Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds???

[Jeff42]

Looking at a Jubilant Crown. It's a F I1 .78ct. I put in the specs and said I shouldn't consider buying because the Crown Angle was too low and could result in chipping. Not sure if the HCA is meant to be used on diamonds like this with a small table and extra facets so I'm looking to all of you for advice! Here are the specs:

Depth: 63.5%
Table: 44%
Crown Height: 14.7%
Pavilion Depth: 43.3%
Girdle :Thick to V. Thick
Cutlet: None

Getting an incredible price on the ring but not sure it's worth it even at such a low cost.

Thanks in advance!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

We need all the specs including diameter and preferably crown and pavilion angles. The thick girdle is not good and I would be wary of I1 if it is for an engagement ring. What kind of lab report is it?

 

[Jeff42]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

Lab report is from EGL USA...Report was scanned and emailed to me so it's a little difficult to see some of the numbers...I'm waiting on the angle numbers to get emailed to me..When I receive that I will post it on here. Sorry for delay..l'm a newbie with all this stuff so the help is greatly appreciated. I'm on a budget so I know I'm not going to receive the best ring out there but I do want one that will be beautiful.
The measurements it says are: 5.79-5.75x3.67mm

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

Okay, well EGL is known to be soft on grading and the color could be 2-4 grades lower than stated. If they are saying I1, then it is probably I1 or I2. A .75 diamond is usually around 5.8mm and a .78 should be closer to 5.9mm. The thick girdle is hiding weight and it is a little deep as well. I am interested in the angles, but I think you can find a better stone.

What is your budget?

 

[Jeff42]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

I'll post the angles when I receive them tomorrow. Budget is between 1200-1500 but that is the type of cut I want. My girlfriend likes the higher faceted rings (wouldn't be my first choice of style but if thats what she wants, that's what shes going to get). So I already have a jeweler I'm working with just need advice on some particular rings.

 

[denverappraiser]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

No, the HCA applies only to modern round brilliant cut diamonds.

 

[JulieN]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

Thick girdle will help with chip risk.

 

[chrono]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

DS,
I have not heard of EGL USA being as far as 4 grades off. If anything, they've improved greatly over the years and are either spot on or at least only 1 grade off. Where are you getting the info that EGL USA is that far off base? EGL others, possibly but it is doubtful for EGL USA.

 

[JulieN]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

The girdle is really quite ridiculously thick.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

DS,
I have not heard of EGL USA being as far as 4 grades off. If anything, they've improved greatly over the years and are either spot on or at least only 1 grade off. Where are you getting the info that EGL USA is that far off base? EGL others, possibly but it is doubtful for EGL USA.

Chrono, I can't locate the threads easily, but there have been quite a few on here that have documented the disparity in the grading. But we have seen 2-4 grades off on color. Two may be average. One experiment was done by someone in the trade who sent a stone to multiple labs for grading.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

The girdle is really quite ridiculously thick.

That's what I was thinking and feel like he surely can find a better stone of this type cut. It would be good to know more about the I1 inclusions, too.

 

[chrono]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

DS,
They were all EGL USA stones? And how many were sent? Is the below the link? That is a 2004 study and with only 14 stones which is a small sample. Not only that, they were from various EGL labs, which all except EGL USA grades terribly off.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-this-article-misleading.177109/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-this-article-misleading.177109/[/URL]
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-it-really-true-gia-ags-compared-to-egl.159873/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-it-really-true-gia-ags-compared-to-egl.159873/[/URL]

 

[denverappraiser]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

Chrono,

I agree that the 2004 PS study has some significant flaws in coming to their conclusion but for an individual shopper looking to buy one stone, the issue is reliability rather than trying to make any sort of conversion chart. The distribution curve of how stones compare between EGLUSA and GIA clearly contains some that are drastically different. It doesn't much matter if 50% are within a grade, 50% are dead on or only 5% are wildly different. The question is one of how to evaluate a particular stone based purely on the lab report. It might be dead on, it might be 4 grades off. All the shopper has is the report. As long as the '4 grade off' category is statistically significant, it's a problem for shoppers. If the definition of 'right' is what GIA is likely to say if a stone were to be submitted to them, the obviously prudent thing is to go with GIA graded stones. Even that doesn't come with a guarantee because it could get a different grade if submitted again but it's clearly the way to maximize that standard. I don't recall ever seeing a GIA stone that has been resubmitted come back with a grade more than 1 grade different in a particular category unless damage or repairs have occurred or the very high clarities (F-VVS1 is 2 grades after all).

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

As long as the '4 grade off' category is statistically significant

Because it happened one time or three (was it even EGL USA?) does not necessarily make it statistically significant you would need much larger sample sizes. With a larger sample size this could be considered an outlier and discarded or it could be significant we just don't know. But given the dozens of example over the years in this forum I tend to think it is an outlier especially if it was EGL USA.

It is not reasonable or good advice to claim the norm will be 4 grades off. It may be accurate to say the norm or average is 2 grades off but it could be as much as 4 in some cases.

Since the OP made no mention of price the paper that comes with it is irrelevant. I would say OP though you better have studied it carefully under different lighting conditions to make sure its eye clean enough for the wearer's standards and get a good return policy. An I1 from EGL seems very unlikely to be eye clean.

Jubilant crown is a branded diamond cut to specific proportions its highly unlikely it has craftsmanship issues like a weak girdle as that would make the whole design a colossal failure. What it does have though is a flat top crown (14.3% crown height) with lots of facets.
If the wearer likes this type of cut I see no problems with it, OP perhaps bring along an appraiser and have them check out the diamond or buy with a return policy and have the girdle checked by an independent appraiser.

And not one single person here has said that the norm would be 4 grades off. EGL is unreliable and unless one plans to also send the stone to GIA or to someone trustworthy like Neil, they have a good possibility of paying for a stone that is not accurately graded.

Gallileo, are you in the trade?

 

[chrono]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

I've also seen a diamond with GIA papers where it was checked by a PS appraiser to be 2 colour grades downwards, with the owner (PS poster) getting all in a tizzy at the news. Is this the norm? Certainly not and is likely to be an outlier stone. This is why the sample size matters. Again, it matters 100% if it is EGL USA or EGL Israel, Belgium, whatever else.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

I haven't stated my opinion on what I deem is statistically significant, so you wouldn't know what my opinion is. If you think EGL grading is reliable, then why are the prices so much lower? You can almost figure out the GIA grade by looking up comparable pricing. That certainly isn't the most accurate method, but I think in most cases, you get what you pay for.

All I know is that I found PS when I was looking for a well cut, high quality diamond and I believe we owe it to people who come here seeking information to steer them to reliably graded stones. There are no politics other than many of us agree on that.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

I've also seen a diamond with GIA papers where it was checked by a PS appraiser to be 2 colour grades downwards, with the owner (PS poster) getting all in a tizzy at the news. Is this the norm? Certainly not and is likely to be an outlier stone. This is why the sample size matters. Again, it matters 100% if it is EGL USA or EGL Israel, Belgium, whatever else.

I clearly have seen this on one occasion with AGS, but not GIA. Whose stone was that?

 

[chrono]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

DS,
It was a friend of mine, who used to post here. Out of respect to her, I will not out her PS handle. I hope you'll understand.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

Oh sure, I understand. I just remember the one with AGS grading where the NY appraiser said 2 grades lower but then the stone was sent to David Atlas and he said one grade lower which is within the acceptable difference of opinion.

 

[ame]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

I have a Star129, and that is one cut that WILL work on the HCA, and it does apply to as that is an ideal cut prior to the extra faceting.

 

[chrono]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

I'm going to go off tangent a bit here too; how often is AGS off, even by 1 colour grade, compared to GIA or a top notch appraiser's evaluation? Does anyone know?

 

[denverappraiser]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

I've also seen a diamond with GIA papers where it was checked by a PS appraiser to be 2 colour grades downwards, with the owner (PS poster) getting all in a tizzy at the news. Is this the norm? Certainly not and is likely to be an outlier stone. This is why the sample size matters. Again, it matters 100% if it is EGL USA or EGL Israel, Belgium, whatever else.

As mentioned above, the question isn't what's the norm, it's what's reasonably likely and what's statistically significant. Could a PS appraiser be 2 grades (or 4) different from GIA? Absolutely, and in the case of the 2 grades I would even suggest that the likelihood is statically significant. Usually the issue is with the appraiser but it could be GIA and it could be a combination of both. It's even possible that a stone sent to GIA will be 2 grades off from a previous evaluation by GIA although I don't recall ever seeing it. Single grade variations in this situation are fairly common by the way.

EGLUSA and EGL International are not the same company, despite the similarity of their names. I agree that it's important to correctly identify what lab is being discussed but yes, I personally have seen stones graded by EGLUSA where I disagree with the color conclusion by 4 grades. I have even submitted such stones to GIA where THEY have shown results 4 grades different. I've not done a study on this and the information is proprietary with my clients in any case so you'll just have to take my word for it that the occurrence is non-zero. It's up to the shopper to decide if it's statistically relevant. They are choosing a lab to rely on to make a shopping decision. If they want to choose EGLUSA (or anyone else for that matter), they are certainly welcome to do so.

Assume as an example, a stone with a document from EGLUSA reporting H color. You want to convert to GIA grading to comparison shop and to decide if it's a bargain. This is a common concern that comes up here and elsewhere on a near daily basis. How would you suggest this be done? Subtract 2 grades and shop it against J's? Why? Might it be an I? H? K? G? Without making this conversion, how can you possibly assess it or compare it against other stones graded elsewhere?

 

[denverappraiser]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

I'm going to go off tangent a bit here too; how often is AGS off, even by 1 colour grade, compared to GIA or a top notch appraiser's evaluation? Does anyone know?

AGS has a reputation for being slightly different (lower) in the G-H-I grades but occasionally it goes the other direction. I don't recall seeing one over 2 grades but it's common for dealers to jump back and forth between AGS and GIA looking for G/H differences, especially if there's not otherwise a problem with the difference is the cut grade.

 

[chrono]

Re: Will Holloway Cut Advisor work on high faceted diamonds?

My memory might be faulty but was there any occurance where either the colour or clarity of an EGL USA diamond coming back as 1 grade higher by GIA but the other category was 1 grade lower? I guess since it is one up and one down, it's fine.