Why buy a diamond?

[SKYSERFIN]

All - I have been reading this forum and will be purchasing an ering because I am supposed to. I haven't seen anywhere on this forum about the actual facts about diamond and how the whole industry is a crock. Artificial supply restrictions and demand created by those with a clear interest. Aren't we better off buying something else? CZ?

Diamonds are in fact, not rare. They pose no real value, other than maybe 50% of your purchase price.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

 

[Acinom]

Since I assume you live in a free country and nobody is forcing you to buy a diamond e-ring, I wouldn't buy one.

You could also opt for a special wedding band only or a colored gemstone. I would not buy a fake stone, but that's just me. Again, you are free to buy a fake stone (though I do not understand why you would want a replica of something you detest...

Perhaps it's an idea to discuss this with your gf.

 

[Karl_K]

because they are kewl, and my Wifey4ever and I like them.

 

[MarionC]

Everyone has an opinion and I would not begrudge you yours.
Here's my 2 cents...
There is intrinsic value in diamonds that has nothing to do with money.
Some people get high on beauty, others go....eh.
Most everyone here gets high on beauty, that's why they are here. If your gf has a love for beauty and you love her, I hope you can find it in your heart to support her. If you go into this with a resentful attitude, you will be unhappy and so will she.
I'm not saying "buy a diamond!", I'm saying keep an open mind and approach the whole thing with love. Then no matter what you end up with, you both will be happy.

 

[MarionC]

because they are kewl, and my Wifey4ever and I like them.

I always wondered what the "K" stood for...

 

[Mayk]

Seriously unless your fiancé feels the same way I feel sorry for her. You just posted in a diamnd/jewelry forum asking why? Dude... Buy whatever you want costume, colored gems, diamonds...but if actually decide to buy a diamond the fine folks here will help you find the best in your budget.

 

[momhappy]

No one is forcing you to purchase anything. If you and your girlfriend don't care for diamonds, then don't buy them. Clearly, this discussion would be much more appropriate (and productive) with your girlfriend because your two opinions are really the only ones that matter when it comes to your choices/decisions.

 

[kenny]

 

[WinkHPD]

Oh darn Kenny, I was just about to spend a half hour on a reasoned response about how there is no artificial shortage of diamonds and how while that may have been true forty years ago it is now very real. I was even going to dig up facts and figures to demonstrate the falling current production against the steeply rising current demand.

I was also going to try to demonstrate that diamonds are a symbol of love and do mean something to most of the recipients. When I give presentations to local groups and I ask the ladies in the room if they remember the moment of the engagement, nearly all the hands go up. I have had ladies tell me more than fifty years after the event what HE was wearing and what he said and how it made her feel. (I rarely remember what I was wearing yesterday, let alone fifty years ago.)

If our OP is indeed a troll I am guessing that he may be a little surprised by the nearly unanimous support for him not to buy a diamond if he does not want to.

In any case, welcome Skyserfin. Stay if you want to learn, or not if you only want to disrupt. You will have a great deal of success if you want to learn, not so much if disruption is your goal. You will find us a pretty helpful group for those who wish to learn.

Wink

 

[MarionC]

Oh darn Kenny, I was just about to spend a half hour on a reasoned response about how there is no artificial shortage of diamonds and how while that may have been true forty years ago it is now very real. I was even going to dig up facts and figures to demonstrate the falling current production against the steeply rising current demand.

Please, Wink, don't let anything stop you! This is a fascinating subject needing facts & figures, and who better to educate us?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

All I can say is that I hope the girl in this picture dislikes diamonds and jewelry, because she is going to get little joy from the experience if her guy is not into pleasing her first and foremost.

Most of us here have diamond jewelry because it is beautiful when it is high quality. It is enduring and can be an heirloom for daughters or granddaughters. Think of the sports car you'd most love to have. Well, many women feel that way about diamonds.

 

[teobdl]

Everyone has an opinion and I would not begrudge you yours.
Here's my 2 cents...
There is intrinsic value in diamonds that has nothing to do with money.
Some people get high on beauty, others go....eh.
Most everyone here gets high on beauty, that's why they are here. If your gf has a love for beauty and you love her, I hope you can find it in your heart to support her. If you go into this with a resentful attitude, you will be unhappy and so will she.
I'm not saying "buy a diamond!", I'm saying keep an open mind and approach the whole thing with love. Then no matter what you end up with, you both will be happy.

The bolded statement above assumes that his gf believes diamonds = beauty. She may not, and she may even find jewelry to be tacky, a waste of money, or have any other opinion about jewelry and/or diamonds that most on this board would vociferously disagree with.

This broader conversation, however, is not inconsistent with the aims of the board, which at its heart is an educational forum about diamonds. The supply side of diamonds has been a topic of conversation in the past, and I don't see why it can't be discussed now.

There is no question that the diamond industry is run by a cartel that artificially inflates the price. De Beers has pleaded guilty to price fixing, violating anti-trust laws, and monopolizing (unlawfully) the supply of diamonds. This, and a number of other factors-some external to De Beers and others by design-- has raised the price of diamonds, and has created a sense of value highly divorced from an externally validated intrinsic value. What is the price of beauty? Well this depends on your definition of beauty and what you're willing to pay for it. The OP was merely bringing up these issues, which are absolutely considered by any first-time purchaser of diamonds.

 

[MollyMalone]

* * * The bolded statement above assumes that his gf believes diamonds = beauty. She may not, and she may even find jewelry to be tacky, a waste of money, or have any other opinion about jewelry and/or diamonds that most on this board would vociferously disagree with. * * *

Well, if that's true, this couple has huge communication issues. SKYSERFIN seems to be planning to spend ~$12,000 on a diamond for his future wife's engagement ring, has asked for PS help in deciding between a 1.75 and a 1.50 ct (you responded to him there)
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/please-help-color-dilemma-for-engagement-ring.200196/

 

[Acinom]

Just to add: when my husband proposed in the ancient Thai city Sukothai, it was overly romantic and I was super happy. And he didn't propose with a ring. I live in Holland: e-rings are becoming a bit more well known, but 92% of my friends doesn't have an e-ring. And we are completely fine with it: we do not expect one and it is not part of our culture at all.

I assume in your culture it is and your gf will probably expect a ring. Is it a necessity? No. Should you fulfill all expectations in live. No.
But it is a special moment and you would make her very very happy I assume. But it's all about the two of you and what you both value. And it would be really sweet to give her something you do not care about yoursel. Good luck making your decision

And oh... personally I looooove diamonds. My stackable wedding band has diamonds and I wear a 5 ct solitaire.
The sparkle of a diamond is beyond belief. It's great to wear a little piece of 'nature art' on your finger every day. I never get bored to look at it.

 

[WinkHPD]

Oh darn Kenny, I was just about to spend a half hour on a reasoned response about how there is no artificial shortage of diamonds and how while that may have been true forty years ago it is now very real. I was even going to dig up facts and figures to demonstrate the falling current production against the steeply rising current demand.

Please, Wink, don't let anything stop you! This is a fascinating subject needing facts & figures, and who better to educate us?

Paul Slegers. He is very actively in the market at a much deeper level than I. He gave an excellent overview of both the supply and the demand level and where it is expected to go over the next twenty years and how that will affect pricing at all levels. I wish I had saved the URL for it. Perhaps someone can link us to that thread as it was very interesting and had a great impact on many of us in the trade as we digested these facts.

Better yet, maybe Paul will come by and give us an update.

Wink

 

[MarionC]

Everyone has an opinion and I would not begrudge you yours.
Here's my 2 cents...
There is intrinsic value in diamonds that has nothing to do with money.
Some people get high on beauty, others go....eh.
Most everyone here gets high on beauty, that's why they are here. If your gf has a love for beauty and you love her, I hope you can find it in your heart to support her. If you go into this with a resentful attitude, you will be unhappy and so will she.
I'm not saying "buy a diamond!", I'm saying keep an open mind and approach the whole thing with love. Then no matter what you end up with, you both will be happy.

The bolded statement above assumes that his gf believes diamonds = beauty. She may not, and she may even find jewelry to be tacky, a waste of money, or have any other opinion about jewelry and/or diamonds that most on this board would vociferously disagree with.

This broader conversation, however, is not inconsistent with the aims of the board, which at its heart is an educational forum about diamonds. The supply side of diamonds has been a topic of conversation in the past, and I don't see why it can't be discussed now.

There is no question that the diamond industry is run by a cartel that artificially inflates the price. De Beers has pleaded guilty to price fixing, violating anti-trust laws, and monopolizing (unlawfully) the supply of diamonds. This, and a number of other factors-some external to De Beers and others by design-- has raised the price of diamonds, and has created a sense of value highly divorced from an externally validated intrinsic value. What is the price of beauty? Well this depends on your definition of beauty and what you're willing to pay for it. The OP was merely bringing up these issues, which are absolutely considered by any first-time purchaser of diamonds.

argh. I put the "IF" in like a good attorney, which precludes assumption, but yes, in my shiny sparkly little mind I can't fathom women who are not of the Crow Cult, but I'm sure it does happen often - we just don't see them here

 

[WinkHPD]

Everyone has an opinion and I would not begrudge you yours.
Here's my 2 cents...
There is intrinsic value in diamonds that has nothing to do with money.
Some people get high on beauty, others go....eh.
Most everyone here gets high on beauty, that's why they are here. If your gf has a love for beauty and you love her, I hope you can find it in your heart to support her. If you go into this with a resentful attitude, you will be unhappy and so will she.
I'm not saying "buy a diamond!", I'm saying keep an open mind and approach the whole thing with love. Then no matter what you end up with, you both will be happy.

The bolded statement above assumes that his gf believes diamonds = beauty. She may not, and she may even find jewelry to be tacky, a waste of money, or have any other opinion about jewelry and/or diamonds that most on this board would vociferously disagree with.

This broader conversation, however, is not inconsistent with the aims of the board, which at its heart is an educational forum about diamonds. The supply side of diamonds has been a topic of conversation in the past, and I don't see why it can't be discussed now.

There is no question that the diamond industry is run by a cartel that artificially inflates the price. De Beers has pleaded guilty to price fixing, violating anti-trust laws, and monopolizing (unlawfully) the supply of diamonds. This, and a number of other factors-some external to De Beers and others by design-- has raised the price of diamonds, and has created a sense of value highly divorced from an externally validated intrinsic value. What is the price of beauty? Well this depends on your definition of beauty and what you're willing to pay for it. The OP was merely bringing up these issues, which are absolutely considered by any first-time purchaser of diamonds.

DeBeers pled guilty to gain access to the United States market and was guilty by US laws. At one point DeBeers did control the majority of the diamond market and certainly behaved in a monopolistic manner. Today DeBeers controls less than 30% of the world's supply of diamonds, and I suspect it is actually much less than that and last I heard from a credible source, expected to fall even further.

I would argue that with less than 30% of the world market that DeBeers is no longer a cartel with the power to artificially inflate the price. I do believe that for the most part the producing countries are using market forces to set the pricing and that when the market is unwilling to pay more, prices do not rise. When the market is willing to pay more, prices do rise and will continue to do so. World wide production is falling at the same time that world wide demand is sharply rising.

Whereas at one time the United States consumed a huge majority of the world wide diamond production each year we now consume way less than half and that percentage is falling each year as we become less important in the world wide market.

These are interesting times to be in the diamond business. Many firms will flounder and perish, but those who stay on their toes should not only survive, but flourish.

Wink

 

[MollyMalone]

Paul Slegers. He is very actively in the market at a much deeper level than I. He gave an excellent overview of both the supply and the demand level and where it is expected to go over the next twenty years and how that will affect pricing at all levels. I wish I had saved the URL for it. Perhaps someone can link us to that thread as it was very interesting and had a great impact on many of us in the trade as we digested these facts.

Better yet, maybe Paul will come by and give us an update.

Wink

Perhaps these 2005 articles are what you are thinking of?
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/diamond_industry_2005
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/diamond_industry_2005_–_halfway_review

Since it's now 2014, an update would be great to have available here on PS.

 

[Dancing Fire]

All - I have been reading this forum and will be purchasing an ering because I am supposed to. I haven't seen anywhere on this forum about the actual facts about diamond and how the whole industry is a crock. Artificial supply restrictions and demand created by those with a clear interest. Aren't we better off buying something else? CZ?

Diamonds are in fact, not rare. They pose no real value, other than maybe 50% of your purchase price.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

Yes, much cheaper, but don't tell her it is a FAKE..

 

[Amour_Et_Diamants]

* * * The bolded statement above assumes that his gf believes diamonds = beauty. She may not, and she may even find jewelry to be tacky, a waste of money, or have any other opinion about jewelry and/or diamonds that most on this board would vociferously disagree with. * * *

Well, if that's true, this couple has huge communication issues. SKYSERFIN seems to be planning to spend ~$12,000 on a diamond for his future wife's engagement ring, has asked for PS help in deciding between a 1.75 and a 1.50 ct (you responded to him there)
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/please-help-color-dilemma-for-engagement-ring.200196/

 

[WinkHPD]

All - I have been reading this forum and will be purchasing an ering because I am supposed to. I haven't seen anywhere on this forum about the actual facts about diamond and how the whole industry is a crock. Artificial supply restrictions and demand created by those with a clear interest. Aren't we better off buying something else? CZ?

Diamonds are in fact, not rare. They pose no real value, other than maybe 50% of your purchase price.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

Yes, much cheaper, but don't tell her it is a FAKE..

I know you were joking, but that is a REALLY bad idea.

Although...

Once I had two "ladies" come into my office, one of them had two diamonds to sell. The first was a nice soft but bright blue that would have been worth several hundred thousand dollars but for one small problem. It was synthetic spinel, which I showed the two ladies how I identified what it was so that they were comfortable with the fact that it was not a diamond.

She then made some disparaging comments about her ex fiance and what a cheap SOB he was, but then laughed with her girlfriend that at least she had managed to keep the engagement ring when she dumped him. So she still had her 4ct diamond to sell to recoup some of the money she had spent on him in the few months that they were engaged. (Big red flag, I cold no longer have purchased from her for legal reasons, at least in the State of Idaho where the "gift" should have been returned when the engagement was broken.)

I was saved from having to discuss this with them though, when the diamond turned out to be a CZ, and a poorly cut one at that. It seems each had been using the other and even perhaps deserved each other. So, maybe in this case, it was a good idea since they were both out to milk the other of all they could get. I certainly was not impressed with either of the two "ladies," and if even ten percent of the comments they were making about "him" were true I really did not want to know nor have any empathy for him either.

Still, I would have to say that between two nice people, giving a CZ without full disclosure would always be a REAL BAD IDEA!

Wink

 

[mrs-b]

Personally, I'm thinking of switching to a ruby. I love diamonds, But the color of a good ruby just can't be beat!

ETA Just came back to add - I also have a number of diamond rings, so switching one out for a ruby is not a hugely radical thing. I love both.

 

[msop04]

* * * The bolded statement above assumes that his gf believes diamonds = beauty. She may not, and she may even find jewelry to be tacky, a waste of money, or have any other opinion about jewelry and/or diamonds that most on this board would vociferously disagree with. * * *

Well, if that's true, this couple has huge communication issues. SKYSERFIN seems to be planning to spend ~$12,000 on a diamond for his future wife's engagement ring, has asked for PS help in deciding between a 1.75 and a 1.50 ct (you responded to him there)
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/please-help-color-dilemma-for-engagement-ring.200196/

Ummm... I'm confused, OP.

 

[soxfan]

* * * The bolded statement above assumes that his gf believes diamonds = beauty. She may not, and she may even find jewelry to be tacky, a waste of money, or have any other opinion about jewelry and/or diamonds that most on this board would vociferously disagree with. * * *

Well, if that's true, this couple has huge communication issues. SKYSERFIN seems to be planning to spend ~$12,000 on a diamond for his future wife's engagement ring, has asked for PS help in deciding between a 1.75 and a 1.50 ct (you responded to him there)
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/please-help-color-dilemma-for-engagement-ring.200196/

oh snap......

 

[teobdl]

My take is that he wants to buy a ring, but still has lingering thoughts about whether it's worth the good money he's spending. Completely normal. Anyone who doesn't have these questions, especially when making one of the biggest purchase of his/her life to that point, is a probably a little irresponsible with their money.

 

[Karl_K]

troll or not conversations like this once in a while are a good thing! for several reasons.
1: For every poster there are thousands of lurkers and more than few are asking exactly this question.
2: it sometimes helps to ground some of the more obsessed diamondaholics, there have been times I have needed it so don't be insulted!
3: it often leads to interesting information from Garry, Yoram, John, Wink or Paul who have a finger on the pulse of the international diamond situation.
4: everyone can learn something even from a troll thread if the regulars want it to happen and don't just start yelling troll.
5: the most annoying thing for a true troll is for a troll thread to lead to civil informative discussion from the regulars.

 

[iluvdiamonds2]

iluvdiamonds2



i personally love the clear icy look, that's just me. so i'm a sucker for diamonds!

 

[denverappraiser]

Diamonds are in fact, not rare. They pose no real value, other than maybe 50% of your purchase price.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

Skyserfin,

You pose a legitimate enough question, even if you are a troll (or at least acting like one), but you’ve got two statements of ‘fact’ that I take exception to. Diamonds aren’t rare. There is no real value. I disagree with both of these.

Rarity is discussed in several of the answer above and I suppose it depends on what you mean by the term. Total worldwide diamond production of cutable gem diamonds is currently about 80M carats. That’s about 4000 tons. That’s a decently big number but consider that about 60% of that is lost in the cutting process and about 80% of THAT results in stones below 0.10cts. each. You know, the stones in tennis bracelets and the side stones on a ring. That gives about 5-10M carats per year of what might be conceivably suitable for the typical design of an engagement ring, even a little one. That still seems like a big number but it’s actually pretty scarce. Bear in mind that the world has 5 billion people in it, half of whom are women, and a third or so of those are single adults. That’s a LOT of potential brides. Given that there are a significant number of married women as well as men who are also interested in owning them, and you find that there’s not really all that many to go around.

You mention real value. I presume you mean by that the amount that an unskilled seller can realize on resale compared to what they cost at retail. For many it’s actually less than 50% but, that’s true of nearly everything you buy. It's the nature of a modern economy, not the nature of diamonds. I would call that a silly definition of value but I’m also hard pressed to think of a single product that does better other than possibly real estate and precious metals, both of which have their own problems. Try and sell a piece of electronics, food, clothing, a car, or a piece of furniture and tell me the ‘real value’ is better. Services fare even worse. Is there no value present because you can’t resell dental work, insurance, used theater tickets, or much of any other service you get? Just out of curiosity, what industry are YOU in, and do you deliver ‘real value’ to your customers? Value gets to be defined by the buyer. People buy diamonds because they think that they or a loved one will enjoy them. For the most part it works. People DO enjoy them, especially a lot of brides. They’re pretty durable, they aren’t perishable, obsolescence is usually not an issue, they’re low maintenance, they’re easy to store, they’re easily transferable, and they’re suitable in lots of situations. That’s a decent list of attributes. Are they reasons to buy diamonds? No, not really. Karl answered that one early on. Buy them because they’re kewl.

 

[heididdl]

I promised I would never ditto but I am ditto inc Kenny Troll away dude

 

[WinkHPD]

Diamonds are in fact, not rare. They pose no real value, other than maybe 50% of your purchase price.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

Skyserfin,

You pose a legitimate enough question, even if you are a troll (or at least acting like one), but you’ve got two statements of ‘fact’ that I take exception to. Diamonds aren’t rare. There is no real value. I disagree with both of these.

Rarity is discussed in several of the answer above and I suppose it depends on what you mean by the term. Total worldwide diamond production of cutable gem diamonds is currently about 80M carats. That’s about 4000 tons. That’s a decently big number but consider that about 60% of that is lost in the cutting process and about 80% of THAT results in stones below 0.10cts. each. You know, the stones in tennis bracelets and the side stones on a ring. That gives about 5-10M carats per year of what might be conceivably suitable for the typical design of an engagement ring, even a little one. That still seems like a big number but it’s actually pretty scarce. Bear in mind that the world has 5 billion people in it, half of whom are women, and a third or so of those are single adults. That’s a LOT of potential brides. Given that there are a significant number of married women as well as men who are also interested in owning them, and you find that there’s not really all that many to go around.

You mention real value. I presume you mean by that the amount that an unskilled seller can realize on resale compared to what they cost at retail. For many it’s actually less than 50% but, that’s true of nearly everything you buy. It's the nature of a modern economy, not the nature of diamonds. I would call that a silly definition of value but I’m also hard pressed to think of a single product that does better other than possibly real estate and precious metals, both of which have their own problems. Try and sell a piece of electronics, food, clothing, a car, or a piece of furniture and tell me the ‘real value’ is better. Services fare even worse. Is there no value present because you can’t resell dental work, insurance, used theater tickets, or much of any other service you get? Just out of curiosity, what industry are YOU in, and do you deliver ‘real value’ to your customers? Value gets to be defined by the buyer. People buy diamonds because they think that they or a loved one will enjoy them. For the most part it works. People DO enjoy them, especially a lot of brides. They’re pretty durable, they aren’t perishable, obsolescence is usually not an issue, they’re low maintenance, they’re easy to store, they’re easily transferable, and they’re suitable in lots of situations. That’s a decent list of attributes. Are they reasons to buy diamonds? No, not really. Karl answered that one early on. Buy them because they’re kewl.

You know, sometimes I think I have said something fairly well, then Denver Appraiser comes along and says it REALLY well.

Nicely said Neil.

Wink