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Which is warped?

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jswhigham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
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26
Which is warped?
This diamond?:

Gia graded VS2-G 0.74ct round
diameter 5.87 ( 5.86- 5.88 )
crown angle 34.7 deg
crown height 15.3%
pavillion angle 40.4%
pavillion depth 42.4%
culet 1.1%
table 55.4%
total depth 61%
girdle thickness 1.0-1.4
flourescence none
Polish\Symmetry EX\EX

Or DCI?

This is their response to a query about the stone:

Scott,
I hope everything is going well! I received your email asking for a fair price for a .74 carat VS-2, G, Round diamond. If you take Crown Height + Pavilion Depth + Maximum Girdle Thickness, the total should equal to or be off by ½ % to your Total Depth. (15.3 + 42.2 + 1.4 = 59.1%). Because the numbers do not add up, the diamond is slightly warped. A fair price for the diamond is: $1998. Let me know if you have any further questions.
Sincerely,
XXXX XXXXXXXXX
Sales Director / My Gemologist Coordinator
Diamond Cutters International

Is there a problem with this diamond?
I''ve submitted 2 diamonds at different times for their review and each representative said they were warped. Coincidence? Deceptiveness?
Can someone explain the concept of a warped diamond?
I''ve seen threads stating that this is a scam, but I''m not sure if there is any truth to the warped diamond issue.
 

niceice

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
1,792
The only thing that is "warped" is the "help" you are receiving... The sum of the parts will never add up because they are the result of 40 measurements which are averaged and then rounded off to the nearest half a percent or degree... Do a search here on PS for "warped" diamonds and you'll find all sorts of things out about Fred Cuellar and his theories... Then visit New York Diamonds Magazine and run a search on Fred Cuellar and you can read all about how he embezzled a bunch of money from various investors on a rather large diamond fraud a few years ago... What a skunk! Write a book and suddenly you're an expert... Ha!

Get a full version of the Sarin / OGI results showing the "top down" crown and pavilion measurements and you'll be able to figure out if the diamond is "warped" but there is no way to tell just off the basic results which you provided DCI with... See this page on our site for more information on understanding the results http://www.niceice.com/ogi/index.htm we don't think there is a tutorial on the OGI Mega Scope here on Price Scope.
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Wow the diamond scores a .6 on the HCA, EX EX EX VG which is excellent.

Definitely read the many archive posts asking the same questions you are....Fred tells what seems like 99% of people who ask for advice that their diamonds are warped and then tries to score a sale by selling his obviously non-warped stones to consumers grateful for his help.

I think you already know the answer to your question in the way you asked it...but in case you need more info, yes the warped issue is a huge scam. Do the research on the stones and get educated, then you will know for yourself what identifies a well-cut stone and you won't need to rely on Fred to know for sure.
A win win situation!

Good luck!
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
Ditto to Mara and Nice Ice. I can't understand how he can still be in the business!
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
15,308
OK you guys (R&T, Mara and Giangi) you have heard this explanation before, and it took a while to sink in for me too.

But now you are going to understand the problem too.

The girdle of a diamond is a wavy line.


The thinnest part is called the "girdle valley" which is where the labs in USA all measure the girdle thickness (i.e. the thinnest part.)

The thickness at the thickest part is the part where the facet junctions meet. This is where HRD and Russians measure the girdle thickness.

This is also the point from which the crown height and pavilion depth are measured from. It is thicker, correcto? So if you add the girdle thickness at the thickest part, with the crown and pavilion height, then yhat number will add up to the total depth of the diamond. (excepting for rounding and measurement errors).

If any of you regulars do not get this explanation please tell me, as I have just come back from the Lamborgini 40th birthday party


So the only way a diamond can ever add up is if it is an HRD certed stone. Fred has probably made millions of dollars with this simple trick.

In Australia we would lock him up and throw away the key.

What are you guys doing there???

(There are actually 2 thick spots -
1. the main or bezel junctions.
2. the minor or upper girdle lower girdle junction.)

Girdle.jpg
 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
*sigh* Maybe Lawgem could shed some light on why Fred C has not been challenged in court for his tactics. I have no idea what charge he could be brought up on. Perhaps slander/libel in a civil court; but, he doesn't know his intended "victim".

Maybe he has a self made monopoly on non-warped stones.

Who knows.
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
Yeah, the "missing percentage link" that Garry is talking about is usually in the neighborhood of 1.7 to 1.9%. I was so appreciative the first time Garry explained this, as no one else had the answer at the time.

Take the above diamond for example:

15.3% crown height
42.4% pavilion depth
1.4% girdle at thickest valley point
----
59.1%

61.0% total depth
-59.1%
-----
1.9% average distance between "valleys" and "peaks" of girdle

Using Cuellar's method, all diamonds measured by western labs would be "warped".

JS, Cuellar saying this diamond is worth $1998 is a "slam" from a biased source. The diamond is worth quite a bit more than that. If you have a value question, an independent non-involved third party is the best person to ask. You also can run a PriceScope search for comparable stones to get realtime market information.
 

mike04456

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Messages
1,441

----------------
On 7/16/2003 7:42:48 AM fire&ice wrote:
*sigh* Maybe Lawgem could shed some light on why Fred C has not been challenged in court for his tactics. I have no idea what charge he could be brought up on. Perhaps slander/libel in a civil court; but, he doesn't know his intended "victim".

----------------
Well, it depends. Someone would have to complain to the appropriate authorities and follow up on the complaint. The appropriate authorities would be the FTC or the state consumer protection agency wherever he's operating. I believe Fred is in Texas, and unfortunately, during GW's tenure as governor, the Texas Deceptive Trade Practice Act was basically gutted as part of his tort reform platform. The FTC would be the better bet, but they get a lot of complaints as you can probably imagine and don't have the resources to follow up every single one.

This "warped" business strikes me as a deceptive business practice, but I know a lot more about the subject than the FTC does. Cut is such an esoteric subject that this would be a tough fight. The intricacies of Sarin measurements are certainly not addressed specifically by the FTC guidelines for the jewelry industry, which is what the FTC uses to decide whether to bring an enforcement action. So it's anyone's guess what they would do. They've gotten it wrong in the past (e.g., laser drilling).

I think the first step would be to contact the Jeweler's Vigilance Committee, but I happen to know they're highly overworked as well, so you'd need to do a lot of your own legwork assembling supporting documentation beforehand for them to be able to help you.
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Thanks for the explanation Garry...I don't think I had seen that before...it makes more sense now! He is essentially not 'lying' to the consumers about the warping issue, but rather neglects to inform them that if their diamond was graded in the US, which 99% of the time most likely it is, it will ALWAYS be warped and not add up using the special Fredmatics math that none of us were taught in school.

It's very disappointing that here in the US a man such as Fred who has a shady history is able to be lauded as an 'expert' and work for such well-known sites giving advice to unsuspecting consumers such as theknot.com; and be quoted in bridal mags which reach tons of impressionably young bridal minds. Consumers only know what they read (unless they delve deeper), and I have seen Fred quoted many a time as an 'expert' or 'jeweler to the stars' or something similar. He gets extra attention because he sells to celebrities (e.g. Billy Bob wanted him to find a rare asscher or something for one of his gf's). Throw the fact that he wrote a diamond book on top of that, and the fact that each time he is quoted, his url is posted; in every and you have him advising plenty of clueless people looking for stones on the 'warped' calculation he is famous for.

I posted on his site too when I was looking, but about a setting. He was helpful in saying he couldn't help me and sent me his book. I read it all in one day, and it was very interesting...but again...taken with a grain of salt..and I would never give him my business knowing what I know now about his past and his sales tactics. Not impressed.

 

fire&ice

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Messages
7,828
Thanks Lawgem.

I'm not a dealer/jeweler who would have crossed paths. Nor, am I a consumer who could file such complaint.

Maybe someone out there will!!!!!!!
 

jswhigham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
26
Thanks very much for all the responses and technical explanation about "warped"diamonds.
Thanks for confirming my suspicions. CAVEAT EMPTOR.

Btw, I'm purchasing this diamond from Diamond Brokers of Florida. They are an absolute pleasure to work with. Jan must live in front her mail reader, she responded to my incessant emails very promptly.
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,272
Greetings friends,

I have written an article specific to this question. One particular vendor whines or gets upset if I post a link to educational content on our website so could somone kindly post a link to the chapter on "The Girdle" which is the last button under our chapters on cut please? The question is answered with many graphics to demonstrate the point as well and why this advice offered by Fred Cuellar is grossly misleading.

Kind regards,
Rhino
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
9,144
JS Whigham: The only thing in the diamond world that shows signs of being warped IS FRED.
 

jswhigham

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
26
----------------
On 7/18/2003 2:38:21 PM aljdewey wrote:

JS Whigham: The only thing in the diamond world that shows signs of being warped IS FRED.
----------------
Yep, him and his boy wonder Rick.
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,272
LOL!

Thanks for posting the link M. I spent alot of time publishing that because of the frequency of which we get asked this question. One of the major probs is Fred is using max girdle diameter measurement in the valleys.

Peace,
Rhino
 
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