Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And...

[gemandjewelrylover]

Are some stones more susceptible to them? Or is it completely a result of cut?

If the price is good on a gem, and that was its only flaw, would you forgive a window? And try to close it with the setting?

Of course, I'm not talking Sotheby's or Christie's worthy pieces, but ones average CS nuts would buy.

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

"Also bear in mind, some of the most valuable gemstones on earth have been cut to preserve weight and so may be windowed but don't be put off buying them because you could be missing out on a real bargain!"

I see this in the colored stones advice sticky from TL, so I guess the answer is yes.....? I'm interested in people's' opinions.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Both my alexandrite and ruby have a window. Alex is still in design phase and ruby is complete. But when I have the Alex over my fingers, the window is muted considerably to the point I barely notice it. With the ruby, I don't see the window at all when I wear it, and when I don't wear it, well, I don't see the window then either because I am not wearing it, LOL. That I see it when it's in the jewelry box only is okay with me, but I realize others wouldn't feel the same. Because I LOVED the color and sparkle of both stones so much, and the price points were comfortable for me, it was worth me compromising the "part-time" window. And so far I have no regrets.

 

[missy]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Depends.

If every time I look at the stone I am going to be bothered by the window then it would bother me and take away from my enjoyment of the stone. If the window detracts (and distracts) from its beauty in my eyes and it cannot be closed in the setting it would matter to me.

However if I could close the window by setting the stone I would be OK with that especially if the stone is rare and special. Because once it is set if I am in love with the color and everything else about the gem and the window is not visible to me that's just fine. I just don't want to be looking at a window every time I admire my gem because that would bother me.

As for if some gems are more susceptible to windows I think the answer is yes and cut matters with regards to this. You can cut a stone to minimize or eliminate the window but you will lose weight so I think that factor is part of the decision when cutting gems. I will let the gemstone experts here chime in and answer this for you though because I am just an admirer of gems and not an aficionado.

 

[chrono]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Whether a stone shows a window or not is due to cutting. The lapidary will decide whether the trade off is worth it. There are many reasons why a window is done (yes, it is sometimes done deliberately).
1. Try to reach a specific carat weight mark to make the $/ct price jump
2. Try to lighten a darker toned piece of rough to allow more light into the stone
3. The rough material is shallow and expensive, so the lapidary tries to preserve as much as he/she can.

For stones such as aquamarine, morganite, pyrope garnet, amethyst, citrine, blue topaz, smoky topaz, green tourmaline, and the like, they are inexpensive enough and found in abundant quantities easily where there is little reason to accept a poorly cut stone, even in large sizes. The same goes for certain spinel, garnet, and sapphire colours.

What is your definition of rare stones? Huge size? Rare colour? Rare gem type? I'm not sure that what the average CSer purchases is considered rare. It might be unfamiliar to the regular masses but to those who know more about gemstones, they are considered common. I think most CSers buy tourmaline, garnet, sapphire, spinel, beryl and quartz in the sub 3 carat range.

Tolerance on windowing is a personal limit. Some people are more forgiving of this than others. Some cannot have a window whatsoever. Some don't mind a small window that can be "closed up" in a setting. For me, colour always comes first. I'm not a stickler about no windowing if the colour is perfect but it cannot be a gaping door. If the colour is very rare and difficult to procure, I can forgive a small window. I am doubtful that the price will be good on gems that fall into the top colour range though. An example would be a 5 carat untreated top colour Burmese ruby (not that I can afford one in the first place ) but I will certainly forgive a small to medium sized window.

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Hi! Thank you all for your posts.

Yes, I'm talking about rare stones such as Paraiba Tourmalines, Burma rubies, alexandrites, sometimes FCDs, etc. cases where the stone is rare and valuable, and I think they are trying to preserve weight to keep value up or just because there isn't much available of that stone. Of course on common stones that are still readily available, people can be much pickier and wait for the perfect stone. On the rarer stones that don't come along that often, sometimes you have to compromise. I was just wondering how forgiving people would be in such cases.

 

[chrono]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

No matter how rare the gem is and how inventive the setting is, I cannot accept a window this large:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/well-thats-one-way-to-handle-a-huge-window.196345/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/well-thats-one-way-to-handle-a-huge-window.196345/[/URL]

 

[the_mother_thing]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

No matter how rare the gem is and how inventive the setting is, I cannot accept a window this large:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/well-thats-one-way-to-handle-a-huge-window.196345/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/well-thats-one-way-to-handle-a-huge-window.196345/[/URL]

Ditto! That poor pad!

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

I remember that thread. I not a fan of that look either. I would never want to see a perfectly good stone ruined like that.
I suppose trying to salvage a very bad cut might be a good reason to try it, I guess there was a chance it might have turned out well. But that stone and the lifesaver stones don't do anything for me. Not even sure I like the Kiss of the Rose ring either, but maybe it's more beautiful in person.

Of course I'm not talking about windows THAT big! Lol

I'm talking about something like this.

 

[LD]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

The answer is "yes".

If you have rare material then it is often cut to preserve weight (and maximise cost). Most of my Paraiba Tourmalines and Alexandrites have windows (some tiny, some rather too big for comfort). However you have to decide whether the window detracts from your love of the stone and whether you could buy something without a window. Often the answer is that you can't.

If you can find a stone of the same size and colour without a window then obviously it's preferable but often you'll be chasing rainbows trying to find it!

Oh and by the way it was me, not TL, who you've quoted!

 

[T L]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

I remember that thread. I not a fan of that look either. I would never want to see a perfectly good stone ruined like that.
I suppose trying to salvage a very bad cut might be a good reason to try it, I guess there was a chance it might have turned out well. But that stone and the lifesaver stones don't do anything for me. Not even sure I like the Kiss of the Rose ring either, but maybe it's more beautiful in person.

Of course I'm not talking about windows THAT big! Lol

I'm talking about something like this.

That gem is very included, and is more about color than sparkle, so in that case, I personally could accept that window. However, it's a highly personal matter, and some people cannot tolerate windows at all. If I had a very clean gem that is sizable, yet not super rare material, than I probably couldn't tolerate the window as much.

I think the Logan sapphire in the Smithsonian is a perfect example of size, color tradeoff with a huge window. If they can put that gem on display at a very famous museum, than I think it's acceptable to have a window in a rare gem. Many gems are not cut for beauty, but for size, and on PS, many people are spoiled by precision lapidaries. In the old days, gems were never cut that well, and there are many beautiful and rare gems out there with horrid cutting.

 

[T L]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

The answer is "yes".

If you have rare material then it is often cut to preserve weight (and maximise cost). Most of my Paraiba Tourmalines and Alexandrites have windows (some tiny, some rather too big for comfort). However you have to decide whether the window detracts from your love of the stone and whether you could buy something without a window. Often the answer is that you can't.

If you can find a stone of the same size and colour without a window then obviously it's preferable but often you'll be chasing rainbows trying to find it!

Oh and by the way it was me, not TL, who you've quoted!

Thanks, I was trying to figure out what I said??? LOL!

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Oops! Sorry about that, LD! Your thread is very informative and helpful.

If I like the stone, and the window isn't hugely distracting and can be minimized or closed with a setting, then I personally would be quite forgiving of it. I just wondered if I was in the minority or not.

 

[LD]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Oops! Sorry about that, LD! Your thread is very informative and helpful.

If I like the stone, and the window isn't hugely distracting and can be minimized or closed with a setting, then I personally would be quite forgiving of it. I just wondered if I was in the minority or not.

It depends what stone you're talking about. Many collectors only buy precision cut stones but (for me) they miss out on a host of material that might be available. It's very much personal preference as TL has said. Many years ago I bought a 4ct Paraiba with stunning colour. It had a much larger window than I wanted. I discussed on here whether to recut it or not BUT the general consensus was that if it were recut I would lose too much in terms of weight and therefore value. Whilst I could have improved the look of the stone, the value would have plummeted. I decided to keep it as it was. I set it a few years ago and the window minimised but it's still there. I don't regret not cutting it!

 

[T L]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Oops! Sorry about that, LD! Your thread is very informative and helpful.

If I like the stone, and the window isn't hugely distracting and can be minimized or closed with a setting, then I personally would be quite forgiving of it. I just wondered if I was in the minority or not.

I have several cuprians with windows, and to be honest, the windows don't bother me at all. I usually get more compliments on them than I do on stones with better faceting because the color is so nice. I have one with a giant inclusion running across the gem, and an enormous window. The faceting is horrible, way worse than the one you showed, but people always grab my hand to look it when I'm wearing it. The color is everything.

 

[JewelFreak]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

I'm one who really can't handle a window at all. In a holy grail like a paraiba tourmaline, if I could ever afford one, I still would not enjoy the stone -- unless the window were small enough to close up when set. In that case it would be ok -- in fact, the blue spinel in my avatar has a teeny tiny weeny window that I didn't even notice the first few days. Then, miniscule as it is, it made me nuts. It has disappeared entirely in the setting -- I specifically discussed that with Michael E. when working on CADs & he fixed it up.

Color is most important, but for me, cut comes a very close second because I admire so much the skill to take a pretty rock made by nature & turn it into a brilliant piece of colored light.

--- Laurie

 

[T L]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Oops! Sorry about that, LD! Your thread is very informative and helpful.

If I like the stone, and the window isn't hugely distracting and can be minimized or closed with a setting, then I personally would be quite forgiving of it. I just wondered if I was in the minority or not.

It depends what stone you're talking about. Many collectors only buy precision cut stones but (for me) they miss out on a host of material that might be available. It's very much personal preference as TL has said. Many years ago I bought a 4ct Paraiba with stunning colour. It had a much larger window than I wanted. I discussed on here whether to recut it or not BUT the general consensus was that if it were recut I would lose too much in terms of weight and therefore value. Whilst I could have improved the look of the stone, the value would have plummeted. I decided to keep it as it was. I set it a few years ago and the window minimised but it's still there. I don't regret not cutting it!

It could have lost saturation too, not just weight. Saturation of color is always a major concern when considering a recut.

So glad you didn't cut it.

 

[T L]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

GemandJewelryLover,
If you are considering that cuprian, I just wanted to note that many are fracture filled these days, so I hope it has a lab report. Fracture filling might also be something that bothers you, besides a window.

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Yes, everything comes with a lab report in that store, and they only deal with natural stones, nothing more than heat. Of course fracture filling would be a deal breaker for me.

I was just admiring it, and wondering about the window issue.

"That gem is very included, and is more about color than sparkle, so in that case, I personally could accept that window. However, it's a highly personal matter, and some people cannot tolerate windows at all. If I had a very clean gem that is sizable, yet not super rare material, than I probably couldn't tolerate the window as much."

That stone is a 4.48 ct Brazilian Paraiba Tourmaline - you think it's very included? (The iPad photos don't really do it justice) It looked fairly clean to me IRL, as far as most Brazilian Paraibas I've seen go. The store had a 4 ct Mozambique Paraiba pendant too that was much cleaner but the color was much lighter. I thought the color of this one was more attractive though.

 

[gemandjewelrylover]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

I keep looking for the "like" button on posts here! Facebook has ruined me.

 

[T L]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Yes, everything comes with a lab report in that store, and they only deal with natural stones, nothing more than heat. Of course fracture filling would be a deal breaker for me.

I was just admiring it, and wondering about the window issue.

"That gem is very included, and is more about color than sparkle, so in that case, I personally could accept that window. However, it's a highly personal matter, and some people cannot tolerate windows at all. If I had a very clean gem that is sizable, yet not super rare material, than I probably couldn't tolerate the window as much."

That stone is a 4.48 ct Brazilian Paraiba Tourmaline - you think it's very included? (The iPad photos don't really do it justice) It looked fairly clean to me IRL, as far as most Brazilian Paraibas I've seen go. The store had a 4 ct Mozambique Paraiba pendant too that was much cleaner but the color was much lighter. I thought the color of this one was more attractive though.

It doesn't look eye clean to me, and the inclusions look very substantial. I would say its moderately included by the photo. However, what you see in person, and what I see in a photo may be very different.

I would go with the more included Brazilian paraiba with better color over the cleaner, and lighter Mozambique stone. Inclusions also do not bother me that much if the color is great. I'm not a stickler for cut or clarity when it comes to amazing color. I've worn some stones that have cut/clarity that are awful beyond belief, but you can see the color from across a room.

Again, this is subjective, so you should go with what you like.

 

[LD]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Mmmmm Gemandjewelerylover - I would be suspicious of anybody who has a 4ct Brazilian in that colour at the moment unless it was Pala or Paraiba International or one or two others. Please proceed with caution because from what you've said it doesn't "sound" right. Can you share the asking price of both gems?

 

[FrekeChild]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

I've forgiven windows if the color knocks my socks off.

It's really a personal preference

 

[minousbijoux]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Depends.

If every time I look at the stone I am going to be bothered by the window then it would bother me and take away from my enjoyment of the stone. If the window detracts (and distracts) from its beauty in my eyes and it cannot be closed in the setting it would matter to me.

However if I could close the window by setting the stone I would be OK with that especially if the stone is rare and special. Because once it is set if I am in love with the color and everything else about the gem and the window is not visible to me that's just fine. I just don't want to be looking at a window every time I admire my gem because that would bother me.

This exactly.

 

[kenny]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Sometimes a rare and beautiful color is the only reason to buy a stone, as in my fully-natural Fancy Intense Orangy Pink diamond.
It's has a bay window and is I1 but I love it.

… and I'm not mad at that hot pink fluorescence.

 

[minousbijoux]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Oops! Sorry about that, LD! Your thread is very informative and helpful.

If I like the stone, and the window isn't hugely distracting and can be minimized or closed with a setting, then I personally would be quite forgiving of it. I just wondered if I was in the minority or not.

It depends what stone you're talking about. Many collectors only buy precision cut stones but (for me) they miss out on a host of material that might be available. It's very much personal preference as TL has said. Many years ago I bought a 4ct Paraiba with stunning colour. It had a much larger window than I wanted. I discussed on here whether to recut it or not BUT the general consensus was that if it were recut I would lose too much in terms of weight and therefore value. Whilst I could have improved the look of the stone, the value would have plummeted. I decided to keep it as it was. I set it a few years ago and the window minimised but it's still there. I don't regret not cutting it!

Hi LD - so happy you decided to pop over and pay us a visit!

As you've said, the palatability of windows is a personal preference thing, and on this, I wish I shared your approach. But for me, it doesn't matter how amazing the color of the stone or its rarity is, if it has a window, I just can't see beyond it. I imagine that if it was passable when set, then I would have no problem with it. Your 4 ct Paraiba is a great example. Now I'll go back to my finicky little corner of no bowties or extinction, no windows and no black goobers!

 

[JewelFreak]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Can I come too, Minou? I can happily accept a number of types of inclusions if the color knocks me over, but the others, (NOT LIKE button here).

Gajl, TL's point is worth thinking about. Where is the lab report from? Have you dealt with this store before? Could be just as they state but for whatever arm & leg this stone costs, it's not a bad idea to start out a little skeptical, never hurts.

--- Laurie

 

[InToTheMystic]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

Best. Window. Ever.


And on a washed out amethyst, no less.

You know you've spent a bit too much time lurking on the Coloured Stones forum when seeing this picture actually makes you scoot a metre backwards in your chair and shout "No No NO!" at the computer screen.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

I think the picture of this stone is through the pavilion, not looking down through the table. Any stone viewed through the pavilion will look like a huge window.

To answer the original question... yes some stones are more prone to windows. The lower the refractive index, the more prone to a window. So stones such as quartz, sunstone, opal etc it is more critical to get the angles correct. A diamond or CZ, stones with very high refractive index are much less prone to windows, and cut be cut with much less care and still produce a presentable stone.

 

[InToTheMystic]

Re: Windows: on rare stones, are they more forgivable? And..

I think the picture of this stone is through the pavilion, not looking down through the table. Any stone viewed through the pavilion will look like a huge window.

I hadn't noticed that! For some reason I find that really comforting though - that picture was kind of distressing!