Why haven’t lab created gems taken off like lab created diamonds?

[oncrutchesrightnow]

Some people may find the below article interesting. Mostly about diamonds but also mentions other gemstones. (FWIW I disagree with the opinion but would still highly recommend the vendor. Best service.)

The Party's Over

Well, it was good while it lasted, or was it? The LGD party left a heap of collateral damage in its wake, to the consumer who was fed a promise that didn’t pan out—and to the trade who should have seen it coming. I first sounded the warning alarm about the dangers of LGD back in 2016, at a time...

www.leibish.com

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

Some people may find the below article interesting. Mostly about diamonds but also mentions other gemstones. (FWIW I disagree with the opinion but would still highly recommend the vendor. Best service.)

The Party's Over

Well, it was good while it lasted, or was it? The LGD party left a heap of collateral damage in its wake, to the consumer who was fed a promise that didn’t pan out—and to the trade who should have seen it coming. I first sounded the warning alarm about the dangers of LGD back in 2016, at a time...

www.leibish.com

There has been a rash of mined diamonds are back in vogue! They are rare, scout's promise! Buy mined diamonds! articles pushed by the industry with the biggest stakes.
The only solution is the cratering of natural diamond prices to compete. This has already begun.

Sales are saying that lab diamonds are growing as the choice for many consumers.
DeBeers is also contending with collapsing diamond prices and sock issues.



From a London based mag:

Mined Diamond Industry Faces Turmoil as Lab-Grown Gems Capture Market | OilPrice.com

The mined diamond industry is experiencing a significant downturn in profits and market demand due to the rapid rise of lab-grown diamonds, which are increasingly preferred for their affordability and ethical production.

oilprice.com

While Mined Diamond Sales Decline, The Future Of Lab Grown Diamonds Is Much More Than Jewelry

Bain & Co released its latest Global Diamond Report 2019 finding sales are falling throughout the mined-diamond supply chain. By contrast, sales of lab-grown diamonds are up 15%-20%. Trends in mined diamonds and prospects for lab-grown diamonds are explored.

www.forbes.com

 

[PrecisionGem]

Since Gary couldn't produce an answer on how much gem quality diamonds are produced each, I asked Copilot AI. The answer was about 7.1 million carats of cut stones. Now to mean 7.1 million of anything doesn't sound particularly rare.

According to one of the GIA articles he supplied as proof that there are a lot more sapphire than diamonds, the article stated the amount of Kashmir sapphire rough over a 5 year period. I assumed 40% recovery and calculated that to be 8400 carats of cut sapphire.
Blue Sapphire from Sri Lanka about 150,000 ct. per year.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

There has been a rash of mined diamonds are back in vogue! They are rare, scout's promise! Buy mined diamonds! articles pushed by the industry with the biggest stakes.
The only solution is the cratering of natural diamond prices to compete. This has already begun.

Sales are saying that lab diamonds are growing as the choice for many consumers.
DeBeers is also contending with collapsing diamond prices and sock issues.



From a London based mag:

Mined Diamond Industry Faces Turmoil as Lab-Grown Gems Capture Market | OilPrice.com

The mined diamond industry is experiencing a significant downturn in profits and market demand due to the rapid rise of lab-grown diamonds, which are increasingly preferred for their affordability and ethical production.

oilprice.com

While Mined Diamond Sales Decline, The Future Of Lab Grown Diamonds Is Much More Than Jewelry

Bain & Co released its latest Global Diamond Report 2019 finding sales are falling throughout the mined-diamond supply chain. By contrast, sales of lab-grown diamonds are up 15%-20%. Trends in mined diamonds and prospects for lab-grown diamonds are explored.

www.forbes.com

Oops.
*stock issues, as in stock value falling.
I have no idea what kind of socks they wear

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Hi,

Let me clarify what I meant about Mr. Rappaport. This was brought up by a diamond dealer on the diamond forum. Mr Rappaport refused to list the lowered diamond prices on the Rap report because dealers told him they would cancel their subscription to the Rap Report. I guess Mr. Rappaport thought this was the kiss of death because his report did not show lowered diamond prices as it should have if you want to think its accurate. Nor does PS graphs reflect lower prices. Check the diamond forum.

In another discussion Diamond dealers expressed their desire for DeBeers to do something- withhold diamonds from the market so prices hold--(I think a guy named Garry was in on that discussion. Lets manipulate the market.

I know this sounds silly but some years chickens are in over supply and the price falls. Beef the same. Sometimes these companies try to manipulate the market and they are fined and sanctioned. This principle of business holds true for most. Just not diamonds.

I too will back away. I like diamonds but Lab diamonds may be a better value. Your diamond consumer is the older generation, IMO. As one of my Drs told me. A college Ed costs as much as a house. This morning figures were given for Duke, Brown, One in Penn at a cost of 90.000.00 per year. The cost of an Education in the USA is probably much worse than diamond prices. Save, Save Save.

Annette

Martin had death threats if he lowered the Rap Report. But it doesn't matter much as we are all used to the system.
Even LGD dealers are using it to compete with smaller stones listed in the low -90% and larger stones listed as -99.5%.
During covid and late last year the Indian gov asked De Beers AND all the other big miners to hold back deliveries. Most of the miners just reduced mining activity, reduced the number of shifts etc - leaving the diamonds in the ground.
Regarding LGD being better value - the larger sizes still have a very long way to fall in price As mentioned above, they are still trading Off natural prices. But 1, 2 and 3ct wholesale prices are almost exactly the same now for F VS1 (the median color and clarity today).

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Anyone know if lab melee is cheaper?

I haven’t found lab melee, let alone cheap lab melee.

 

[Karl_K]

Anyone know if lab melee is cheaper?

I haven’t found lab melee, let alone cheap lab melee.

The majority of the cost of producing melee is the cutting labor and handling which is nearly the same for both types.
The rough is a small fraction of the cost.
For a 1ct g\vs mined stone bought online the majority of your money goes to the mining company.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

The majority of the cost of producing melee is the cutting labor and handling which is nearly the same for both types.
The rough is a small fraction of the cost.
For a 1ct g\vs mined stone bought online the majority of your money goes to the mining company.

Thanks so much Karl!!!!

I think I’ve asked this before and I keep hoping for a different answer but it looks like this is one thing that’s not really changing anytime soon!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Thanks so much Karl!!!!

I think I’ve asked this before and I keep hoping for a different answer but it looks like this is one thing that’s not really changing anytime soon!

For 0.03ct the wholesale price difference is 5 times for G VS - however most retailers selling lab are being opportunistic. A fair price would be around $200 per carat.

At 1/4 and 1/3rd carat lab costs 50% more at wholesale.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

For 0.03ct the wholesale price difference is 5 times for G VS - however most retailers selling lab are being opportunistic. A fair price would be around $200 per carat.

At 1/4 and 1/3rd carat lab costs 50% more at wholesale.

Gary do you mean lab melee actually costs more at the 1/4 carat size???

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Gary do you mean lab melee actually costs more at the 1/4 carat size???

Yes, it should not and eventually will not as it costs more, as Karl says, to cut 25 one point diamonds then one 0.25ct stone.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi.

I know I said I would back away, but, I did do my reading (a little on DeBeers) and think that Garry, through his prism of looking at diamonds has considered the DeBeers vs US problem to be about Industrial diamonds. This case involved the US Gov't accusing GE and DEBEERs of colluding to price fix industrial diamonds. It was a 10 yr case settled in 2004.

However DeBeers was banned 50 yrs before this case. The reason was that the US Gov't designated DeBeers as Being a CARTEL. This is and was against anti trust and monopoly laws. The Gov't proclaimed that they controlled supply and demand and thus controlled prices. The Gov't called this price fixing and did not allow DeBeers in the country.

So you ask, how did all those diamonds get into the country? Head Office in London was allowed to deal with American sellers. The London office was the way the diamonds entered the US legally. DeBeers itself could not do anything.

DeBeers wanted so badly to get back to the US market, they pleaded guilty in 2004 and negotiated their way back in. But we still see vestiges of the old practices. especially when prices fall.

Annette
Remember, for 50yr DeBeers was a CARTEL

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Hi.

I know I said I would back away, but, I did do my reading (a little on DeBeers) and think that Garry, through his prism of looking at diamonds has considered the DeBeers vs US problem to be about Industrial diamonds. This case involved the US Gov't accusing GE and DEBEERs of colluding to price fix industrial diamonds. It was a 10 yr case settled in 2004.

However DeBeers was banned 50 yrs before this case. The reason was that the US Gov't designated DeBeers as Being a CARTEL. This is and was against anti trust and monopoly laws. The Gov't proclaimed that they controlled supply and demand and thus controlled prices. The Gov't called this price fixing and did not allow DeBeers in the country.

So you ask, how did all those diamonds get into the country? Head Office in London was allowed to deal with American sellers. The London office was the way the diamonds entered the US legally. DeBeers itself could not do anything.

DeBeers wanted so badly to get back to the US market, they pleaded guilty in 2004 and negotiated their way back in. But we still see vestiges of the old practices. especially when prices fall.

Annette
Remember, for 50yr DeBeers was a CARTEL

Sadly, I cannot find the references I used for this section of my book SC.
However, De Beers Industrial diamond division was overly supportive of the war II efforts - to the extent they voluntarily reduced the price of diamonds for the then newly invented diamond grinding wheel. They dropped the price from $0.65ct to $0.35.
The article I can not find has some letters from various governments thanking De Beers for their war effort.
De Beers had apparently made a deal with USA and UK that after the war those govs would not stockpile induatrial diamonds. The US breached the deal so De Beers decided to build its own stockpiles and thats when the US gov first (of 2 times) charged them with monoplistic business practices.
But I had a poke around and found these on google books:

Industrial Diamond

www.google.com.au

And

South African-American Survey

www.google.com.au

 

[Karl_K]

That De Beers manipulated the diamond market using all means both legal and not, both moral and not for decades can not be disputed.
Anything else is simply revisionist history.
Are they better today, probably but they had no choice.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

That De Beers manipulated the diamond market using all means both legal and not, both moral and not for decades can not be disputed.
Anything else is simply revisionist history.
Are they better today, probably but they had no choice.

And name 10 of the top worlds 50 companies that do not Karl, now or ever?
Most of the "manipulation" was far more benign and good for all the players - other miners, all the intermediaries (other than diamond cutters who have always been screwed) and end consumers who own diamonds.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I think most persons on this board like diamonds. It is the justification for high prices that we question. I see it as the cumulative effect of the DeBeers Cartel. A case is settled ad the effects of the settlement may take another 50 yrs to correct itself. DeBeers didn't lower their monopolistic prices in 2004, they continue to raise prices for a product that is not rare. I saw this on PS with trusted vendors who just keep raising prices as if the cartel still existed. Prices have doubled and tripled for a product that is so used to raising prices that , for me, makes me angry. The industry is too used to price protection

Yes, Garry, other companies exploit their positions as well We have Govt to help protect us.. If a young couple wants a diamond ring to celebrate their engagement, thats fine by me. Just don't forfeit your future financial health. Perhaps a lab diamond will do.

Karl. I see you do understand the problem. Next time I question prices, please don't tell me I am being FX. I didn't even get what you meant at first. I will continue to price check.and maybe be FX. I do think its funny.

Heres to those that love their diamonds. Cheers

Annette

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The diamond vs water paradox.

The paradox of value (also known as the diamond–water paradox) is the contradiction that, although water is on the whole more useful, in terms of survival, than diamonds, diamonds command a higher price.......

Paradox of value - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Karl_K]

Karl. I see you do understand the problem. Next time I question prices, please don't tell me I am being FX. I didn't even get what you meant at first. I will continue to price check.and maybe be FX. I do think its funny.



Annette

Since I have no clue what FX means are you sure its something I said?

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,
Karl-- I think you meant the TV show. FX, which is other worldly at times. I had insinuated that I would jump to a conclusion of the removal of the diamond graphs that would mean it was intentionally removed to obscure the falling diamond prices. I THOUGHT YOUR RESPONSE WAS VERY kARL--SO AFTER i THOUGHT i FIGURED OUT WHAT YOU MEaNT, i WAS ABLE TO LAUGH. O'm not re-trypeing this Not shouting or being FX.

Annette

 

[T L]

I guess my biggest fear with lab diamonds is that the prices will come down so much (or maybe they already have), that all diamond rings will be thought of as inexpensive baubles, and not the luxury items they are. Diamonds, in particular, large white diamonds, have prestige, despite the non-rarity of these stones. Now if all of us can wear a J.Lo inspired bauble at a fraction of the price, how special will these rings really be? The labs are getting so good with their technology, that I can see 10+ carat lab grown diamonds becoming easily and affordably available in the near future.

However, I’m glad that natural diamond prices are crashing. While it’s unfortunate that some artisan miners are losing profits, at the same time, diamonds have enjoyed inflated prices for far too long.

So I purchased a three carat emerald cut lab diamond, eye clean, J color, for less than $1k. Will that same stone be $200 in a year? I mean you do need to pay for the energy consuming production and the cutting, at the very least. Also, D color, VVS clarity stones will be easily affordable by most. I went with a warm color because I WANTED my stone to look inferior, so it would be assumed as natural. It’s quite funny. When I was very young, I always thought that large white lab diamonds were a pipe dream since the first ones looked like tiny pebbles. All of a sudden, in the last five years, the technology has exploded. It’s really amazing.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I guess my biggest fear with lab diamonds is that the prices will come down so much (or maybe they already have), that all diamond rings will be thought of as inexpensive baubles, and not the luxury items they are. Diamonds, in particular, large white diamonds, have prestige, despite the non-rarity of these stones. Now if all of us can wear a J.Lo inspired bauble at a fraction of the price, how special will these rings really be? The labs are getting so good with their technology, that I can see 10+ carat lab grown diamonds becoming easily and affordably available in the near future.

However, I’m glad that natural diamond prices are crashing. While it’s unfortunate that some artisan miners are losing profits, at the same time, diamonds have enjoyed inflated prices for far too long.

So I purchased a three carat emerald cut lab diamond, eye clean, J color, for less than $1k. Will that same stone be $200 in a year? I mean you do need to pay for the energy consuming production and the cutting, at the very least. Also, D color, VVS clarity stones will be easily affordable by most. I went with a warm color because I WANTED my stone to look inferior, so it would be assumed as natural. It’s quite funny. When I was very young, I always thought that large white lab diamonds were a pipe dream since the first ones looked like tiny pebbles. All of a sudden, in the last five years, the technology has exploded. It’s really amazing.

The cost of LGD from growers and cutters in India is already below $100 per carat and approaching that for larger stones (which should be cheaper).
Going for a visibly imperfect stone makes sense hahahaha

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I found this CIA article from 1951 that focuses on stopping the USSR getting industrial diamonds. From page 7 there are mentions of the cartel (De Beers companies) and building up a government stockpile.
It is also clear that De Beers was not supplying Russia.
Other things I read (that I can not find) mentioned the De Beers industrial diamond company making deals with the US and UK governments before and during the war that the 'cartel' would do everything they could to support the war war II efforts and in return they had assurances that neither gov would build stockpiles.
So De Beers got a hiding for attempting to stop the US gov from breaching its earlier agreements because of the cold war!
Start from about page 7 - very interesting history!

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000493752.pdf