On the E/SI1 (cert 5191569800), I think you are likely to be able to spot the crystal because it is dark and central. You might need to look for it, but the thing with inclusions is that once you see it, it can be hard to unsee. It wouldn't bother me in studs or a pendant, but I'd keep noticing it in a ring and I personally wouldn't be cool with it.

I would however be much more comfortable with what sledge found here https://www.fourmine.com/shop/diamond/1485495
Those twinning wisps are transparent and I am 99% sure you won't be able to see a thing.

Likewise, another diamond sledge suggested -
https://taylorandhart.com/us/diamond-search/RN-96628226-GIA-1303274712 -
also has a very high probability of being eye clean because of where the inclusions are located.

Why don't you ask your dealer about these two and if he cannot source them, you can continue posting other options?

Best,
K

 

[sledge]

Thanks guys!

Definitely @sledge - if it were 10 beers, then I reckon everything would be "eye clean" .

Thanks a heaps for your responses - now that you've mentioned the "mind clean" aspect to it all, it has me wondering - given my mind is OCD and the process for me buying a diamond is stressful as it is, I will definitely need to examine this diamond alongside the certificate quite thoroughly haha ..

@sledge - a question for you. Does this mean that you only buy diamonds with a clarity of VS2 and above to ensure that it is "mind clean" to you?

You're welcome!! And thank you for the kind words, much appreciated.

Honestly I'm not scared of the 10 beers. It's the shots I know we will do too because the beer is just a primer, lol. A close buddy of mine lures me out with "it's just a couple of beers". For me that's usually a few beers, 4-5 crown and cokes, 4-5 Jeremiah sweet tea vodka mixed half and half with normal unsweetened tea and a slew of shots spread throughout the evening.

To answer your question about clarity I find myself preferring VS2+ quality but I do not limit myself to that. In my own search I looked at several SI1's. I am just picky. Some are definitley better than others. Some will dip down to SI2's even, and I've seen some really nice ones. But if I'm being honest, my own comfort level would likely preclude an SI2 purchase unless it was a very rare unicorn. There is a much higher probability I'd take an SI1 or VS2.

 

[np0001]

Hello all - hope you’re all having a lovely day.

A bit of a status update here ~ the jeweller has decided to not purchase the stone because it has come back at 96% eye clean. What can I say, you all were right yet again.

If you all ever decide to fly down to Melbourne, let’s get together for a few bevies .

The dealer is in the process of sending me another 3 GIA certificates, which I will post on here (sorry, I hope I’m not doing heads in - but as you can see, I don’t know any better ha ha).

Will keep you posted and hopefully with one of the 3~ I get the green light from you to stroke up a deal!

 

[np0001]

 

[Katya DXB]

Hello all - hope you’re all having a lovely day.

A bit of a status update here ~ the jeweller has decided to not purchase the stone because it has come back at 96% eye clean. What can I say, you all were right yet again.

If you all ever decide to fly down to Melbourne, let’s get together for a few bevies .

The dealer is in the process of sending me another 3 GIA certificates, which I will post on here (sorry, I hope I’m not doing heads in - but as you can see, I don’t know any better ha ha).

Will keep you posted and hopefully with one of the 3~ I get the green light from you to stroke up a deal!

96% eye clean? Funny, I though it can only be 50%. As in, it's either eye lean or it's not

Jokes aside, out of the three options you were presented with, either 2 or 3. I think proportions work better in #2 but I'm a bit worried about the feather in the middle. Is your dealer able to provide pictures or IS/ASET images?

 

[np0001]

96% eye clean? Funny, I though it can only be 50%. As in, it's either eye lean or it's not

Jokes aside, out of the three options you were presented with, either 2 or 3. I think proportions work better in #2 but I'm a bit worried about the feather in the middle. Is your dealer able to provide pictures or IS/ASET images?

LOL ... talk about precision, right? I’m not sure - but I will ask if I can get an image of the stones.

 

[np0001]

Hello all - I have decided to go with the F VS2, just to give me a piece of mind.

The jeweller has sent me the video and she looks gorgeous, but given the video is a little too large to upload, I have taken a few photos, which I would love feedback on.

1) the circle I have made on the photo, is this the cloud present as denoted in the GIA certificate above?
2) if so, I’m assuming this video of the diamond is under 10x magnification?

Kind Regards,
Nick

 

[Katya DXB]

Hi Nick,

Yes it’s the cloud. Those videos are usually magnified by 25x or more. The thickness of that arrow in real life will be less than 1mm. You won’t be able to see anything. In lower clarity grades (SI2 and sometimes SI1) clouds may cause a slight haziness but it is very rarely an issue in VS2. It’s a beautiful stone

Best,
K

 

[np0001]

Hi Nick,

Yes it’s the cloud. Those videos are usually magnified by 25x or more. The thickness of that arrow in real life will be less than 1mm. You won’t be able to see anything. In lower clarity grades (SI2 and sometimes SI1) clouds may cause a slight haziness but it is very rarely an issue in VS2. It’s a beautiful stone

Thanks Katya and to all who have responded! I will definitely be shooting through a photo when purchased!

Best,
K