Why haven’t lab created gems taken off like lab created diamonds?

[PrecisionGem]

Also, there is a talk about how expensive lab created gemstones are. Truth of the matter you can get lab created sapphire and ruby and spinel for a few dollars a carat. Lab created emerald and alexandrite pulled czochralski (real lab alex not cc corundum) for $10 to $20 a carat. These might not be precision cut, but many are cut nicely. Nice enough for the general public. The corundum and spinel are flame fusion and not pulled czochralski which if you want czochralski you pay just a little more for but in the end they are all chemically identical. All are true synthetic corundum and spinel.

The pulled Czochralski material, and hydrothermal is pretty expensive. I don't see how it would be at all possible to sell it cut for $10 or $20 per ct. The rough is in larger pieces that must be saw cut, and a saw cut only cut straight lines, so there is often a lot of waste. I checked my data base and for this material I average 22% yield. At $20 per ct, a cut stone would be sold for less than the rough cost, and you would be paying the customer for the time you spent cutting it.

 

[fredflintstone]

The pulled Czochralski material, and hydrothermal is pretty expensive. I don't see how it would be at all possible to sell it cut for $10 or $20 per ct. The rough is in larger pieces that must be saw cut, and a saw cut only cut straight lines, so there is often a lot of waste. I checked my data base and for this material I average 22% yield. At $20 per ct, a cut stone would be sold for less than the rough cost, and you would be paying the customer for the time you spent cutting it.

They're out there overseas, it is always much cheaper in Thailand. You can go to e bay and find them easily. Americans pay more for everything. I used to buy a few of them.

 

[Avondale]

As far as inclusions go, it sounds like people want inclusions in their lab created stones? But often I find that unless I cut a near flawless natural stone people don't want it if it has inclusions? So clean natural stones, but included lab stones?

More like, people who prefer natural stones consider lab created ones to be very obviously lab created due to how clean they are. I imagine if someone was buying lab created, they'd definitely want a clean stone.

@fredflintstone is quite right here - the people on this board are a rare breed. I love the inclusions in my stones. No one in my social circle shares my fascination with colourful pebbles. This is the only place where I can talk about how one of my sapphires has a tiny veil inclusion on one end and the small part of the stone on one side of that veil fluoresces while the rest of the stone is inert, and people won't look at me like I'm crazy. But I imagine the vast majority of buyers would prefer as clean as possible, if they had the choice.

 

[Karl_K]

I love lab gemstones.
I also love mined gemstones.
I love lab stones because it means I can enjoy beautiful things I otherwise would never get to enjoy at natural prices.
I love mined gemstones because they are all unique.
You could have 2 stones both cut from the same natural rough and both would be unique. That is kewl!
My favorite gemstone is 4 peaks amethyst. It is so unique and quirky and beautiful.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

I think my gripe is why can’t I get a gorgeous natural bright pink sapphire for $200 per carat though? Why hasn’t the price fallen if the lab ones are so prolific?

 

[Neptune]

I've been giving it a lot of thought and conclude that I’m a person who enjoys the journeys and the hunts of buying imperfectly perfect CS.

When finding the right gems for myself, given the complexities of natural stones, (availability, treatment, clarity, tone, saturation, modifier, shiftiness, cut, face up size), many sleepless nights, disappointments, surprises, time, ponderings, and mood swings were involved in the processes. In the end, I feel happy and content with each gem, for now anyway. That brings me joy.

Would buying lab created gems eliminate many headaches for me, maybe? But it won’t be as amusing/rewarding, right?

“Nothing worth having comes easy”?

I’m not sure if I answer your question, Mellow. Maybe one day I would venture out to the “Fabulous Fashion Jewelry” thread and laugh at myself for being such a natural CS nutter, ha.

 

[PrecisionGem]

They're out there overseas, it is always much cheaper in Thailand. You can go to e bay and find them easily. Americans pay more for everything. I used to buy a few of them.

They must be selling flame fusion not pulled material. You can't buy the pulled rough in Thailand cheap enough to cut a finished stone for $10 per ct. even if you had free labor.

 

[PrecisionGem]

I think my gripe is why can’t I get a gorgeous natural bright pink sapphire for $200 per carat though? Why hasn’t the price fallen if the lab ones are so prolific?

Are talking $200 per ct for a natural stone or lab stone? I think the lab are becoming more popular as the price of the natural stones has been going up. The US market is resisting the prices for natural stones that other parts of the world are paying. Many of the dealers I spoke with this year at the Tucson shows said they can sell overseas for higher prices than Americans are willing to pay.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Are talking $200 per ct for a natural stone or lab stone? I think the lab are becoming more popular as the price of the natural stones has been going up. The US market is resisting the prices for natural stones that other parts of the world are paying. Many of the dealers I spoke with this year at the Tucson shows said they can sell overseas for higher prices than Americans are willing to pay.

Natural! Why aren’t their prices falling to compete with the cheaper, cleaner, better coloured lab stones?

Are there two separate markets? Pool of people competing with each other to buy natural and a different set buying lab?

Are the natural sellers artificially keeping prices up?

I do wonder!

 

[PrecisionGem]

Natural! Why aren’t their prices falling to compete with the cheaper, cleaner, better coloured lab stones?

Are there two separate markets? Pool of people competing with each other to buy natural and a different set buying lab?

Are the natural sellers artificially keeping prices up?

I do wonder!

Every natural sapphire that is found and cut, means there is one less to be found. There isn't an endless supply. The costs to mine the stones keeps going up, and the supply chain along the way to the consumer keeps going up, just like everything else you buy.

There was a time when rough gems were a lot less expensive, but with the advent of the internet and smart phones, everyone around the world knows what the selling price is, and their rough prices have gone up. The days of going into Africa and buying rough stones for a few dollars is long gone. Often you can today buy rough from dealers in the USA for less than you would in Arusha Tanzania for the same material. I have seen people buy Tsavorite garnet rough at the Tucson show, to take back to Kenya to sell there at a profit to the Chinese coming to buy rough.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

I have a whole thread about my search for Angie's amazing emerald earrings in a lab version -- the long and short of it is that it's actually not very cost effective to try and do that set of honkers in lab emerald. Prices for lab emerald at high carat weights are actually quite eye-popping; and the pears don't even go that big if you try. The largest I ever found for pears was 16x12mm (and those were priced at $5k for gold and moissanite). Which is short of Angie's look.

All in, it's actually cheaper to do them as low quality emerald studs. JRR Colombian was offering 14 carats for about 4k, I ended up starting with the top studs for about $2k. I'll come back to the project when I have the funds to do the bottoms properly (and honestly, I'll probably do smaller studs than what I have now and save for giant pear bottoms).

those earrings are real beauties

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

last year i finally took in t be tested an old antiquey/ vinatge ring i was hoping (aganist hope) was going to be a man made tourmaline
turned out to be glass
-sigh
i did suspect this so i wasn't surprised
and it was a find, so no money was lost
but i would have loved it to have been a man made gemstone

 

[fredflintstone]

They must be selling flame fusion not pulled material. You can't buy the pulled rough in Thailand cheap enough to cut a finished stone for $10 per ct. even if you had free labor.

They were pulled.

It was a few years ago.

You must remember prices are different for everyone, especially if you have very close relationships with insiders. Not saying you don't but obviously I was buying from different sources and cutting is very inexpensive in Thailand and Sri Lanka.

I think your cut synthetics are beautiful and not overly priced for the American or western marketplace. May you continue success with them.

 

[fredflintstone]

Every natural sapphire that is found and cut, means there is one less to be found. There isn't an endless supply. The costs to mine the stones keeps going up, and the supply chain along the way to the consumer keeps going up, just like everything else you buy.

There was a time when rough gems were a lot less expensive, but with the advent of the internet and smart phones, everyone around the world knows what the selling price is, and their rough prices have gone up. The days of going into Africa and buying rough stones for a few dollars is long gone. Often you can today buy rough from dealers in the USA for less than you would in Arusha Tanzania for the same material. I have seen people buy Tsavorite garnet rough at the Tucson show, to take back to Kenya to sell there at a profit to the Chinese coming to buy rough.

You can write that again!

 

[oncrutchesrightnow]

I think lab created colored stones have taken off. As I stated above, now they are almost 70% of what I cut.

As far as inclusions go, it sounds like people want inclusions in their lab created stones? But often I find that unless I cut a near flawless natural stone people don't want it if it has inclusions? So clean natural stones, but included lab stones?

For me, cutting a natural stone is more interesting than a lab, as with the lab stones, I pretty much know exactly how they will look after cut, and they are certainly less challenging to cut.

Maybe people who buy colored stones are more likely to be “rock collectors” than jewelry collectors? Rock collectors who care about that thing on that inclusion glowing like whatever the other poster said. (Laughing in a good way). Whereas people who buy lab colored gems are more about collecting jewelry; and a higher proportion of diamond owners are jewelry collectors, not rock collectors. So that could explain why lab colored stones don’t affect the price of natural colored stones as much as lab diamonds affect the price of earth diamonds— proportionally more colored gem fans care about the rock than the look, while proportionally more diamond fans care more about the look than the rock. The “people actually cared about beauty all along” phenomenon that got lost in the “people were supposed to care about exclusivity” mistake. OR we have been trained to want perfect diamonds so labs are actually better than earth grown. OR earth grown diamonds are waaaay less rare than we were led to believe. Maybe earth grown diamond prices will go back up once the real supply numbers shrink and no new diamond mines open up. Or all of the above…

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Every natural sapphire that is found and cut, means there is one less to be found. There isn't an endless supply. The costs to mine the stones keeps going up, and the supply chain along the way to the consumer keeps going up, just like everything else you buy.
There was a time when rough gems were a lot less expensive, but with the advent of the internet and smart phones, everyone around the world knows what the selling price is, and their rough prices have gone up. The days of going into Africa and buying rough stones for a few dollars is long gone. Often you can today buy rough from dealers in the USA for less than you would in Arusha Tanzania for the same material. I have seen people buy Tsavorite garnet rough at the Tucson show, to take back to Kenya to sell there at a profit to the Chinese coming to buy rough.

A comparison between diamonds and almost all colored gems:
There has yet to be any real geological science applied to the search for most colored gems - that are almost all formed fairly close to the earths surface. They are discovered by random surface finds.
The science applied to finding diamonds, which actually grow and form from 100 to +500 miles below the earths surface and by chance a few dozen deep seated volcanic eruptions have bought those we have found to the surface.
Because diamonds are the most popular gem by money spent, more is spent prospecting to find them.
If the same effort and money was put into finding sapphires, which are way more plentiful in quantity and sizes than diamonds, they would be far more abundant than they already are.

 

[Adam95]

The best argument I've heard so far, from some YouTuber or TikToker I think, was that if you created a machine that could paint identical Mona Lisas, at very little cost, would any of the copies have value? Lab grown diamonds and gemstones are very cool but they lack the rarity and scarcity that makes their natural counterparts valuable.

 

[Redwoods-hiker-girl]

you know thats kind of why we never see nice settings for amathyst in my country
im talking natural but its a cheap stone and it gets set into really ugly silver settings and is then sold cheaply and it looks it (i have nothing aganist silver)

That's too bad. Amethyst can be such a pretty gem, too.

 

[Dreamer_D]

The best argument I've heard so far, from some YouTuber or TikToker I think, was that if you created a machine that could paint identical Mona Lisas, at very little cost, would any of the copies have value? Lab grown diamonds and gemstones are very cool but they lack the rarity and scarcity that makes their natural counterparts valuable.

I think prints and reproductions of the Mona Lisa likely generate billions of dollars each year. So yes. There is tremendous value is reproductions!

 

[T L]

The best argument I've heard so far, from some YouTuber or TikToker I think, was that if you created a machine that could paint identical Mona Lisas, at very little cost, would any of the copies have value? Lab grown diamonds and gemstones are very cool but they lack the rarity and scarcity that makes their natural counterparts valuable.

Natural white diamonds are not scarce. You can find at least a one carat white diamond in just about every jewelry store in the world. That’s the problem. The prices have been manipulated for years. I once heard, that if a one carat diamond could be sold at its real price/value,, it would be less than a $1000.

The Mona Lisa is one of a kind, so I’m not sure if that’s the best analogy,

 

[T L]

I think lab diamonds may replace natural ones in a way that cultured pearls replaced natural pearls. You never ever see natural pearls for sale, however, natural round spherical pearls are extremely rare, unlike white diamonds. Natural round pearls can go to auction for seriously high prices. There are also so many natural white diamonds in circulation right now, owned by the general public, that there will always be a plethora of them, unlike natural pearls.

I feel that natural fancy colored diamonds will always hold their value, because they are truly scarce, especially blues, reds, pinks and greens.

ETA: I heard that Tiffany is now toying with the idea of selling lab diamonds. If one of the fancy highly regarded jewelry houses starts to sell them, the stigma might lessen, and that would add to their further popularity. In any case, I’m not worried about natural material ever becoming so rare, you only see it in museums, lol!

 

[PrecisionGem]

A comparison between diamonds and almost all colored gems:
There has yet to be any real geological science applied to the search for most colored gems - that are almost all formed fairly close to the earths surface. They are discovered by random surface finds.
The science applied to finding diamonds, which actually grow and form from 100 to +500 miles below the earths surface and by chance a few dozen deep seated volcanic eruptions have bought those we have found to the surface.
Because diamonds are the most popular gem by money spent, more is spent prospecting to find them.
If the same effort and money was put into finding sapphires, which are way more plentiful in quantity and sizes than diamonds, they would be far more abundant than they already are.

Im not sure this is true Garry, that sapphire is way more plentiful than diamonds. Walk into any jewelry store in a mall or anyplace else and it's filled with diamonds, and just a few natural sapphire. Ask the jeweler to get in some other diamonds to look and and they can pretty much order up and size, color, clarity, cut and have in a few days. The same is not all true for a quality sapphire, or many other colored stones. I bet if I checked every jeweler in town, I couldn't find one tsavorite garnet, but literally thousands of diamonds.

 

[KLC]

From what I've read here, lab created CS did take off, at the start. They used to be quite popular and desirable when they first entered the market. I keep seeing antique pieces that have lovely natural diamonds as centre stones but still sport lab created coloured side stones.

I actually think there's good chance lab created diamonds will follow the same fate lab created CS had.

However, there's also this one other thing. It may be just my personal bias but... natural coloured stones have so much more character than a natural diamond. With natural diamonds everyone always goes for the cleanest, the most colourless... The most variation you get is some slight warm tint, and in the end they're almost indistinguishable from a lab created ones. Whereas with coloured stones you have all the different hues, the different types and patterns of inclusions... A natural stone is often very obviously natural, compared to the perfection of a lab created one. To me, personally, that's big. But I don't know it if was a contributing factor for why natural CS made a comeback and still hold their crown today.

This.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Im not sure this is true Garry, that sapphire is way more plentiful than diamonds. Walk into any jewelry store in a mall or anyplace else and it's filled with diamonds, and just a few natural sapphire. Ask the jeweler to get in some other diamonds to look and and they can pretty much order up and size, color, clarity, cut and have in a few days. The same is not all true for a quality sapphire, or many other colored stones. I bet if I checked every jeweler in town, I couldn't find one tsavorite garnet, but literally thousands of diamonds.

There are some stats on production of sapphire. It's huge and has been for a long time.
My point was simple though. If sapphire prices were as high as diamond prices there would be 10 times more available.
PS the myth that diamonds ore held in vaults blah blah blah is just sour grape BS

 

[Karl_K]

PS the myth that diamonds ore held in vaults blah blah blah is just sour grape BS

They just came to the agreement that the UE cant sue them if they store them in the earth rather than a vault.
the Russians are likely vaulting a lot of goods right now.
It is historically accurate that there have been huge vaults full of diamonds held off the market by De Beers and the Russians.

 

[fredflintstone]

There are some stats on production of sapphire. It's huge and has been for a long time.
My point was simple though. If sapphire prices were as high as diamond prices there would be 10 times more available.
PS the myth that diamonds ore held in vaults blah blah blah is just sour grape BS

Garry you’re a good guy, I like you, but top quality Sapphires are much rarer than the same quality Diamond. By far. Especially not treated.

Diamonds form way down in the earth that is true but crazy amounts have been spewed up in Volcanos.

Top quality blue Kashmir Sapphire (auctin record is around $250,000 a carat if I remember right) goes for much higher prices than D flawless Diamonds. Burma is up there with Diamonds. Top quality blue Sapphires are not cheap and are getting more expensive as are all top colors and clarities of Sapphire untreated.

Then there is top Burma Ruby that is by far more expensive and so much rarer than D flawless Diamonds, it is unfathomable.

99% of all Sapphire and Ruby are treated in some way, meaning an untreated Sapphire or Ruby of high quality is a very, very, very, rare thing. Can you say that 99% of Diamonds are treated?

Everyone knows it in the trade. I think just about everyone knows it here.

Besides, have we not already had this conversation a few times before? Time to put it to bed.

With that said, I wish you much success in all your gemstone/jewelry endeavors.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

They just came to the agreement that the UE cant sue them if they store them in the earth rather than a vault.
the Russians are likely vaulting a lot of goods right now.
It is historically accurate that there have been huge vaults full of diamonds held off the market by De Beers and the Russians.

Russia has always done this during economic downturns since 1990s.
De Beers did in the 1930s. The last time they did was 1997 and that led to them being privitized with a large portion being owned by Botswana gov.
The stories you learnt about concerned industrial diamonds. Not gems.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Garry you’re a good guy, I like you, but top quality Sapphires are much rarer than the same quality Diamond. By far. Especially not treated.

Diamonds form way down in the earth that is true but crazy amounts have been spewed up in Volcanos.

Top quality blue Kashmir Sapphire (auctin record is around $250,000 a carat if I remember right) goes for much higher prices than D flawless Diamonds. Burma is up there with Diamonds. Top quality blue Sapphires are not cheap and are getting more expensive as are all top colors and clarities of Sapphire untreated.

Then there is top Burma Ruby that is by far more expensive and so much rarer than D flawless Diamonds, it is unfathomable.

99% of all Sapphire and Ruby are treated in some way, meaning an untreated Sapphire or Ruby of high quality is a very, very, very, rare thing. Can you say that 99% of Diamonds are treated?

Everyone knows it in the trade. I think just about everyone knows it here.

Besides, have we not already had this conversation a few times before? Time to put it to bed.

With that said, I wish you much success in all your gemstone/jewelry endeavors.

We can argue about the rarity of very rare till the cows come home Fred.
You say rare Burma ruby - I say rare pink diamond etc.
Fact is there are many more tons of sapphire mined and faceted that there are diamonds. The fact they are mostly treated is not a compelling argument either. The fact is they end up in cheap silver sapphire jewelry.
More interesting is the fact that LGD will all soon cost less than $100 per carat and will wipe out most of the cheap natural diamond jewelry. That means many mines will go out of business. Many African and Brazilian artisanal miners will lose their livelihood.
So better quality natural diamonds will become much rarer.

 

[Crimson]

I love natural CS because each has its own personality. I love examining under the loupe, and taking close up photos so I can see their insides. i don’t think I would have that kind of fun with a lab stone. Like @Avondale, I am fascinated by inclusions.
I enjoy the science of gems . I love being able to classify and identify them, and learning about them from gemmology journals. I spend part of my holidays doing gem research and attending gemmology seminars. The excitement I get from being able identify a ruby as non-heated and from Burma gives me immense satisfaction, as does seeing three phase inclusions in Minerva.
Like @Neptune , I enjoy the thrill of the hunt. I treat my bigger, rarer gems as stores of value; they are portable, alternative assets that I will pass to the next generation.
So no. I would not pay for lab stones because my CS are more than jewellery to me

 

[fredflintstone]

We can argue about the rarity of very rare till the cows come home Fred.
You say rare Burma ruby - I say rare pink diamond etc.
Fact is there are many more tons of sapphire mined and faceted that there are diamonds. The fact they are mostly treated is not a compelling argument either. The fact is they end up in cheap silver sapphire jewelry.
More interesting is the fact that LGD will all soon cost less than $100 per carat and will wipe out most of the cheap natural diamond jewelry. That means many mines will go out of business. Many African and Brazilian artisanal miners will lose their livelihood.
So better quality natural diamonds will become much rarer.

I did not say top gem Ruby was rarer than red Diamond. Don't put words in my keyboard to suit your argument. As a matter of fact, I did not mention colored Diamonds at all. Your would be point is grasping at straws, Gary. You know and everyone knows we're talking about colorless Diamonds. Not a word was mentioned about colored Diamonds by anyone, less I skipped over it.

You have no facts at all about that there are more Sapphires mined and faceted than Diamonds, no proof. Where’s the proof?

The fact that most Sapphires and Rubies are treated is a compelling argument when we are speaking of D flawless Diamonds (not colored Diamonds) verses top untreated blue Sapphire, Rubies and let’s add Pads and orange and purple, just about all untreated top gem corundum. Much rarer than your D, E and F colorless Diamonds of any size. Also, colorless Diamonds come in much larger sizes in quantity than top gem Ruby, blue Sapphire, Pad Sapphire, orange Sapphire, purple Sapphire, etc.

It's not that "better quality natural diamonds will become much rarer.” They'll still be deposits in the earth in quantity ready to be mined if needed, or a better word might be wanted. It's just that karma has caught up with the Diamond or should I say the whole marketing scam that has went on for over 100 years to sell Diamonds to the unsuspecting public that now is suspecting they've been duped for over a century for a gemstone that compared to many other gemstones is quite common, everything being relative.

Nice bat swing at the ball Gary but strike three and next you'll be telling me Americans did not invent baseball.