Why Do We Keep Their Secrets?

[azstonie]

TooPatient and Annette, I was thinking about the same thing you two brought up.

I think that any action that takes away your AGENCY as a person should be prosecuted, what does it matter the body part?

The trauma is the same: You were in the physical control of someone else, who abused you in a violent way.

 

[Rhea]

In an ideal world more women, and men, would report incidents of sexual assault and especially rape. It's a huge and serious crime, but it's not like a burglary. It's your body that's the crime scene. When you report a break-in the police come and take photos and fingerprints, examine your locks and windows. They'll ask how long you were out, what was taken and did you leave any doors or windows unlocked or let anyone know you were gone. Someone may make you a cup of tea and say they're sorry, but the police do their job fairly unemotionally.

In a rape kit those are nude photos in a hospital room after you've stood on a paper sheet and undressed, completely, with all the clothing you were wearing taken away from you for evidence. Swabs are taken of your vagina, mouth, anus, under your fingernails, combing through your pubic hair as well as taking clippings, for evidence. They need to know where you were, did you take anything including drugs or alcohol, what was your relationship to the person. You're still a crime scene and the police reaction to gather evidence is still fairly unemotional. You can't eat or drink, never-mind using the toilet, showering or washing, until it's over if you've reported immediately, that'd be like washing the doorknobs and window frames at a burglary before the police took fingerprints.

I'm not surprised people don't report. I wish they did, but I don't blame people. A non-sexual assault example. My mother has an emotionally abusive mother. My mother is the eldest or feels she bore a lot of the burden. I understand that she attempted to shield her younger siblings and then as adults they never really discussed it. All thought their experiences were just them or years ago so they didn't matter. As adults, they were in the their 50's and 60's before it really came out, they put their mother in a home and started sharing experiences. It was a non-physically or sexually abusive situation but it took that long for them to come together and feel safe sharing experiences of their own emotionally abusive mother! No one wanted to be outcast, told it was just them, or to get over it. Now take that and apply it to sexual assault in a work environment. To admit something happened to you, get others to take you seriously against a big name who is well known and holds power. More people might report in a safer environment, but even then it's a crime and crime scene unlike any other.

 

[yssie]

In an ideal world more women, and men, would report incidents of sexual assault and especially rape. It's a huge and serious crime, but it's not like a burglary. It's your body that's the crime scene. When you report a break-in the police come and take photos and fingerprints, examine your locks and windows. They'll ask how long you were out, what was taken and did you leave any doors or windows unlocked or let anyone know you were gone. Someone may make you a cup of tea and say they're sorry, but the police do their job fairly unemotionally.

In a rape kit those are nude photos in a hospital room after you've stood on a paper sheet and undressed, completely, with all the clothing you were wearing taken away from you for evidence. Swabs are taken of your vagina, mouth, anus, under your fingernails, combing through your pubic hair as well as taking clippings, for evidence. They need to know where you were, did you take anything including drugs or alcohol, what was your relationship to the person. You're still a crime scene and the police reaction to gather evidence is still fairly unemotional. You can't eat or drink, never-mind using the toilet, showering or washing, until it's over if you've reported immediately, that'd be like washing the doorknobs and window frames at a burglary before the police took fingerprints.

I'm not surprised people don't report. I wish they did, but I don't blame people. A non-sexual assault example. My mother has an emotionally abusive mother. My mother is the eldest or feels she bore a lot of the burden. I understand that she attempted to shield her younger siblings and then as adults they never really discussed it. All thought their experiences were just them or years ago so they didn't matter. As adults, they were in the their 50's and 60's before it really came out, they put their mother in a home and started sharing experiences. It was a non-physically or sexually abusive situation but it took that long for them to come together and feel safe sharing experiences of their own emotionally abusive mother! No one wanted to be outcast, told it was just them, or to get over it. Now take that and apply it to sexual assault in a work environment. To admit something happened to you, get others to take you seriously against a big name who is well known and holds power. More people might report in a safer environment, but even then it's a crime and crime scene unlike any other.

This.

 

[cmd2014]

Hi,
Out your grandfathers and attackers, but lets have some lines in the sand before we wreck careers of men needlessly.

Wreck the careers of men needlessly? Are you serious? No one should have the right to touch anyone else inappropriately in the workplace - not a kiss, not an ass grab, not a boob touch, not a suggestive running of the finger up and down a hand or arm - nothing. No one should be exposing themselves or committing lewd sexual acts or gestures in front of anyone in the workplace. Nor should inappropriate remarks be made in the context of a workplace. There is no job in the world where this would be considered appropriate. HR departments are generally pretty clear about what constitutes appropriate vs inappropriate behaviour at work. And if anyone fails to abide by that (man or woman), consequences are absolutely appropriate. Let's be clear: The person who has 'wrecked their career' by engaging in these actions are the people who commit them, not the victims who speak up. And until we are clear about that, the stuff that we are seeing on the news will continue to happen.

 

[LLJsmom]

Hi,

Yes, I agree reporting incidents of sexual assault can be hard and I do wish women would be able to have others believe them.

At a pajama party at a friends house when I was about 15 or 16, the friends father went into one of the rooms and tried to kiss and touch my best friend. It so happened that I slept in the room with the molesters daughter so I didn't see the incident. My best friend told him to get away, which he did, but the next day my best friend told her parents, who called police. The police found he had a record of sexually molesting another person. However, they would not bring charges as they said nothing really happened. But, we were warned to stay away from his house. The daughter, who I still am in contact with never knew and we would never tell her. While it was a scary incident my best friend was not traumatized by it, which leads me to my next point.

Are we going to equate all actions with the same fervor?. Some guy kisses you, some guy pushes you up against a wall, some guy grabs under your skirt, some guy rapes you. To me they are not all equal. We have to tell, but all behaviors are not equal. I would like to tell many of you, but I suspect your husbands and sons are guilty of some of these behaviors. Some behaviors are disgusting, if not criminal, but a guy grabs you and kisses you and you're so traumatized?

Out your grandfathers and attackers, but lets have some lines in the sand before we wreck careers of men needlessly.

Annette

I am glad your friend was not traumatized. I would be. I would draw the line probably 10 steps back from where your friend's Dad was. In the case of your friend, that would have been child molestation. Just because he stopped does not make it ok, not to me anyway. I can see why you would think a large number of men are assaulters, given the number of women who have been assaulted. If you haven't read already, you should read Missoula, by John Kraukuer. It chronicles his in depth investigation of rape in a college town, and uncovers a very interesting trend of repeat offenders... If they had been stopped early on, maybe a significant number of attacks would have been prevented.

Yeah, my line is way far on one side. One time, again when I was very young and had just started working after graduating from college, a manager of mine asked me what color my underwear was. That is where my line is now, at what I consider inappropriate, even a comment can cross my line. I wish I had the courage and wisdom and understanding to say, "That is an extremely inappropriate question, and violates many HR rules. I will need to report this." Instead I said nothing, but another woman, who was about 5 years older, meaning still in her mid-20s, spoke up and said the first part. He stopped after that. So now, that is where my line is. I may be one of those people that are seen to be over sensitive. I can live with that, and the consequences, and maybe unfortunately for some, they will need to as well.

 

[MaisOuiMadame]

@azstonie : I am sorry this happened to you and the part with your mom is just soo soo wrong. I get so mad from reading.

I don't mean to hurt anyone by asking questions on this sensitive subject. And in no way I am even hinting to excuse / condone anything, I am merely trying to understand.

I am a mom of four girls and one of my biggest fears is that I overlook /misinterpret a situation like this with a relative/friend/person we know . As you describe: I am reading in the same room. The sick pig is touching my child inappropriately. And he's manipulating the situation so that I truly don't see and my child thinks I am Ok - nightmare scenArio. So Damaging all around.
Do you think that is possible?

 

[House Cat]

Hi,

Yes, I agree reporting incidents of sexual assault can be hard and I do wish women would be able to have others believe them.

At a pajama party at a friends house when I was about 15 or 16, the friends father went into one of the rooms and tried to kiss and touch my best friend. It so happened that I slept in the room with the molesters daughter so I didn't see the incident. My best friend told him to get away, which he did, but the next day my best friend told her parents, who called police. The police found he had a record of sexually molesting another person. However, they would not bring charges as they said nothing really happened. But, we were warned to stay away from his house. The daughter, who I still am in contact with never knew and we would never tell her. While it was a scary incident my best friend was not traumatized by it, which leads me to my next point.

Are we going to equate all actions with the same fervor?. Some guy kisses you, some guy pushes you up against a wall, some guy grabs under your skirt, some guy rapes you. To me they are not all equal. We have to tell, but all behaviors are not equal. I would like to tell many of you, but I suspect your husbands and sons are guilty of some of these behaviors. Some behaviors are disgusting, if not criminal, but a guy grabs you and kisses you and you're so traumatized?

Out your grandfathers and attackers, but lets have some lines in the sand before we wreck careers of men needlessly.

Annette

One thing I know is that trauma is in the eye of the beholder. Two children can grow up in the same abusive household. One child will end up with PTSD, the other won’t. No one knows why it happens that way. It just does.

The laws are set for the various degrees of sexual assault. It isn’t up to us to judge women for their level of trauma for having their ass grabbed or being raped. It is up to us to support them no matter what they are feeling. This is how we do away with rape culture once and for all.


If a man can’t control himself enough to keep his hand out of a woman’s skirt, he has extremely poor judgement. I would want to know about that as an employer. I would never want someone with such poor impulse control making decisions for my company. A man ruins his own career by making the decision to sexually assault a woman. Pushing a woman against a wall and kissing her against her will is sexual assault. Putting a hand up her skirt against her will, again, sexual assault. Her level of trauma after the fact does not define whether or not his actions are assault. The assault is already defined.

Personally, Annette, I find what you’ve said highly offensive on so many levels. I will never venture to say that my sons or husband have behaved this way. I have spent my son’s lifetimes raising boys who won’t assault women. They know they have a rape victim for a mother. I watched all three of them on three separate occasions feel the hot sear of powerless rage run through their bodies as they heard the words escape from my mouth “I was raped.” I honestly think that changes a man’s values in an instant. It opened a dialogue about consent, decency, love, and sex for us. We talk a lot about what it means to care for women.

Furthermore, with your words, you show that you desire to protect people who commit sexual assault. I interpret you to say that women shouldn’t be so traumatized by a strange man’s hand up her skirt and so she shouldn’t ruin his career. She wasn’t raped, so it isn’t THAT big of a deal. It is that thinking that has kept women in a place of getting groped, prodded, and assaulted in the workplace since they’ve entered it. We have not been safe in the workplace ever. We deserve to be as a matter of basic human decency.

For the record, I would be totally f-ing traumatized if some creep put his hand up my skirt. Maybe I’m just made of cotton candy and need to harden up.

 

[valeria101]

@azstonie
Do you think that is possible?

Yes.

 

[valeria101]

.
@smitcompton , I draw that line at a subtle pat on the back - placed anywhere from a palm under shoulderblades up to the shoulder, included; a shudder means 'no'. Imagine variants of similar magnitude ... Five minutes of mutually acting as if the exchange of gestures never happened, erase the record.