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Which is the better quality stone to purchase?

konamery

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 14, 2016
Messages
31
I’ve been losing my mind for the past couple of days trying to learn as much as I can about purchasing a quality diamond. Can someone please let me know if this is a quality stone for the price? I think I read that strong fluorescence is a bad thing? I found a similar stone with no fluorescence but it has a thick girdle. I am not sure which is the better stone to purchase? And I'm also wondering, if it makes more sense to purchase an i or j stone with strong fluorescence (read that it helps cancel out the yellow) that's higher in carats? I'm so confused. I do want the best quality for my $ but I also like large stones :) don't we all? haha By the way do the measurements for these 1.5 carat stones look about right? I don't want to pay for carats that will be hidden. Thank you!

The stone with strong fluorescence is $7,096 and the one with none is $7,991

_3615.jpeg

_3616.jpeg
 

Glittery_Fix

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Messages
4
Regarding the strong flouro, it's best to have someone in person evaluate for any ill effects of the flouro. Regarding if these are well cut or not, we would need to see more numbers. Girdle thickness is fine for both of them. Face up is okay, but some of the stones of the same size under 62 degrees would face up a tiny bit bigger.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Not enough information.

We need the angles on each of the stones. Please list for each stone:

Table:
Depth:
Crown Angle:
Pavilion Angle:
 

konamery

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 14, 2016
Messages
31
I tried getting that information but these stones are from blue nile and they only provide table and depth :/
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
No. No they don't. They link to all the lab reports. You click on the lab report for the stone. On the lab report there is a diagram. And the crown and pavilion angles are listed right there.
 

konamery

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 14, 2016
Messages
31
Wow all this time I've been looking at the site with my phone and I had no idea I could see the GIA report. Thank you so much! Here are the reports for 4 stones. Which stone would be the smartest to purchase? Thanks again.

Stone 1 - $7,096
Stone 2 - $7,991
Stone 3 - $7,328
Stone 4 - $7,409
 

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Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
None of them. None of them are worth buying. First of all, most Si2 are not eyeclean. You need images. So shopping on Blue Nile for an Si2 is just a waste of time.

You want to stay within the following stats at Blue Nile. (Also, sticking to Signature stones is best at Blue Nile, they are guaranteed eyeclean, you can get an image of the stone, and they have G-Cal reports).

Table: Less than 60
Depth: 59-62.5
Crown Angle: 33.5-35
Pavilion Angle: 40.6-40.9

AND (IN ADDITION to those specs NOT instead of) it must pass the HCA which is a PASS/FAIL test. Any score under 2 is equal to any other and is a pass: https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

So.
1. Stick to Signature stones.
2. Stick within the stats above.
3. Make sure it passes HCA.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
I edited the above. Please review.
 

konamery

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 14, 2016
Messages
31
Ok I searched for new stones trying to fit that criteria and budget.

This first 1.31 carat stone passed the HCA with a 0.9 it is $7,958
Factor - Grade
Light Return - Excellent
Fire - Excellent
Scintillation - Excellent
Spread or diameter for weight - Very Good

The second stone is 1.5 carat and passed with a 1.8 although it was a SI2? it is $7,913
Factor - Grade
Light Return - Very Good
Fire - Excellent
Scintillation - Very Good
Spread or diameter for weight - Very Good

Would it be absolutely stupid of me to sacrifice the SI1 clarity in order to get a bigger stone that is SI2 even though it passed HCA with a 1.8?

Thanks again.
 

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Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Okay so, you aren't getting it completely. It's a lot I know. So here you go:

1. Stone 1 does have good numbers. But it has a mass of inclusions on the plot right in the center of the stone. Not all Si1's are eyeclean. It's about 50/50. So is that a Signature Stone like I said? Because if it's not, I doubt its eyeclean. You need to ask Blue Nile for a picture.

2. It does not meet specs. If you look above at the crown angle requirements you'll see that the crown angle must be between 33.5-35.

The HCA alone is not enough.

Why are you so stuck on Blue Nile?
 

konamery

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 14, 2016
Messages
31
I will be looking into other websites and local jewelers as well. I began my search with Blue Nile because apparently my fiance knows someone who can give us a good deal on a stone. I haven't verified exactly how much of a "deal" it will be or if this person even has the ability to do that. Once I find out I will go from there. I was just trying to find the best out of all the stones I posted because if we do get a good discount, I would end up purchasing from Blue Nile. By the way this leads me to another question. Is there a general markup % that jewelers follow on stones? Do you know in general how much the 1.31 carat stone would cost the jeweler if it was retailed for $7,958? I don't want to think he's giving us a great discount when he isn't.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198

konamery

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 14, 2016
Messages
31
So I'm noticing from the links you sent that having a better cut and clarity is more important than the color? I never thought to search for J and I because I read that they would show as yellow? I guess not. Need to do new searches :)
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
I've been helping find diamonds on here for 10 years. I answer about 10-15 posts a day. In all that time, I've seen exactly 4 people get truly great deals from friends. In contrast, I see someone being taken for a hike by a 'friend' jeweler about twice a month.

Beating Blue Nile's prices isn't too hard for a good jeweler. Wink at HPD can do it on many stones. And he'll provide you with an idealscope image. Which is what you really want.

Margins vary. Most jewelers have a less than 15% mark up on loose stones. And you are right, it is unlikely that your friend will be able to give you a truly great deal. Finished jewelry has a higher markup, in contrast.

You can use the https://www.pricescope.com/diamond-search-results diamond search to find stones that match the specs (make sure the angles are similar, the color and clarity, and the lab report as well as the other items (polish, cut, symmetry) and fluorescence are all the same). To see what stones with the specs your 'friend' finds you costs so you can see how much of a 'deal' they are really getting you.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
konamery|1463290855|4031870 said:
So I'm noticing from the links you sent that having a better cut and clarity is more important than the color? I never thought to search for J and I because I read that they would show as yellow? I guess not. Need to do new searches :)

Please spend some time to study (not just read) the below.

Round Diamonds 101:

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. With round diamonds even a GIA triple Excellent is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only (HPD in Europe is good as well). EGL is a bad option: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones generally, though you can. In general, AGS0 trumps HCA though as one examines the actual stone and the other does not.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.

So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD,BE, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.

Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium. Some AGS0's are better than others though, so pay attention to any ASET or IS provided.

In general with rounds, you will want a table 60% or less. A depth between 59 and 62.3. Crown angle 33.5-35. Pavilion Angle: 40.6-40.9 (there is a little tiny bit of give on this. Because of GIA rounding you can sometimes go to 41 on GIA stones with crown angles near the 34 range). And the crown and pavilion angles must be complimentary which is what the HCA checks for you.

ON COLOR:

It is important to remember is that color is graded FACE DOWN. Where there is NO light return. Not face up where there is light return and refraction. You wear diamonds set. FACE UP.

Within one color grade, even the labs can't agree on the color grades of stones and something could be a "high" H or a "low" E. So... no. Not really. Within 2 color grades it is hard. Not impossible. But very hard. And it gets harder once set. If you are talking ideal rounds, or any stone with ideal light return and no sharp corners it gets harder still because the ideal light return masks body color.

Generally we say to be conservative stay above H in a round. But MANY people have happily bought white I or even J diamonds when trying to eek out a little more size.

This is how I think of it.

Ever gotten one of those HUGE paint fan decks? Where there are literally 100s of colors of whites? And when they are RIGHT next to each other you can TOTALLY tell that one is bluer/colder and one is a bit warmer and which one is one is TOTALLY warmer. One there's one that's slightly greener. One that's slightly pinker? But really. They are all white?

Then you pick one after agonizing over this white or that white and when it's on the walls and people are like: Oh. You painted again. And it's STILL white. Great.

And you're all... BUT it's BLUE white. Or it's a WARM white now. It used to be ____ white. It's TOTALLY different.

It's like that. You are talking about shades of white. D is colder... J is warmer. But it's all white.

YES. If you have an accurately graded F and an H THAT HAVE THE SAME PERFORMANCE you are going to be able to tell them apart when you compare them. Just like you would be able to tell if you painted your walls a warm white, but painted the crown molding a cold/straight white. But both are STILL white.


I want you notice all the qualifiers thought. I'm talking about stones with the SAME performance. An ideal H will out white an F that has compromised light performance from a poor cut.

NOTHING impacts the appearance of a diamond as much as cut. CUT is king.

You want the shinest whitest and brightest diamond out there: Cut is King. No other factor, not color or clarity or anything else impacts how white bright an shiny a stone is.

ON CLARITY:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/SI/ and http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Clarity/VS/ Generally we say that eyeclean SI1 and VS2 are as high as you need to go with round brilliants, have your vendor check the diamond for this. VS1 will always be eyeclean, but they do cost more and an eyeclean SI1 and a VS1 will look the same to the unaided eye.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Some people think stones with Medium/Strong/Very Strong Fluorescence do have a lightening effect on the tint of lower colored stones.

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-flourescence Here's an article on Fluorescence.

I just like fluorescence because I think it's awesome and it lowers the price on stones (at least medium for that) nicely.

That is a truly nice stone you picked. And WF has some nice settings too.

Do you have a hearts on fire retailer near you? If you do, call them and tell them you are interested in checking out 1 carat stones in H-I-J colors. Then go and see them. Those are super-ideals like the WF ACA stones are. And you will be able to see for yourself what the colors look like in stones of that caliber.

Leave your wallet at home though, we call them Wallets on Fire for a reason. 8)
 

konamery

Rough_Rock
Joined
May 14, 2016
Messages
31
Is an SI1 stone rarely eye clean? What if all other stats are excellent including a signature cut? I see flaws in the diagram on every single GIA report even the VS1 VS2 so I'm a little confused. Will I not be able to see those flaws without magnification if its a VS1 or VS2 clarity? But I will see them if its SI1? Sorry for all the questions.
 
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