Why is everything so overpriced or horrible selection?

[goldstein]

I'm trying to find a yellow sapphire for a reasonable wholesale price.

Everything I feel is either way overpriced, poor quality or treated.

I'm looking for something above 2 carats, unheated and untreated, decent good cutting and good color with good color saturation. IF-VVS1 clarity (I know that's a diamond term but sellers seem to use it.)

I checked out Natural Sapphire Company but their selection is not only way overpriced in my humble opinion but due to their photo shopping over pictures - I rather not do any business with them. I find it very troubling that they are overpricing their stones by as much over $1,000 but are photo shopping as well. If they want to charge you a premium; than they should at least offer you complete honesty and accuracy and trustworthiness for paying more.

But anyway - what are some good sellers?

I can't find hardly any for a decent price for the quality of the stone and for what I'm looking for.

I've went to all the typical sellers mentioned here.

Mastercutgems, wildfish gems.

I even checked MineralMiners - nothing!

I can't find anything which is 2 carat, unheated and untreated, IF-VVS clarity, decent lemon-yellow color and decent good cutting. Cutting doesn't have to be exactly the best of the best but it should be decent and fairy good and acceptable.

Is it the holiday seasons? Maybe that's why?

Should I perhaps wait after the holidays?

What is going on? I can't find ANYTHING without feeling like I'm overpaying. All other wholesalers seem to be for jewelers only as well and they will only sell to those in the trade and will not disclose pricing upfront.

I find it unethical that you have a closed market of not selling to consumers and only selling to retail jewelers or those in the trade in order to keep prices higher and help jewelers make profit.

I find that very unethical in the gem trade.

What do I do? My budget is no more than $3600 with all taxes and also getting it set into 18K gold jewelry.

PS. This what it says on palagems.com for pricing - "Contact your local jeweler, who can price and order this item.
You can then view it in your local jewelry store."

What a colluded and manipulated market for consumers!

 

[pokerface]

Here you go: http://www.thegemtrader.com/Dec14YSappPage.htm

 

[Marlow]

Same idea!!!

Or this vendor

http://www.johnjbradshaw.com/index.php?page=product_list&category_id=10318

i love the 1,45 ct cushion

 

[goldstein]

Here you go: http://www.thegemtrader.com/Dec14YSappPage.htm

Thanks but I don't feel the color is that great. It's a low price though for a 2.22 carat yellow.

I also see what looks like an inclusion on the face of the stone near the center. http://www.thegemtrader.com/Dec14YSappPage.htm

 

[goldstein]

Same idea!!!

Or this vendor

http://www.johnjbradshaw.com/index.php?page=product_list&category_id=10318

i love the 1,45 ct cushion

Thanks but they are all heated it seems. I would like one which is unheated. And for even unheated stones in comparison they seem a bit more expensive some of them stones.

 

[Marlow]

Yes, there is a higher demand in yellow sapphire at this time....

So not easy to find a nice 2+ ct unheated....

 

[goldstein]

Hmmm... I see.

 

[goldstein]

Is there a way I can pretend to be a jeweler; so I can buy at a jeweler price?

Let's turn their own dirty game against them!

 

[InToTheMystic]

Gemfix has a decent range of unheated yellow sapphires in larger sizes. They tend to be the softer coloured ones, but they look quite nice. I don't think the prices on them are unreasonable http://www.gemfix.com/sapphire_yellow_orange.html

 

[goldstein]

They only decent prices I can seem to find are on gemstoneuniverse.com - however not for the cut of the stones which are cut very poorly and are heavily windowed stones.

 

[goldstein]

Gemfix has a decent range of unheated yellow sapphires in larger sizes. They tend to be the softer coloured ones, but they look quite nice. I don't think the prices on them are unreasonable http://www.gemfix.com/sapphire_yellow_orange.html

I've checked them out as well. Didn't find anything that appealed to me.

Their cutting for most stones is excellent, have a decent selection of unheated 2+ carat stones but I find the color in their unheated stones to not be very saturated and too light for even other comparable unheated stones.

 

[Marlow]

It is no dirty game.

Dealing with gems is not easy - I collect since 1978 - I am neither rich nor stupid. I have no interest in dealing with gems and I know why...

We need each other - I agree that some are overpriced but if you want to buy very quickly a fair priced and high quality stone it will be a challenge.

 

[deorwine]

I get the impression that getting the saturated color you want, unheated, is very rare, and so you'll have to pay for that. You'll notice that Gemfix (for example) has a large selection of saturated yellow sapphires that... are heated, and a much much smaller selection of less saturated ones that aren't. So if you want saturation, you'll have to deal with there not being much stock at that price because it'll get snapped up quickly, and it'll be more expensive because people want that. It's a basic law of supply and demand. I'm not sure why you're up in arms about it.

I think your best bet is to contact some cutters (Gene, Gary, etc.) and ask them to look out for you at the Tuscon Gem Show which is at the end of January. I don't know which cutters are going -- can anyone who is more in the loop than I answer that? -- but this is a big show where they tend to stock up on rough and precut gems. (Of course, in the last several years they've been reporting back things like "Prices are going up and no good deals to be had," so you run that risk too.)

 

[PrecisionGem]

I think what you are looking for is going to be around $1000 per ct wholesale. A normal retail markup would be 2x that. It seems that people get upset paying retail for gemstones, yet I how many people buy shoes at true wholesale prices? Or really much of anything else? I'm sure you shop at your local supermarket and pay retail prices for your food which is maybe $200 or more per week = $10,400 per year. It sure would be nice to buy groceries at Wegman's cost wouldn't it!

For a cutter to buy a stone and recut, we would most likely be looking at around a 3 ct stone, so our cost in Tucson might be around $3000 or so. There is time to hunt the stone down, and then cutting time involved, and the cost to send it out for a cert. This makes the budget with a setting pretty difficult.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Something like 2% of the world's sapphires are unheated. Pure color with minimal or no modifiers is rare. That and the size combined already mean a premium. It's not exactly a racket, nice rare gems cost money. PSers know all too well, budget usually means a compromise somewhere needs to be reached. Perhaps you need to reach a more realistic end point and find the best color in an unheated sapphire you can at a smaller size.

 

[goldstein]

I'm not sure why you're up in arms about it.

Thanks for the advice. Your suggestions sound like a plan to find the right stone for me.

The thing is that say you pay $5,000 dollars for a gemstone from someone in the gemstone trade...

What happens when you go to sell the same stone to the same people in the trade?

They don't even want to pay wholesale even if it's condition is brand new, mint and never set in jewelry!

I'm not talking about getting all your money back. I'm talking about being able to sell it to the same sharks for a fair price who would never sell you something for the same price or comparable prices from their wholesale supplier; that they have audacity to offer you.

I find that unethical, greedy and downright market manipulation. If you buy gold bullion. You pay almost melt prices with very slight markups. AND you can also sell at melt prices without a problem or hassle.

But Jewelry and gemstones? I can't say the same unless you are in the trade.

 

[goldstein]

Yet how many people buy shoes at true wholesale prices? Or really much of anything else? I'm sure you shop at your local supermarket and pay retail prices for your food which is maybe $200 or more per week = $10,400 per year. It sure would be nice to buy groceries at Wegman's cost wouldn't it!

Shoes are a disposable item and not anywhere near as expensive or as an emotional purchase as a pricey rare gemstone.

Grocery stores buy at bulk - so that is fair and not collusion.

But what is NOT fair is when gemstone suppliers will only sell single and expensive gemstone one by one and refuse to sell it to you unless you have someone in their own little cartel called a "Jeweler" .... Buys it from them and than sells it to you for double.

What has that "Jeweler" brought in any value? NOTHING!

Retail Jewelers are the worst parasites in my humble opinion. Grocery stores are in no way comparable to them as they buy in bulk, have to stock thousands of different items to fit your needs, make sure the food is preserved if perishable and give you easy convenience of buying what you need.

I can't say the same for the vast majority of Jewelers. I also don't believe that this statement always holds true "You get what you pay for..." because MANY times "You DO NOT get what you pay for..." - Either for the good or the bad in both statements.

 

[goldstein]

For a cutter to buy a stone and recut, we would most likely be looking at around a 3 ct stone, so our cost in Tucson might be around $3000 or so. There is time to hunt the stone down, and then cutting time involved, and the cost to send it out for a cert. This makes the budget with a setting pretty difficult.

I could buy the stone first - even if it eats into my budget for the setting and than later have it set.

I have other bills to pay and don't want to dip into my life savings. So I can't increase my budget.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I think what you are maybe are missing is the much of the retail stone business is on memo. Jewelers can't carry a large inventory of stones, it's too expensive. So when you go back to the store you bought your stone from, they really can't afford to buy it back, even at a wholesale price. So they will offer you a very low price. Normally when you go to your local jeweler looking for a stone, he will have you come back in a few days. What he then does is have a number of stones sent to him on memo to show you. He only pays for the stone once you buy it, the others are sent back. Or what they have in stock, some of it may be on memo. When I lived in Buffalo, I had 3 or 4 stores that I would leave anywhere from 6 to 20 stones with on memo. These would would display or show to customers, and once sold, I would get paid.
It's a strange business, but we are dealing with items that often take a long time to sell, and cost quite a bit, so it's different than more common consumer goods. The store has overhead, and the owner also needs to make some profit.

 

[Marlow]

Gems are not tomatos or gold.

A small difference in the color or clarity and the price goes up and down...

That is why they are no investment and you should buy them if you really want them... otherwise stay away.

The vendors don't play a dirty game and they are no sharks. Many I know work extremely hard. Again - we need each other.

And ....nobody needs gems....or a Ferrari or a bottle Chateau Latour...

 

[PrecisionGem]

Yet how many people buy shoes at true wholesale prices? Or really much of anything else? I'm sure you shop at your local supermarket and pay retail prices for your food which is maybe $200 or more per week = $10,400 per year. It sure would be nice to buy groceries at Wegman's cost wouldn't it!

Shoes are a disposable item and not anywhere near as expensive or as an emotional purchase as a pricey rare gemstone.

/quote]

My wife's boots cost more than most stones I sell, and she likes them a lot more than my stones! Wish I had an insiders path to Steve Madden boots....

 

[kenny]

Is there a way I can pretend to be a jeweler; so I can buy at a jeweler price?

Let's turn their own dirty game against them!

Nice.

Yeah, retail jewelers making a living are playing a dirty game.
How would you feel if someone eliminated your income and called what you do for a living, dirty?

So you never buy retail?
Everything you've ever bought you pretended to be a wholesaler?
Sounds exhausting! Dishonest too, yet your OP wails about poor ethics ... Uhm ...

Enjoy all that cash you'll have squirreled away in your casket for eternity.

 

[Marlow]

Buy a nice citrine or a nice mali garnet - much cheaper.....

 

[goldstein]

Jewelers can't carry a large inventory of stones, it's too expensive. So when you go back to the store you bought your stone from, they really can't afford to buy it back, even at a wholesale price. So they will offer you a very low price. Normally when you go to your local jeweler looking for a stone, he will have you come back in a few days. What he then does is have a number of stones sent to him on memo to show you. He only pays for the stone once you buy it, the others are sent back. Or what they have in stock, some of it may be on memo. When I lived in Buffalo, I had 3 or 4 stores that I would leave anywhere from 6 to 20 stones with on memo. These would would display or show to customers, and once sold, I would get paid.
It's a strange business, but we are dealing with items that often take a long time to sell, and cost quite a bit, so it's different than more common consumer goods. The store has overhead, and the owner also needs to make some profit.

If they can't carry a large inventory of stones - (buying in bulk) - than they did not deserve exclusive access to miners and wholesalers.

"they really can't afford to buy it back, even at a wholesale price. " - I disagree and strongly. That simply is untrue. The mark-ups in Jewelry are also understated at double their cost. They sell upwards of 3 to even 5 times than what they bought it at.

"He only pays for the stone once you buy it" - Exactly my point. They bring nothing in value except being parasites making money out of providing nothing but your able to access gemstones from a supplier whom they can't even buy in bulk from to justify only them getting the discount.

"It's a strange business, but we are dealing with items that often take a long time to sell, and cost quite a bit,"

The prices should be lowered than if they can't meet demand and this is further evidence that most jewelry and gemstones are way overpriced.

"The store has overhead, and the owner also needs to make some profit."

True but they gave nothing of service except being leeches by giving you access and permission to purchase a stone from a supplier. That is pure collusion. It doesn't matter if they need to make a profit - so do con artists.

They ONLY thing I believe Jewelers are entitled to be paid for is setting the gemstones and charging for the labor at a price which will cover overhead coverage, any of their expense related to the setting and also at a price which is reasonable and fair but able to make a profit.

 

[goldstein]

Is there a way I can pretend to be a jeweler; so I can buy at a jeweler price?

Let's turn their own dirty game against them!

Nice.

Yeah, retail jewelers making a living are playing a dirty game.
How would you feel if someone eliminated your income and called what you do for a living, dirty?

So you never buy retail?
Everything you've ever bought you pretended to be a wholesaler?
Sounds exhausting! Dishonest too, yet your OP wails about poor ethics ... Uhm ...

Enjoy all that cash you'll have squirreled away in your casket for eternity.

Con artists would also feel bad too if someone eliminated their income and called what they do for a living as "dirty".

"Everything you've ever bought you pretended to be a wholesaler?" I already explained this point and why jewelers have no right to receive wholesale prices exclusively because they put in no value to receive those rates.

"So you never buy retail?"

Retail in Jewelry is quite different than Walmart, Sears, JC Penny, Macys, Nordstorm, Bloomindales etc...

And yes, I know those retails departments also have a jewelry department but I'm not referencing the Jewelry side of their business but many other sources of revenue.

Comparing Jewelers to other Retailers who sell other goods is not a comparison and a cheap shot from you.

"Enjoy all that cash you'll have squirreled away in your casket for eternity" Now, you are just resorting to personal insults.

 

[pokerface]

The prices should be lowered than if they can't meet demand .

I'm pretty sure you don't understand the concept of supply and demand.

If people out there are snatching up the 2+ carat untreated yellow sapphires at a price you are unwilling to pay, in no way does this mean the gems are overpriced or that prices should be lowered. It means the opposite. It may not be worth it to you to pay $2000/ct for such a stone. That does not mean stones in that price range are overpriced.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Perhaps you would have better luck going to the mines yourself, digging the stone out of the mud, and learning the lapidary and goldsmith trade. If there is time you can spend a few years becoming a graduate gemologist to ensure the stone is unheated.

Why did you even come here? Surely it was just to ruffle feathers and not a genuine desire for advice?

 

[goldstein]

The prices should be lowered than if they can't meet demand .

I'm pretty sure you don't understand the concept of supply and demand.

If people out there are snatching up the 2+ carat untreated yellow sapphires at a price you are unwilling to pay, in no way does this mean the gems are overpriced or that prices should be lowered. It means the opposite. It may not be worth it to you to pay $2000/ct for such a stone. That does not mean stones in the price range are overpriced.

I'm pretty sure you are wrong.

He himself has said that moving inventory takes quite a long time to sell. Therefore the prices are too high.

"If people out there are snatching up the 2+ carat untreated yellow sapphires at a price you are unwilling to pay, in no way does this mean the gems are overpriced or that prices should be lowered. "

This premise is completely wrong. If it was true; than how come you have any other commodity or investment bought at a certain price - only to become much cheaper? Despite many suckers buying?

Gold is one example. It went from $2,000 highs - down to $1200. Many people bought Gold at $2,000 an ounce.

By you philosophy; gold should not have been overpriced... But it was!

 

[goldstein]

Perhaps you would have better luck going to the mines yourself, digging the stone out of the mud, and learning the lapidary and goldsmith trade. If there is time you can spend a few years becoming a graduate gemologist to ensure the stone is unheated.

Why did you even come here? Surely it was just to ruffle feathers and not a genuine desire for advice?

Perhaps, you should tell that to the parasitical scumbag Jewelers who you hold so dearly.

Why did you even care about my personal opinions? Surely it was just because you have a bias and favor Jewelers.

 

[goldstein]

From Gingercurles "Hi Goldstein,

While I do not agree with your sentiments about price, I do feel that I can see your point about the seeming lack of quality material. When I first started browsing PS, I was about 16 years old. Then, I did not have really any money to spend on colored stones and what I was able to afford was small, not top-color, and not precision cut. Although I wasn't able to purchase top quality stones at that time, a little under ten years ago, I distinctly remember a great deal of the following scenarios from that time:
-far more frequent drops being made by vendors
-drops with more material
-vendors offering larger stones
-vendors offering stones with great color, cut, and clarity
-more posts on PS about members acquiring stones that were large, great color, cut, and clarity

Now I feel that the following scenarios are more common:
-far fewer drops being made by vendors
-material that is available in larger sizes is not material that is not particularly popular or in high demand
-stones that are being offered frequently leave something to be desired (the cut will be great, for example, but the clarity or the color of the stone isn't top notch)

I will admit that I feel that there is currently a scarcity of high quality, especially in comparison to when I was first getting into colored stones and PS. I realize that some of this scarcity in certain cases, like with Mahenge spinel, is due to the fact that certain mines for certain material are just not producing stones. Part of me is curious to know what other factors are at play. I would love to get the perspectives and opinions of other PS members and our resident custom cutters!"

I think your statements are a lot less biased propaganda from Jewelers than other posters. I agree with pretty much everything you said and think you gave a excellent analysis as well.