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jwa1990

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 6, 2015
Messages
16
Hello

I hope I have come to the right place and ultimately I know I need to get my diamond appraised. HOwever, I bought my diamond from a reputable "antique" dealer in Dublin around 3 weeks ago and honestly have not been able to enjoy it since. He allowed me to have the ring appraised "independently" in advance of paying for it, but he recommended the person I should bring it to and I feel he gives her a lot of business so I am not sure how independent I would call her. The ring is a 1.1 ct stone with baguettes on either side of the main stone. So my issues with it are as follows:

1. following research I did after getting the ring, I would say the cut is quite shallow in order to give it the appearance of a larger stone and as such sometimes when I look at the stone in daylight it appears to look like glass and is rather lifeless. There is also a shadow that appears in the stone when I tilt it at a certain angle that comes from the centre of the stone. It is not a fish eye, but I think it does have something to do with leaking light.

2. Over the weekend I started examining the baguettes and I really have a feeling they may not be real. they are 100% transparent, i.e. I can read print through them. I know this is one of the tests to see if a diamond is real or fake but does this test also apply to a baguette cut diamond?!

HELP!!!! I really want to enjoy my ring and should have known with the type of personality that questions everything and anayses a lot.. I should have gone down the road of getting a GIA certified stone for peace of mind!!!

Thank you!!!!
 
Hello, I have had great dealing with JW Weldons just off Grafton St, behind BTs, ring Garret and have a chat with him. Let me know how you get on. What CERT came with your ring, also do you have a 30 day money back if your not happy?
 
Hi jwa1990,

I would take it to a different (unbiased) appraiser. Its an old cut stone correct? Not a modern round brilliant?
Depending on the setting the appraiser may or may not be able to tell you how deep it is. Nice old stones tend to run
deep.

If what is happening is bothering you too much and it you are still within your return period then I would return it.
If it's something that you only see occasionally then you have to decide if you can live with it.

Can you post any pictures?
 
I might well be a transitional stone so in between an Old European Cut and a Modern Brilliant cut and this is why it is spready. Alternatively it could just be a shallow flatty OEC - there are plenty of badly cut ones out there. Can you take some good photos of it looking straight on into the stone and we can (if you can get good clear photos) have a go at assessing what we see for you.

No well cut diamond should look glassy and see through the only ones that are well cut that sometimes can are Rose cuts.
 
If it looks glassy and lifeless to you, I would return the ring and continue looking elsewhere.
 
Hi All thanks for your advice. I didnt get any money back guarantee as I really thought the independent appraisal would be enough. I contacted another appraiser about getting it appraised a second time, but they don't do it unless the ring is two years post purchase. I have attached three pictures of the ring. I dont think I will have peace of mind until I get someone completely independent to advise me on it. Really hope I am being paranoid.

needless to say It didnt come with a cert.

ring_198.jpg

ring_199.jpg

ring_200.jpg
 
I am not sure of the resolution you are looking for. What recourse do you have if the appraisal results in the colour and clarity as not stated? The diamond looks like a modern round brilliant.
 
Ok, so I have no doubt about the color . its an I-J and the independent appraiser said the same. I am ok with that. Also the clarity is meant to be a VS1. HOWEVER< my concern is the cut. since I have bought the ring, I realise cut is king when you are wearing it! the appraiser said it is a very good cut from what she can see without taking the stone out. the appraiser is GIA qualified. BUT, from the online research I did, I am not confident that the cut is very good. in terms of recourse, I will just have to kick up a stink and get consumer affairs involved if I have been conned!!! what do you think from looking at the picture?
 
also just to add.. surely the appraiser would have a lot to answer for in terms of the professional body they are associated with if they are not carrying out appraisals according to the recommendations of GIA etc.?!
 
There is a significant difference in performance between VG and Ideal/Excellent cut. Since the stone does not come with a GIA lab report, all you have is the word of the vendor and appraiser and I also do not know what is their cut grading criteria. I am not sure whether you have any recourse. I am also not sure how much power Consumer Affairs has.

ETA
I do not know about in the UK but there are plenty of gemmologists and appraisers in the USA with GIA training that do a very poor job.
 
I may not have any recourse but surely if I can prove that I was misled and could potentially expose the jeweller for misleading me then he will have to be open to discussing with me.?! like if I can get someone to say the baguettes are not actual diamonds??
 
I honestly do not think you were intentionally mislead. I think you did not do your homework upfront and understandably, you have serious doubts and questions about your purchase. When you brought the ring to the first appraiser, did she/he not examine the baguettes too? Poorly cut step cuts like baguettes can end up looking glassy (read print through them). The first thing I would do is to find out what your recourse is with the original shop. Is it refundable? If not, can you exchange the ring?
 
Thanks Chrono. The funny thing is though I did my homework.. or so I thought! I was two months researching and looking for my ring... however, I didnt realise that its only when you are wearing it under different lights that you really get to see how good/bad the cut is! yes the baguettes were also examined.

based on the photos I sent do you think I should just suck it up or explore what is is that is bothering me! I do actually love the ring.. what I am hating more would be if I have paid hard earned money on something that is worthless! :wall:
 
I imagine The only way it will be refundable is if I can prove that it is not what they said it was. secondly in terms of exchanging, I think my personality type (i.e. analyse everything) is just not suited to a non-certified ring (shame I am only realising this now) so I reckon any ring I get from there I will have the same niggling doubts over. :-(
 
I am concerned that you may grow to dislike the ring as you learn more about it. :(sad Sometimes it is best to leave things as it is.
 
and I appreciate how tactful you are being! however, problem is , I wont grow to love it until I know what the issue is. Do you think the appraiser should have pointed out any potential issues to me if there was complete independence involved?!
 
Independence of the appraiser is one thing, the skill of the appraiser is another thing.
 
In that regard, I would be very surprised if skill was an issue. highly qualified from what I can see and in business for over 30 years. the issue I have with going back to the retailer is that I cannot say exactly what is wrong with the stone.. i.e. light leakage etc and he is well able to talk the talk so will just talk over me. so thats why I wanted to be informed before going back to him.

my fiance doesnt know any of this as he wasnt convinced we should buy there in the first place. should have listented to him.
 
jwa1990 said:
Hello

I hope I have come to the right place and ultimately I know I need to get my diamond appraised. HOwever, I bought my diamond from a reputable "antique" dealer in Dublin around 3 weeks ago and honestly have not been able to enjoy it since. He allowed me to have the ring appraised "independently" in advance of paying for it, but he recommended the person I should bring it to and I feel he gives her a lot of business so I am not sure how independent I would call her. The ring is a 1.1 ct stone with baguettes on either side of the main stone. So my issues with it are as follows:

1. following research I did after getting the ring, I would say the cut is quite shallow in order to give it the appearance of a larger stone and as such sometimes when I look at the stone in daylight it appears to look like glass and is rather lifeless. There is also a shadow that appears in the stone when I tilt it at a certain angle that comes from the centre of the stone. It is not a fish eye, but I think it does have something to do with leaking light.

2. Over the weekend I started examining the baguettes and I really have a feeling they may not be real. they are 100% transparent, i.e. I can read print through them. I know this is one of the tests to see if a diamond is real or fake but does this test also apply to a baguette cut diamond?!

HELP!!!! I really want to enjoy my ring and should have known with the type of personality that questions everything and anayses a lot.. I should have gone down the road of getting a GIA certified stone for peace of mind!!!

Thank you!!!!
Click to expand...

The shadow you are referring to when you tilt the diamond might be the tilt window. All diamonds have them when you tilt them enough. If you want to seek recourse with the store, you might want to do it fast as I suppose that's a return/exchange window. Maybe you could start a thread with a shoutout to UK PSers as they might know of reliable independent appraisers.
 
With all due respect IMO the seller and 'appraiser' sound blameless here.
You are just too knowledgeable now for what is typical in the diamond selling business.

Yes cut is king, but defining it is not as black and white as defining weight or even color.
Sellers can exploit this vagueness to their advantage.

IMO you have no recourse regarding the 'independence' of the appraiser the seller called in.
After knowing the seller picked the appraiser you bought it anyway.
You should have insisted on selecting the appraiser.
If the seller refused you should have walked.

IMO, you have made the mistakes here, but you are not accepting responsibility.
I think you are trying to blame others for your mistakes.

Sorry for the tough love here, but with it's history and your current higher knowledge of cut I'd just take your lumps, sell it for whatever you can get for it, and move on.

You should really love and feel good about what you wear on your finger.
Good luck.
 
jwa1990|1434359636|3889368 said:
There is also a shadow that appears in the stone when I tilt it at a certain angle that comes from the centre of the stone. It is not a fish eye, but I think it does have something to do with leaking light.
Click to expand...

Are you are talking about a darkish line near the middle of the pavilion, the bottom part of the diamond, that's only visible in the side view?
It is normal and all real round diamonds have that.
It's just a reflection that is the result of the shape and the way diamonds reflect light.



As to concern the side diamonds may not be real, any jeweler or pawn shop should have a diamond tester they will use for you.

screen_shot_2015-06-15_at_10.png
 
It wouldn't hurt to go back and see if the seller will take it back. Go in and kindly explain that after viewing your ring in different lighting and environments, you just don't love it. If it's just been bought, he/she just may take it back.

It really can't hurt to ask and to talk to the seller. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten around things by being honest and up front in a really nice way (not being confrontational). I think you may have a better chance than trying to find something to use against him/her in order to force the seller to take it back.
 
Can you spend any more money on a ring? You could tell the seller you would like to upgrade to a bigger stone or a stone with
better clarity/cut etc. If you spend more money he may take you up on it. :appl:

But before you go after a different stone...make sure you learn as much as you can. Look at it in all different lighting conditions.
 
Just spent ages typing a reply that didnt post ( I think!).

Anyway, thank you all for the great advice. Kenny, I know I am accountable of course if this was a bad buy, however, I guess I am just surprised that people that are in business for 20-30 years can sell diamonds that are potentially poor quality, and not get found out?! how does that happen?! do most people take things at face value? perhaps thats a better way to be. I would genuinely be disgusted if the appraiser is "backing up" the word of the seller and not standing true to her trade.

the issue is not atall with the side view. surely people can see what I am seeing with the shadow in the ring, ? I think it is caused by a shallow cut. Does a tilt window occur in diamonds? thought it was just in coloured stones. also, the issue I have that the stone doesnt sparkle in certain lighting, i.e. daylight with no sunshine. I understand a great stone will sparkle in any light.

I do like the stone and the ring a lot.... I just wish I could become "mind-clean" about it and be happy with it. I feel if I go back to the seller about it I could ultimately end up keeping the ring, and instead I will have some bad feelings towards it. I think I made the mistake of choosing carot size over cut as I know for the budget I had I would not have afforded the same size stone with an excellent or ideal cut grade.

Also, if the internet did not exist , I think I would be none the wiser and be thrilled with my ring. :wall:
 
You say you went for size over cut. That is a compromise that most of us need to make at some point. We often have to pick between size, color or clarity, etc. You went for size. It seems that you know that you would not have gotten an ideal cut diamond of this size for your budget so I guess I'm wondering if you are now looking for a smaller stone with a better cut and if so, do you think that will make you happy since you went for size the first time around. Most of us would want a stone that had everything, but many of us cannot afford that. On this board, "cut is king" but that isn't necessarily true for everyone. For many people, size is king.

You started out your thread saying you wanted to make sure you weren't cheated or sold a worthless stone. I think you have answered your own question by saying you know that your budget couldn't purchase an ideal cut stone at this size. I think you are regretting your choice at this point but it doesn't sound like the jeweler or appraiser are at fault here. I'd go back to the jeweler and explain your regrets and see if they will accept the ring back for a smaller diamond of higher quality or as someone else suggested, up your budget a bit and see if that will encourage the jeweler to make the trade for a better stone.
 
jwa1990|1434394927|3889541 said:
... I am just surprised that people that are in business for 20-30 years can sell diamonds that are potentially poor quality, and not get found out?! how does that happen?! do most people take things at face value? perhaps thats a better way to be. I would genuinely be disgusted if the appraiser is "backing up" the word of the seller and not standing true to her trade.

the issue is not atall with the side view. surely people can see what I am seeing with the shadow in the ring, ? I think it is caused by a shallow cut. Does a tilt window occur in diamonds? thought it was just in coloured stones. also, the issue I have that the stone doesnt sparkle in certain lighting, i.e. daylight with no sunshine. I understand a great stone will sparkle in any light.

I do like the stone and the ring a lot.... I just wish I could become "mind-clean" about it and be happy with it. I feel if I go back to the seller about it I could ultimately end up keeping the ring, and instead I will have some bad feelings towards it. I think I made the mistake of choosing carot size over cut as I know for the budget I had I would not have afforded the same size stone with an excellent or ideal cut grade.

Also, if the internet did not exist , I think I would be none the wiser and be thrilled with my ring. :wall:
Click to expand...


You wrote, "I understand a great stone will sparkle in any light. "
This is not true.
In flat even lighting, such as outside on a 100% overcast day, no diamond will sparkle, though a better-cut diamond will look brighter overall since more light is being reflected back to your eyes instead of leaking out side sides and bottom.

Keep in mind well-cut diamonds are even today a very small (but growing :Up_to_something: ) percentage of all diamonds sold.
Most diamonds are cut to get the heaviest diamonds possible out of every piece of rough diamond.
Cutting to 'well-cut' proportions means, polishing away ("wasting"?) more of the rough diamond material and ending up with a, say, 0.7 ct instead of a 1.0 ct.
Since every diamond shopper understands weight but few understand the importance of good cut (let alone how to recognize it) I don't blame the industry for selling poorly-cut diamonds.
The industry is a for-profit business selling to mostly ignorant customers, not a charity.
This is very very sad to those of us who understand good cut, but it is simply the economic reality of the diamond business.

Even then, the good-cut revolution is new.
People shopping for antique diamonds will have an even more difficult time finding good light performance in an old cut than shoppers for newly-cut diamonds.
I'd guess any antique diamonds that have good light performance only have it because the rough just happened to be shaped such that retaining maximum weight happened to be the proportions needed for good light performance ... a happy accident from nature.

I'm sorry this has been a disappointing experience for you.
If you can't exchange it one possible 'solution' I'd consider is getting it recut to proportions that deliver better light performance.
Then I'd get it graded by a good lab like GIA or AGS.
Of course you will loose some weight (and value), but perhaps not any diameter if it was cut deep.

One diamond seller I'd trust to recut a diamond for me is Brian Gavin at www.briangavindiamonds.com
They are in Texas, USA.
I think it's a few hundred dollars.
 
jwa1990|1434394927|3889541 said:
Just spent ages typing a reply that didnt post ( I think!).

Anyway, thank you all for the great advice. Kenny, I know I am accountable of course if this was a bad buy, however, I guess I am just surprised that people that are in business for 20-30 years can sell diamonds that are potentially poor quality, and not get found out?! how does that happen?! do most people take things at face value? perhaps thats a better way to be. I would genuinely be disgusted if the appraiser is "backing up" the word of the seller and not standing true to her trade.
Click to expand...

Not everyone values the cut over everything else. If they tried to sell diamonds by saying "these are of okay quality" they'd be out of business in heartbeat. It your job as the consumer to research and spend your money on what you value. It's the business' job to sell what they say they are selling. You placed size above cut and the seller, rightly in my opinion, went with it. Of all my friends I'm honestly the only one who gives a damn about diamonds. They wear them and to my knowledge don't think about them day in and day out like I do.

What would you have said if he said, "here, purchase this half carat, at the same price, because it's top of the range"? Their jobs is to show you what what your money could buy within the parameters your specified. If you were drawn to the big shiny rock, that's fine, and most people would stop there, quit looking and be happy. You weren't. That's okay, but it's not on the seller that you made a choice.

I'm with the chorus. Try to return it and if you can't perhaps exchange it. If you can't do that either, sell it, probably at a loss, and replace it with something you love. Or just realise that while you may not like it any better in 11 years, you won't think about it much either. It's a lovely style...but I'm biased, mine is the baby sister.
 
Ok so even what you guys are saying here is making me feel a bit better about it. I guess yes maybe I chose size... HOWever, at the time, given I did not realise the importance of cut, I thought that it was because I was going for an I-J color that brought the price down.. cut was not really mentioned... only when I asked the appraiser about it. I only learned the importance of it when I started researching what could potentially be considered flaws in mine.

you are right though, cut may not really be imprtant to people who dont analyse their rings and just accept that they are beautiful. I dont think getting the stone recut will ever be an extreme I will go to, nor will exchanging it. If I go down that road my fiance will "know" that his hard earned money went on something that might not be that valuable and secondly if I end up with a ring from the same place.. thats not certified.. he will never be happy with it! the only good solution here would be a refund and I know before asking I wont get that from the guy in question.

also talking to some friends... some of them say for about a month afer getting their rings they were uneasy about them and said after that it subsided....
 
One more question... surely there are "antique" stlyle rings being made seeing as they are so popular. on my search I saw far too many styles , all the same , from the same era to make it believable.... this time I am not hiding my cynisism!!!
 
jwa1990|1434399921|3889566 said:
One more question... surely there are "antique" stlyle rings being made seeing as they are so popular. on my search I saw far too many styles , all the same , from the same era to make it believable.... this time I am not hiding my cynisism!!!
Click to expand...

I think you are talking about settings, not diamonds.

But just FYI here's a diamond that is cut today to look like the one of the antique cutting patterns, yet cut to angles/proportions that give them superb light performance.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/ecommerce/catalogsearch/advanced/result/?name=&sku=&price%5Bfrom%5D=&price%5Bto%5D=&optical_symmetry%5B0%5D=176&inhouseproduct=&order=price&dir=desc

I've seen August Vintage Round diamonds in person.
They certainly rank among the world's best-cut diamonds.

Antique patterning with modern top of the line light performance, what's not to love?
Here's a video comparing it to a modern round, with the antique look on the left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKfjnzKqTRs

The seller's website: www.goodoldgold.com in NY.
 
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