Why colored gems are rare and diamonds are not

[LilAlex]

I love gems and diamonds, but i get sick of people saying diamonds are not rare.
Diamonds are not rare because they are more desirable. It is very simple economics.

Greenland's first ruby mine is receiving a huge financial boost with an $18m investment from a mining financier.

It said the initial cost of the Jwaneng expansion was $6bn. Diamonds in Botswana.

Diamonds are thousands of times rarer than colored gems.

Why the periodic pot-stirring again? If this were one of us, it would just be a troll post.

This is a nonsensical economic argument. Think of how much is invested in petroleum and coal extraction -- no wonder that petrol is a million dollars a gallon! Actually, on a global scale, I bet that petrol is rarer than diamond, based upon those geological discoveries highlighted above and the very limited strata within which petroleum is found.

What did Upton Sinclair say? "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

 

[fredflintstone]

Condsider this. Flawless diamond rough is incredibly rare.
The technology used to plan what to cut from diamond is expensive and ultra high tech.
Consider the grading of diamonds. I have yet to see a symmetry grade on a coloured gem.
Etc etc
Color is locked in ancient Roman times.

Flawless Rubies & Emeralds are incredibly non-existent. Diamonds as a whole are a lot more inclusion free than most colored gemstones and that is a fact.

But I ask you, what good is a flawless stone anyway? Many stones need a loupe to see inclusions. So, unless you are totally infatuated with flawless stones, it don't mean a thing to the average Joe Diamond or colored stone buyer. They are more concerned with eye visible inclusions than non eye visible inclusions.

Its like eating a piece a cake. Did they bake it from scratch or doctor up a box of cake mix. Who cares as long as it tastes good.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Just read this.

LOL! Now how can synthetic Diamonds make natural Diamonds rarer? Abracadabra, natural Diamonds are rarer.

The only reason it will be harder raise money for prospecting is that no one will want to invest in a dying market and if the market is not there, prices will dive. Either the money is there or not, and the future of Diamonds as we know it is a coin toss at best.

I am taking bets (my standard bet is $5, so it will not bankrupt you).
Rich people are not going to stop buying luxury cars or diamonds or original rare paintings.`
In truth I skimmed your long post because 1. I stopped for coffee during a ride and had no specs, and 2, it was the same old De Beers is this and that stuff that this post was naively hopeful that some of you may ask "have the liberal anti business media twisted my thinking?"

I have been around a while. I sell a lot of rare colored gems as well as diamonds. I love gems.

I am a geologist first and have top diamond geologist friends.

I put it to you that if anyone wanted to give me the kind of money spent on diamond exploration, and said go find a new source of say pariaba - or whatever - it would not be that hard.
Especially because you would then need to fund a $10 billion dollar mine.

Do you understand. It is like a chicken and egg argument.

Of course no one is going to stump up $500 million for prospecting plus the billions for the mine infrastructure for pariaba or any other gem (other than diamond).

A separate topic completely is De Beers. They were bought down 20 years ago by Argyle and George Soros. But that is another story.

 

[missy]

 

[MjK1]

Is anyone else as confused by this thread as I am??

 

[fredflintstone]

I am taking bets (my standard bet is $5, so it will not bankrupt you).
Rich people are not going to stop buying luxury cars or diamonds or original rare paintings.`
In truth I skimmed your long post because 1. I stopped for coffee during a ride and had no specs, and 2, it was the same old De Beers is this and that stuff that this post was naively hopeful that some of you may ask "have the liberal anti business media twisted my thinking?"

I have been around a while. I sell a lot of rare colored gems as well as diamonds. I love gems.

I am a geologist first and have top diamond geologist friends.

I put it to you that if anyone wanted to give me the kind of money spent on diamond exploration, and said go find a new source of say pariaba - or whatever - it would not be that hard.
Especially because you would then need to fund a $10 billion dollar mine.

Do you understand. It is like a chicken and egg argument.

Of course no one is going to stump up $500 million for prospecting plus the billions for the mine infrastructure for pariaba or any other gem (other than diamond).

A separate topic completely is De Beers. They were bought down 20 years ago by Argyle and George Soros. But that is another story.

Ok.


I retired about 5 years ago from being in the business of retail and wholesale for 40 years of colored gemstones. I personally know the biggest names in the industry if we are tooting horns here. Big deal, right? LOL! You can keep your 500 pennies because you may need that in the future to buy your next cup of coffee or a down payment on some reading glasses.

The only two things you are right about is the rich will keep buying Diamonds and DeBeers was brought down 20 years ago. Bravo, what a revelation!


I belong to the biggest industry group on FB with over 22,000 jewelers, jewelry designers, wholesalers, bench jewelers, etc. You know what they are most afraid of, the Diamond dealers and jewelers? Synthetic Diamonds. To the point that no one is allowed to sale synthetic Diamonds on their group at all or be banned. Thousands are afraid of synthetic Diamonds and as well as they should be because much of their business comes from the middle class. Yes, the rich by Diamonds but even the rich cannot support the whole Diamond industry.

"Of course no one is going to stump up $500 million for prospecting plus the billions for the mine infrastructure for pariaba or any other gem (other than diamond)." - From your own finger tips. You just said it in not so many words, Diamonds are not rare. The whole subject of this thread before it got off course. Of course they would not, the supply is not there, the Diamonds are.

So, just keep doing what you are doing for I know you enjoy it. Because if you did not, you would not be coming to a colored gemstone forum stirring the pot as someone else wrote. You answers have been vague, short, and of no real consequence. You here just looking for a fight. Well, good luck to you. I am not feeding the troll anymore.

 

[glitterata]

The problem with this discussion is that there are two different definitions of "not rare" going on here. Some people are using "not rare" to mean "widely available for sale to consumers." Others are using it to mean "existing in large quantities somewhere in or on Earth." Until you're using the same definition, you'll never agree about whether diamonds are rare.

 

[Bron357]

My 5 cents...... rare means not occurring often and of “things”, not found frequently and therefore of interest and value.

For the effort and energy expended to find and mine diamonds, diamonds are rare. Many more tons of material has to be dug and examined to produce 1 carat of diamond than 1 carat of ruby or emerald.
However by number found, in comparison to Rubies and Emeralds, they are not rare by quantity.
If you were to gather a random sample of say 1,000 ladies wearing engagement rings, diamonds would not be “rare“ as a choice of gemstone in said sample of engagement rings.

And yes, lab grown diamonds will make natural diamonds rarer. It won’t “undo” the number of natural diamonds already mined but it will discourage/ limit the effort and energy of further exploration for natural diamonds.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

The problem with this discussion is that there are two different definitions of "not rare" going on here. Some people are using "not rare" to mean "widely available for sale to consumers." Others are using it to mean "existing in large quantities somewhere in or on Earth." Until you're using the same definition, you'll never agree about whether diamonds are rare.

Thank you Glitterata.
That is exactly what I am saying but said better.
There might be 10 or 100 times more high quality amethyst at mineable depths than diamonds.
But at $50ct max for the rough no one is going to go get it.

Thanks. You nailed it.

 

[MjK1]

Thank god someone did....

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

My 5 cents...... rare means not occurring often and of “things”, not found frequently and therefore of interest and value.

For the effort and energy expended to find and mine diamonds, diamonds are rare. Many more tons of material has to be dug and examined to produce 1 carat of diamond than 1 carat of ruby or emerald.
However by number found, in comparison to Rubies and Emeralds, they are not rare by quantity.
If you were to gather a random sample of say 1,000 ladies wearing engagement rings, diamonds would not be “rare“ as a choice of gemstone in said sample of engagement rings.

And yes, lab grown diamonds will make natural diamonds rarer. It won’t “undo” the number of natural diamonds already mined but it will discourage/ limit the effort and energy of further exploration for natural diamonds.

Thank you too Bron.
In the case of say Aquamarine, or Amethyst, I wonder how the total mined carat or the total ownership in carat weight compares to diamond?
They grow in big crystals and the price differential between 0.50ct and 5ct is not large.

 

[LD]

Not if you want most types fancy shapes. Let alone a pair with the same cut appearnce color and clarity.

I respectfully disagree. You can commission these very easily as the material is readily available. You CAN'T do this with coloured gemstones. If I wanted a top quality 5ct Alexandrite (for example), I would be waiting years potentially as very little is being mined, very little top quality material is on the market and most importantly, I would have to have money to burn in order to buy it. Now if I wanted a 5ct diamond, I would have no such problem.

Condsider this. Flawless diamond rough is incredibly rare.
The technology used to plan what to cut from diamond is expensive and ultra high tech.
Consider the grading of diamonds. I have yet to see a symmetry grade on a coloured gem.
Etc etc
Color is locked in ancient Roman times.

In the UK at the moment, GemsTV are selling jewellery with graded flawless diamonds so I'm a bit at a loss to understand how flawless diamond rough is incredibly rare!!!!!

I think you've missed the point about coloured gemstones if you feel symmetry grading is the most important aspect. COLOUR is king - and that is why the two worlds of diamonds and coloured gemstones live side by side but can't be compared. You can't take your knowledge of diamonds and try to apply it to coloured gemstones.

Bringing into the argument the cost of mining - well that doesn't make anything rare. It just makes things more expensive to mine and may affect the price to the customer. They don't make many Aston Martin cars a year because they're hand made - does that make them rare? No it makes them expensive!

 

[LD]

The problem with this discussion is that there are two different definitions of "not rare" going on here. Some people are using "not rare" to mean "widely available for sale to consumers." Others are using it to mean "existing in large quantities somewhere in or on Earth." Until you're using the same definition, you'll never agree about whether diamonds are rare.

Surely it's the same thing? If diamonds exist in large quantities somewhere in or on Earth and are widely available to customers (which they are) then I fail to see how they can be considered rare?

 

[MjK1]

I respectfully disagree. You can commission these very easily as the material is readily available. You CAN'T do this with coloured gemstones. If I wanted a top quality 5ct Alexandrite (for example), I would be waiting years potentially as very little is being mined, very little top quality material is on the market and most importantly, I would have to have money to burn in order to buy it. Now if I wanted a 5ct diamond, I would have no such problem.



In the UK at the moment, GemsTV are selling jewellery with graded flawless diamonds so I'm a bit at a loss to understand how flawless diamond rough is incredibly rare!!!!!

I think you've missed the point about coloured gemstones if you feel symmetry grading is the most important aspect. COLOUR is king - and that is why the two worlds of diamonds and coloured gemstones live side by side but can't be compared. You can't take your knowledge of diamonds and try to apply it to coloured gemstones.

Don't buy from Gems TV....their jewelry is cheap...because it is cheap. Thinnest gold on a ring shank I ever saw...

 

[fredflintstone]

My 5 cents...... rare means not occurring often and of “things”, not found frequently and therefore of interest and value.

For the effort and energy expended to find and mine diamonds, diamonds are rare. Many more tons of material has to be dug and examined to produce 1 carat of diamond than 1 carat of ruby or emerald.
However by number found, in comparison to Rubies and Emeralds, they are not rare by quantity.
If you were to gather a random sample of say 1,000 ladies wearing engagement rings, diamonds would not be “rare“ as a choice of gemstone in said sample of engagement rings.

And yes, lab grown diamonds will make natural diamonds rarer. It won’t “undo” the number of natural diamonds already mined but it will discourage/ limit the effort and energy of further exploration for natural diamonds.

I hate to reply here but how do you quantify that gem quality Rubies and Emeralds are produced more with less tonnage of earth? Many of these stones are dug up by families, individuals and there is no real way of knowing how much earth is dug up to know if they are, or are not, more, the same, or less than Diamonds. Then you must figure out how many deposits and the quantity and quality of those deposits per ratio. There is no way to do it.

While Diamonds are dug up by large miming concerns and therefore an average can be calculated, but then again, not every mine produces the same ratio.

As far as natural Diamonds becoming less rare, no. Just less demand. Sure, there may be less on the market but that does not equate to true rarity. There is still much more in the ground and there is such a huge stockpile that anyone that wants a real Diamond will be able to get one.

So, rare really is not the case, as they do exist, while the best Ruby is being mined out and Emerald is not far behind. Otherwise, sure, there is a lot of commercial quality to just gravel. But we are speaking of gem quality stones here. At least I think we are.

 

[ForteKitty]

The only real way to settle this is to blow the whole planet up and harvest/sort/catalog each item.

 

[LD]

Don't buy from Gems TV....their jewelry is cheap...because it is cheap. Thinnest gold on a ring shank I ever saw...

Hahahaha I have no intention of doing so! I was just making a point that if they can buy and sell graded flawless diamonds (in minute gram weights of gold jewellery) then it makes a mockery of this whole argument and the word "rare"!

 

[fredflintstone]

The only real way to settle this is to blow the whole planet up and harvest/sort/catalog each item.

LOLOLOL! Now that's funny!

 

[LilAlex]

Until you're using the same definition, you'll never agree about whether diamonds are rare.

Not arguing about what "rare" means.

OP's initial argument upthread was: diamond mines are incredibly costly, therefore diamonds are rare. Both statements are true but the argument does not make sense. There are countless counterexamples that any of us can easily come up with.

OPs' argument really is this: selling diamonds is lucrative, therefore a costly diamond mine is a a worthwhile long-term investment.

He knows a distinguished career more than I do about diamonds, but his economic argument is rubbish.

 

[fredflintstone]

I think everyone here will find this a very interesting read:

Are diamonds really rare? Myths and misconceptions about diamonds #diamonds

Diamonds are popular gemstones surrounded by popular misconceptions. We'll tell you how they became so prized and debunk some of those diamond myths, too.

www.gemsociety.org

 

[fredflintstone]

My aplogies, ItsMainleyou, You beat me to this article, Well, it don't hurt to post it twice.

 

[PinkAndBlueBling]

The only real way to settle this is to blow the whole planet up and harvest/sort/catalog each item.

I would, but I just don't have the time. Plus, we have to make sure all of us stick around to count and end this debate one and for all.

 

[Fabtwinsmom]

Ok.


I retired about 5 years ago from being in the business of retail and wholesale for 40 years of colored gemstones. I personally know the biggest names in the industry if we are tooting horns here. Big deal, right? LOL! You can keep your 500 pennies because you may need that in the future to buy your next cup of coffee or a down payment on some reading glasses.

The only two things you are right about is the rich will keep buying Diamonds and DeBeers was brought down 20 years ago. Bravo, what a revelation!


I belong to the biggest industry group on FB with over 22,000 jewelers, jewelry designers, wholesalers, bench jewelers, etc. You know what they are most afraid of, the Diamond dealers and jewelers? Synthetic Diamonds. To the point that no one is allowed to sale synthetic Diamonds on their group at all or be banned. Thousands are afraid of synthetic Diamonds and as well as they should be because much of their business comes from the middle class. Yes, the rich by Diamonds but even the rich cannot support the whole Diamond industry.

"Of course no one is going to stump up $500 million for prospecting plus the billions for the mine infrastructure for pariaba or any other gem (other than diamond)." - From your own finger tips. You just said it in not so many words, Diamonds are not rare. The whole subject of this thread before it got off course. Of course they would not, the supply is not there, the Diamonds are.

So, just keep doing what you are doing for I know you enjoy it. Because if you did not, you would not be coming to a colored gemstone forum stirring the pot as someone else wrote. You answers have been vague, short, and of no real consequence. You here just looking for a fight. Well, good luck to you. I am not feeding the troll anymore.

I find this thread a highly interesting read on a cloudy and gloomy Sunday afternoon. Just curious about the synthetic diamonds you mentioned. Is that the same as lab diamonds?

 

[fredflintstone]

I find this thread a highly interesting read on a cloudy and gloomy Sunday afternoon. Just curious about the synthetic diamonds you mentioned. Is that the same as lab diamonds?

Yes, one and the same.

 

[Fabtwinsmom]

Yes, one and the same.

Thanks, @fredflintstone!

It’s very interesting to read varying PoV.

 

[LemonMoonLex]

What riddle must I answer to cross the bridge?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I think everyone here will find this a very interesting read:

Are diamonds really rare? Myths and misconceptions about diamonds #diamonds

Diamonds are popular gemstones surrounded by popular misconceptions. We'll tell you how they became so prized and debunk some of those diamond myths, too.

www.gemsociety.org

A little time poor, but if I get some time this wee I will address the way off parts of that article. Writting an article like that without any attribution or fact checking is rather poor for an org that should have the resources and contacts to do a lot better.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

What riddle must I answer to cross the bridge?

Google/ youtube the Monty Python and the black knight and the bridge. None Shall Pass.

 

[fredflintstone]

A little time poor, but if I get some time this wee I will address the way off parts of that article. Writting an article like that without any attribution or fact checking is rather poor for an org that should have the resources and contacts to do a lot better.

Let us be honest here Garry, you are a Diamond/jewelry vendor. You make your living off Diamonds. I do see that you sale other stones, but your main income is Diamonds. Considering those facts, you will say whatever you can to defend your position and income. Well, I probably would too, but the facts are just that, facts, no matter how you dispute it and with who, us here on this colored gemstone forum or a highly respected organization like the IGS. Well, have at it, though you are not going to convince many here of your facts. You are prospecting in the wrong place. This is a colored gemstone forum. I really do not see the point of this whole thread, other than you may think you may drum some business up here. But you are drumming on a dead horse as most of us here love colored gemstones and look at Diamonds as accent stones to them at best. I am not saying Diamonds are not beautiful, they are, but familiarity breeds contempt, and we here are all too familiar with Diamonds.

 

[PrecisionGem]

So Gary, the CDC claims that a little over 2 million people get married every year in the USA. Lets assume that only half get a diamond engagement ring. No since you stated that diamonds are more rare than colored stones, do you think there would be say enough Tsavorite garnets to created 1 million rings every year? Not to mention all the side stones and stones used for other jewelry!

Your position is simply not true. You know as any jeweler does, that if they have a client interested in a 2 ct round diamond, in two days you can have in at least a half dozen stones for the client to look at that meet their specifications.
Do you think you could get in that many tsavorites in 2 days to look at that were round and 2 ct? Do you think you get in even 1 or 2 ?

I bet if you pulled all the diamonds out of the stores in Tyson Mall outside DC in one day, you couldn't find that many tsavorites in the world in one day.