would it be possible.....(musings on economics of heat treatment)

[rainbowtrout]

Some thoughts on the economics of sapphires:

I was in tiffany''s today and looked at a nice pair of earrings, 2 matched sapphire .25 ct studs in plat, $1800. So I asked if they were heat treated...and not only are all their sapphires heated, but they are "treated with clear colorless substances to improve consistency" (or something like that).....

Well, I got to thinking. If you are a big store like tiffany''s, and you want to have a line of sapphire earrings, say, with a BIG supply of these earrings all over the US, would you really even be able to use natural sapphires? The cost would become prohibitive, and I doubt you could even find that many excellent matched naturals.


Secondly, I was eyeing their sapphires pretty closely, and I noticed something else. These stones were all cut muy muy shallow, allowing Tiff''s to get the most bang for the buck. They were also all a very uniform color all over, I assume due to the heat treatment (no visible color banding from any angle). So perhaps heat treatment has a double economic benefit to the supplier: availiability of uniformly colored stones, and the ability to cut those stones for maximum faceup value, since depth of cut no longer is an issue.


I also noticed that Tiff''s treated sapphires looked much nicer than others I have seen (they were not almost black, for instance). Does this mean they buy nicer roughs or just that they have good lapidaries?


Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

[valeria101]

Date: 1/6/2006 10:20:49 PM
Author:rainbowtrout

I also noticed that Tiff's treated sapphires looked much nicer than others I have seen (they were not almost black, for instance). Does this mean they buy nicer roughs or just that they have good lapidaries?

Let me guess... if they are not shy of invasive treatment, I'd bet that the only thing of interest was the look of the end product, nothing else. And with color enhancement, the initial material would have been unusable for jewelry completely (i.e. impossible to judge 'quality' at all). I doubt that for such rough it is at all important to maximize yield (if the flat cut shapes would even do that, and I don't think they do - on average because sapphire does not come in flat crystals). Those were just badly cut.

I doubt they didn't use natural sapphires because of cost alone (considering the amazing price you mention!) - scarcity and consistency should be the main problem. Those earrings must be selling by the handful...

Anyway, I am glad you mentioned - untreated sapphire is much the centre of conversation on this forum, that is quite easy to loose sight of what a rare treat it is.

 

[bar01]

Date: 1/6/2006 10:20:49 PM
Author:rainbowtrout
Some thoughts on the economics of sapphires:


I was in tiffany's today and looked at a nice pair of earrings, 2 matched sapphire .25 ct studs in plat, $1800. So I asked if they were heat treated...and not only are all their sapphires heated, but they are 'treated with clear colorless substances to improve consistency' (or something like that).....

Any thoughts? Thanks!

Sapphire treatment? Tiffany’s? You know I am going to bite on either of those topics!

That sales person was giving you a load of BS. The journey that lead me to Pricescope and my gals sapphire and diamond engagement ring started after seeing the prototype at Tiffany's on Michigan Ave in Chicago almost two years ago. The sapphire in that Tiffany ring was untreated - or at least the printed tag stated as such - and they were willing to put that on a receipt for me. Now that was the only untreated sapphire ring they had in the case, but the sales person said they do occasionally carry untreated sapphires. This was about two years ago - but I still have the tiffany salespersons card with the ring information, size, price, and "untreated" written on it. Guess I am a bit sentimental.

However, back to the quality issue - Tiffany’s is the place to see what good color sapphires look like (treated or no).

 

[valeria101]

Date: 1/7/2006 8:39:22 AM
Author: Bertrand


The sapphire in that Tiffany ring was untreated - or at least the printed tag stated as such - and they were willing to put that on a receipt for me.

Good point.

I wonder if they do maintain ''double standards'' for the relatively high ticket items or just some types of things (re. you are talking about a ring stone that would have been certified one way or another, the smaller earring stones do not come with such guarantee). It wouldn''t be a surprise if this was the case although the assumption of flawless quality that comes with the brand touches everything - if not especially the items that do not come with a written guarantee or third party grading.

Too bad for a sapphire miner trying to sell their unenhaced quarter carats! Nice as they''d be...

 

[Michael_E]

rainbwtrout,
I doubt if they actually use a "colorless substance to improve consistency". I can''t even figure out what they might mean by "consistency" and, unless they are "fracture filling" the stones with glass, I can''t think of what substance they might be using,( unless they are diffusion treating VERY dark sapphires with beryllium, or diffusing iron and titanium into clear sapphire, a big no-no if it''s not adequately disclosed).

There would not be much reason to heat treat them at all, since heat treating of the darker sapphires from anywhere that I''ve seen has a very modest effect of lightening the stones, (with the exception of the previously mentioned beryllium treatments). The heat treating temperature to produce this lightening effect is also much lower than is needed to reduce silk and deepen color, (who''d want to deepen the color of an already dark sapphire ?). Because the temperature is lower I doubt that the effects of heat would be all that apparent and so these stones may pass through a lab as unheated stones. I think that the salesperson was perhaps blowing smoke.

Most of the deeply saturated sapphires from places like East Africa and Australia will cut very fine blue stones if they are cut in the 3mm to 6mm range. The ending color depends on the colors and saturations of the two different colored axes of the crystal being cut. In many of these deeply colored stones, one of the axes may be a very light shade of blue to nearly clear, while the other axis may be very deeply colored. In this case the ending color will be a fantastic rich blue...if the stone is cut to the right size and at the right angles. This cutting requires the right design and very good polishing and so some of that price may be justified by better quality cutting.

When looking at these small stones it may appear that they have been cut very shallowly, when in fact they have been very well cut as is evidenced by the lack of face up windowing and the fine even color in these stones. There are a LOT more small stones available worlwide than large ones and so it is fairly easy to see them being able to get as many well matched pairs as they would want, (especially at those prices as it wold give them the "pick of the litter" !).

I am curious and you might ask them further about the "clear substance" and whether these stones are actually diffusion treated stones. I would doubt it, as it could affect their reputation, but you never know anymore.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 1/7/2006 1:08:20 PM
Author: Michael_E

I can''t even figure out what they might mean by ''consistency'' ...

Same here, but this is no joke...

Look what the list of accepted treatments on Tiffany.com says about corundum:


"Enhancement accepted by Tiffany & Co : For all varieties of corundum: Heated to improve color and clarity. Infused with substances to improve color and clarity."


The citation comes from HERE.


No doubt certification is available for important stones, but for anything without paper... this is what the quality mark stands for.

 

[strmrdr]

I wonder if they are using flux healing with sythetic material.
Thats the only thing I can think of other than glass or leaded glass but im no expert not even close when it comes to sapphires.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Hey guys,

Just to clarify, this was not the salesperson''s word--she took out a little blue and white Tiffany booklet with the treatments listed on it. My impression was that unless they say otherwise, those two treatments have probably been performed.

I''m inclined to agree with Bertrand and Valeria--the big, one of a kind pieces probably use naturals, but smaller, bigger production ones might not.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 1/7/2006 1:20:46 PM
Author: valeria101

Date: 1/7/2006 1:08:20 PM

Author: Michael_E


I can''t even figure out what they might mean by ''consistency'' ...

Same here, but this is no joke...


Look what the list of accepted treatments on Tiffany.com says about corundum:



''Enhancement accepted by Tiffany & Co : For all varieties of corundum: Heated to improve color and clarity. Infused with substances to improve color and clarity.''



The citation comes from HERE.



No doubt certification is available for important stones, but for anything without paper... this is what the quality mark stands for.

Yes, that was it exactly. Sorry about the "consistency" bit, brain fart. By the way, we took my mom''s kitten with us and everyone seemed to get a kick out of it...so fyi, cats are allowed in Tiffany''s, apparently.

 

[JulieN]

so, $1800 for sapphire .25 ct studs is inexpensive?

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 1/7/2006 9:41:43 PM
Author: JulieN
so, $1800 for sapphire .25 ct studs is inexpensive?

In referance to what? For Tiffany''s this price surely allows them a fat profit margin as they use heated stones...for me personally...no, I think it''s quite expensive.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 1/7/2006 9:41:43 PM
Author: JulieN
so, $1800 for sapphire .25 ct studs is inexpensive?

No...

Just the number relative to the cost of sapphire rings (i.e. those built around a relatively large sapphire that may be certified) at the same shop.

Anyway, I was trying to set aside two types of merchandise - large stones that get idividual attention re. enhancement and certification, and small ones that are simply covered by the general statement about 'acceptable tratements' cited above.


Btw. how much would a quarter carat color enhanced blue sapphires cost? $10?

 

[Edward Bristol]

Mass-market sapphire jewelry has become possible only via sapphire treatment (all mass-market, be it $50 or $5000 per piece)

or, the other way around:

Untreated sapphires always require (and deserve) individual settings.

Edward Bristol
www.wildfishgems.com

 

[PrecisionGem]

I would think that $1800 for .25 ct. studs would be very very expensive. I would typically sell a small sapphire for $200 -$300 per ct. so 2 .25ct stones would be around $100. You should be able to get any jeweler to mount them in studs for $100 or less.

 

[Richard M.]

Date: 1/9/2006 10:28:55 AM
Author: PrecisionGem
I would think that $1800 for .25 ct. studs would be very very expensive. I would typically sell a small sapphire for $200 -$300 per ct. so 2 .25ct stones would be around $100. You should be able to get any jeweler to mount them in studs for $100 or less.

Your gem/jewelry economics are right on. But you''ve overlooked the fact that the little blue box with "Tiffany & Co." embossed on it costs $1,600, LOL.

 

[sylvesterii]

Date: 1/9/2006 12:02:43 PM
Author: Richard M.

Date: 1/9/2006 10:28:55 AM
Author: PrecisionGem
I would think that $1800 for .25 ct. studs would be very very expensive. I would typically sell a small sapphire for $200 -$300 per ct. so 2 .25ct stones would be around $100. You should be able to get any jeweler to mount them in studs for $100 or less.

Your gem/jewelry economics are right on. But you''ve overlooked the fact that the little blue box with ''Tiffany & Co.'' embossed on it costs $1,600, LOL.

you can''t forget about the hourly wage of that helpful employee who could read the tiffany & co. book, who I am sure is an "expert." so, $1,500 for the box, $100 for book consultation.