Why do B&M jewelers discourage platinum?

[princessv]

Date: 1/17/2006 9:31:33 AM
Author: TheDoctor
Having worked extensively with both metals for decades, I will offer you this personal evaluation of each:

Platinum is, unless specially alloyed and heat treated to harden it, remarkably soft
I wish that i had photos to illustrate the smearing effect on some of the deep, detailed pave'' work that I have done in platinum, following a mere 6 years of wear. Generic platinum is very workable and easy to perform setting operations with, but...the wear and tear from being on someone''s hand is often disappointing to the purchaser down the road. Sure, I get to make more money with platinum work, but the maintenance costs erode the benefit of that as the clients return repeatedly asking for polishing and detailing that we don''t charge for.

I always tell clieints about the downside of platinum. It''s not that I don''t like it. It''s not that I have difficulty working with it.
It''s that at least 6 times out of ten, they have no idea how nasty it will look down the road.

Sizings with gold solder? This sin''t all that rare. Platinum rings set with diamonds are hazardous to size using welding techniques, as the diamonds will burn under the required temperatures unless the shop owns a laser welder, and even those shops require a benchie who actually knows how to perform total-thickness welds that won''t break.
Platinum solder actually contains very little platinum, and is almost always visible, and no better than a high-white gold solder.

It''s a business decision to disclose the downside of generic platinum, and not necessarily a fear of the unknown, at least in my case. The superior alloys available in high-karat white gold make for jewellery that is allergy-free, doesn''t require rhodium plating, and is hard enough that the settings look unmolested by wear for many, many years....and polish to brand-new condition in less than 5 minutes. Yeah, it''s a no-brainer, and that qualifies me, for sure.

So I''m still a little confused. What would you recommend for detailed pave type work??

I understand there are advantages and disadvantages to both however.

 

[mepearl53]

Date: 1/17/2006 9:31:33 AM
Author: TheDoctor
Having worked extensively with both metals for decades,

Platinum is, unless specially alloyed and heat treated to harden it, remarkably soft
Isolder.

It''s a business decision to disclose the downside of generic platinum, and not necessarily a fear of the unknown,

Well said! Not being a bench jeweler maybe you could better explain the differences in manufacturing techniques. We use branded designers who have put a lot of time into figuring out the best ways to make a high quality product either by casting or hand fabrication. Using terms like casting, handmade differ greatly from manufacture to manufacture and I think people would like to hear from a bench jeweler the huge differences in production technique. It''s night and day from what I have seen.

 

[strmrdr]

For me its kind of a zen things
Gold is sposed to be Gold colored, white gold in unnatural.
For those that like it kewl and iv bought it for family because that is what they wanted but deep down thats my thoughts on it.

agree or disagree please allow me my the right to feel that way if you love white Gold then way kewl :} im not saying its a bad choice its just one that I have a slight aversion too.

 

[codex57]

Never had a jeweler discourage me from platinum. Course, the stuff me and my wife look at are very simple designs so it being "soft" wouldn''t really matter over gold.

 

[TheDoctor]

A good benchie with advanced fabrication skills may producevery nice articles which are much more detailed and crisp than cast itmes of a similar shape. A good exaple of this would be the wire work in the Tiffany Lucida setting, and the many knock-offs that utilize casting and finishing of the entire ring as a one piece unit.
The differences are not apparent to most people, but in the one-piece cast units, the undersides of the setting are minimally finished because there is not tool access, and the wires become distorted, are seldom even round, and they look somewhat underworked or overpolished in almost every case.
Fabricated settings are made from drawn wire that is absolutely round, keyed together to interlock, are welded at the joint, bent and shaped to conform to the space, and welded to the main body of the mounting. Way more work. Does the average buyer want to pay for that detail? Nope.

Other simple examples of fabrication would be milled plates which are ripped down their length, bent into a circle, soldered or welded at the joint, and worked by adding borders which may be fabricated from plate material oif another colour, etc. and set with diamonds. Why not cast this?
Sometimes the material is more dense when milled and assembled, porosity free mirror-finish flat surfaces are nearly impossible to derive from castings.

Platinum is terrible for porosity.All surfaces must be worked extensively to mask this. Then, the welds must be very accurate in order minimize the need to work the surfaces again. If there are opposing angles in the construction, they must be pre-polished prior to welding or soldering. If there is any overfill in the joint, it is either there forever, or it needs to be engraved away, and one slip with the tool will marr the finish of the area that took hours to get a clear shine from....and that clear shine can be ruined forever once the client has worn the piece for ten minutes and made contact with a steel handrail.

This is why fabrication is pretty rare in modern jewellery. What can be made as a casting that looks perfectly acceptable will be. The best, most valuable and elegantly detailed pieces will be entirely fabricated, and will have clean lines, perfect polish, no visible seams, and be texture-free. You won''t find many of these available, anywhere, at least not in the general commerce areas of the net or at the mall.

Soldered platinum constructions are vulnerable to breakage along the seams, as the joints are not much better than if they were glued together. The bonds are surface only, unlike welds, which completely mix the molecular structures of the areas being joined. This is why standard platinum heads have a spike on the bottom. The spike provides a mechanical connection to beef upthe soldered connection, which would be vulnerable on its own.

Sorry, I may have gotten off track a bit. but the confusion about gold alloys would be fairly perplexing even with a detailed explanation, and I''ll leave that for when I have a biut more time. Research 14 karat palladium alloys, which I understand are whiter than 18k palladium alloys because more white element is used in the mixture.

 

[oldminer]

When I first entered the business I was apprenticed to a manufacturing jeweler from the old school who did only platinum work. The entire shop was gold free as any gold mixing into the left over platinum would create problems in recovery and reuse of the platinum in-house. We made all our own platinum prong settings with wires and welding. This was wonderful and clean work if one would compare it to making similar items in gold. The end products were high end and clean as a whistle. All hand made and pretty costly, even at 1967 prices.

Since then, we have had a revolution in alloys. White gold has really come into its own and for good reason. Some of the best alloys make truly white gold and it doesn''t tarnish. Its durable and can be made into things that 40 years ago would not have worked.

I have never discouraged platinum and whilke we were manufacturing up to five years ago, often still had many platinum items created. I suppose some of them could have just as well been white gold, but old habits are hard to change. Platinum has its plus and minus attributes. Its hard to believe jewelers discourage its use, but after reading this thread I can better appreciate why they might. Its an eye-opener to see how things do change.

 

[Caribou]

My FI went to several differnt jewelers and he told most recommended WG rather than platnium.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 1/17/2006 10:52:34 AM
Author: strmrdr
For me its kind of a zen things
Gold is sposed to be Gold colored, white gold in unnatural.
For those that like it kewl and iv bought it for family because that is what they wanted but deep down thats my thoughts on it.

agree or disagree please allow me my the right to feel that way if you love white Gold then way kewl :} im not saying its a bad choice its just one that I have a slight aversion too.

You know, I think that is a great point. For so many years I had yellow gold and was happy with it. We just see so much white metal now that I finally decided to go in that direction for future purchases since white looks better on me. But I really feel that white diamonds stand out more against yellow gold. I wish I could like platinum, but I just don''t think it has the beauty of gold, not to mention all the other problems David has mentioned. No offense to the platinum lovers either.

 

[Rod]

So I was watching the Gem Shopping Network the other night.......GASP, am I the only one willing to admit that I watch that channel? And one of the hosts was selling jewelry from the art decco period and one man''s ring in particular was platinum and highly detailed. The host commented that this ring made in the late thirties, or early forties was unbelievable in platinum and it withstood the test of time better than any of the white gold pieces from the same period. I realize times have changed and with the newer alloys, white gold can be just fine, but I''ll just be an "old fart" (even though I am not that old) and always want my stone sitting in platinum.

 

[stermag]

>For me its kind of a zen things
>Gold is sposed to be Gold colored, white gold in unnatural.

lol
I feel the same way about white chocolate.

On a more serious note: a co-worker of mine was sharing his e-ring buying experience just as my bf and I began to look at rings. His girlfriend, he said, had only one request - she wanted platinum, the rest was up to him. He then explained how the local jeweler he purchased from basically talked him out of platinum and he ended up with white gold instead. His reasoning was (not surprisingly) "This guy has been in the business for years, obviously he knows better than my girlfriend, right?"

At the time, before having really immersed myself in diamond/metal research, all I could say in response was "right", but a few months later, having formed some of my own opinions, I just think it''s sad that so many people completely rely on the words of one or two jewelers to make this choice.

 

[Rod]

Interesting you should have commented on something like your friend''s experience. The recepitonist in our office and her to be fiance are shopping for a ring right now. Having immersed myself in this site in order to buy my ring, she knows I''ve become somewhat knowledgeble and she even thinks my ring is absolutely fantastic.

Today she tells me they found this nice emerald cut in GASP, a "Maul" jeweler, you know, one of those that employs people who know nothing and probably sold shoes two weeks before, even though I''ve tried to point them in a better direction. And she then says that she''s getting white gold because the sales guy told them how bad platinum is and how poorly platinum shines and then I reminded her that my ring is platinum and asked her if she thought my ring was dull and she got all perplexed. Finally, she said, she didn''t care if her stone was graded. She didn''t care where her boyfriend bought the ring. She didn''t care what the metal is. She only wants to be engaged and she''ll love whatever he buys her.

 

[princessv]

Ok so now I''m beginning to understand more of working with platinum. Woe to the next jeweler that simply says "Platinum is bad" to me or white gold for that matter.

The Doctor: I know this is probably alot to ask for but is there any way you could maybe explain how you make a custom platinum piece? I tried to get Quest Jewelers to explain, they use ''lost wax casting'' but it was quick and a little over my head. I know that a few other PSers were asking me about that process and honestly I don''t believe I could explain it well.

 

[mepearl53]

Date: 1/17/2006 5:53:26 PM
Author: stermag
>For me its kind of a zen things
>Gold is sposed to be Gold colored, white gold in unnatural.

lol
I feel the same way about white chocolate.

On a more serious note: a co-worker of mine was sharing his e-ring buying experience just as my bf and I began to look at rings. His girlfriend, he said, had only one request - she wanted platinum, the rest was up to him. He then explained how the local jeweler he purchased from basically talked him out of platinum and he ended up with white gold instead. His reasoning was (not surprisingly) ''This guy has been in the business for years, obviously he knows better than my girlfriend, right?''

At the time, before having really immersed myself in diamond/metal research, all I could say in response was ''right'', but a few months later, having formed some of my own opinions, I just think it''s sad that so many people completely rely on the words of one or two jewelers to make this choice.

Here is another problem for the man. His fiancee wants a particular design and metal color. The guy is expected to go out and purchase a piece that will take her breath away and be happy with forever ( or 5 years max We focus on diamond quality, select a stone and then look for the perfect mounting. Everybody is giving their advice and it becomes confusing. One jeweler wants to sell whats in their inventory the other custom make it. Stores that carry less expensive cast products just don''t look the same as the hand made and the hand made are sometimes as expensive as the diamonds (see two Dave''s above) What''s a guy to do!

One other monkey wrench to throw out. Is it me or anybody else but ideal cut diamonds set in well polished platinum rings look bigger and whiter? My 2 cents

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 1/17/2006 6:18:32 PM
Author: mepearl53


One other monkey wrench to throw out. Is it me or anybody else but ideal cut diamonds set in well polished platinum rings look bigger and whiter? My 2 cents

I encountered this yesterday. I went in a very nice jewelry store to look at settings and diamond quality/color/size (diamond will likely be bought from someone online). They do some beautiful custom work and can make me a setting that reminds me of Beaudry. We talked about that design for 2-3 hours. Okay, then he wants to show me the diamonds. He pulls out a simple, sleek, platinum setting and pops a diamond in. After all that time looking at engraved bands with little diamonds, I said, gosh, I love this diamond in this plain setting! It''s good that I was a customer or he might have shot me!

I still have conflict about that. I love the look of the engraving, and I love the polished simple ring with a plain channel set wedding band. I wonder if I''ll ever figure this out!

 

[TheDoctor]

Date: 1/17/2006 6:15:12 PM
Author: Princess V
Ok so now I'm beginning to understand more of working with platinum. Woe to the next jeweler that simply says 'Platinum is bad' to me or white gold for that matter.

The Doctor: I know this is probably alot to ask for but is there any way you could maybe explain how you make a custom platinum piece? I tried to get Quest Jewelers to explain, they use 'lost wax casting' but it was quick and a little over my head. I know that a few other PSers were asking me about that process and honestly I don't believe I could explain it well.

You could Google "lost wax casting", but I'll simplify it so that it will be easier to grasp:

A "wax" (it's like a semi-hard plastic which is carved into shape) is made which is the exact size/shape/dimension of the desired ring.
It gets trapped in a "flask", a little cup that "investment" is poured into. Investment is like plaster of paris, and hardens around the trapped model "wax".
When the plaster is hard and semi-dry, the entire flask is then placed in a kiln and heated slowly to 1350 degrees F for 3 hours, until the wax is "lost"...burned away....leaving a cavity inside the flask.
It's then allowed to cool slightl. Meanwhile, the desired amount of precious metal is melted in a separate "crucible", a little porcelain bowl that is used for melting metal in. When it is totally wet, molten, it is poured into the opening in the flask, where it fills the cavity.
After cooling slightly (a few minutes) the entire flask is immersed in water, which breaks up the hot investment and releases the ring form.
The ring form is cleaned, filed, burnished, sanded, detailed, and buffed in various ways until it is ready to be set, or have other pieces added to it by welding or solderinmg.

Vey simplified, but I'm sure the idea is clearer to you now.

 

[strmrdr]

link to a thread with an article on wax and casting rings.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/cast-ring-start-to-finish-article-link.38789/

Was going to post it in this thread but couldnt remember which thread it was so started a new one.
wouldnt you know it a few minutes later I find the one I wanted to post it in.

 

[princessv]

TheDoctor and strm: Thank you both so much! This really gives me a clearer picture in my mind of how this process works.

 

[denverappraiser]

I was also trained as an ‘old school’ benchie and did this kind of work for decades. I loved working with platinum, especially for pave and engraving work. The metals just don’t handle the same. It involves a different set of skills and some different tools and most jewelers aren’t really tooled up for it because it doesn’t sell as well. It doesn’t sell as well because of the price. This is no surprise to anyone and who’s to blame the jewelers for wishing to carry things that sell well? Why is it so expensive? Obviously the metal cost is a piece of it, but it’s not usually the biggest piece. Everything takes longer in platinum and a job that would take 2 hours in white gold is going to take 4 hours in platinum. The platinumsmiths tend to be the most experienced, and consequently highest paid, workers and the shop. Customers who want to spring for platinum tend to have higher quality requirements and consequently more time and attention is required to do the detailed finishing work and, again it tends to require the most experienced workers. It takes a lot of practice to get good at this stuf. Now, instead of 2 hours of a journeyman goldsmith you can be looking at 6-8 hours for a master platinumsmith to do what may look from a distance to be the same job. Your labor component just went from $200 to $2000!

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[TheDoctor]

....which brings us right back to the "business decision" not to pitch platinum to customers.
Aside from spending countless hours explaining why it costs so much, it slows down the volume of production and, in the end, results in a lower overall profit picture. After sales service is a killer, unless your customers never return....and who wants that?
So, the question was about why the B& M stores advise against platinum. Perhaps their return rate is considerably higher than the internet vendors, whose products are less easily returned for any kind of service? Just a guess.