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tcc23

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 8, 2003
Messages
7
Hi everyone, new to this forum and very impressed with the expert advise. So, I thought I would throw out a couple of questions.

OK, so I think I might have narrowed my search down to 2 Round diamonds and would like your input. The diamond information is:

diamond 1 (Round)
cut - ideal
clarity - Si1
color - G
carat - 1.73
depth - 62.8
table - 58
Girdle - medium
Polish/Sym - very good
cert - EGL
price - $9,000
one inclusion that can be covered by a prong

Diamond 2 (Round)
cut - ideal
clarity - Si1
color - H
carat - 1.61
depth - 62.9
table - 59
Girdle - medium
Polish/Sym - very good
cert - EGL
price - $7,700
has an inclusion that can''t be covered by a prong

So, I have a couple of questions ...

1. Are the prices for these diamonds good, great, execellent, what are you waiting for?
2. Which one?
I looked at both diamonds next to each other and could tell the color difference, but of course when they are apart, there is no difference to me. The setting will be platinum.
3. If the prices are good, is there really a $1300 difference? Is it worth spending the extra money?


Your input is greatly appreciated. Thank you so much.

-tc
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
Hi!

The cut ISN'T ideal on both stones... Tables are too large for an AGS ideal cut... Also, polish and symmetry are v.good and not excellent, so once again these aren't ideal.

The stones are both a bit deep --they'll face up a bit small for their weight and could possibly be a steep/deep combination... Can you give us the %'s listed on the reports?

From the data you posted, they seem to be EGL Israel graded. This is a RED flag to me. They're very lenient. I don't want you to buy a stone which is supposed to be G-H SI 1, but actually is I-I 1... Also, another HUGE RED FLAG is your statement ''I looked at both diamonds next to each other and could tell the color difference''... Now, there are two possibilities: a) you've got GREAT vision and could work at GIA
b) one stone is misgraded (and if the lab is EGL israel, this is very likely to be the right explanation). It's very difficult for an untrained eye to discern the very slight difference between G and H.

Let me know if I am right about the lab and please tell us the %es (or possibly a Sarin or OGI report).
 

tcc23

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 8, 2003
Messages
7
Hi, thanks for your response. Not sure what you are referring to on the percentages. I have been working with a diamond wholesaler on this. So, I can definitely call ask any questions. What additional information should I ask this guy? Also, on the color, the "G" color diamond seemed "whiter" to me. Should I not be able to see this difference? B/C there is no way my eyesight is that great
Thanks again!!!
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
Well, it's difficult to discern a one grade difference, and being the reports issued by EGL, this worries me a bit.

Ask the vendor a fax of the certs and, if possible, an OGI or Sarin report.


Best of Luck!
 

tcc23

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 8, 2003
Messages
7
OK, so I was able to get the % on these 2 diamonds.

For the 1.73 carat
Crown Angle: 14%
Pavillion Angle: 44%
Culet: none

For the 1.6 carat
Crown Angle: 13%
Pavillion Angle: 44%
Culet: none

So, based on this information, what are your opinions of these stones and price for each stone? Also, what are the % that I need to stay within if wanting a Ideal cut?

Thanks in advance!!!
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
These are quite far from ideal. An AGS ideal stone should have a 33.7-35.8' crown angle, which translates approximately to a 14.4% to 16.2% crown. Try to use angles, not percentages. Pavilion should be 42.2% to 43.8%, girdle thin, medium or slightly thick.

I remember you saying that ya could discern a color difference... That makes me think that one stone, the H-color one, could easily be overgraded. Now, if your stones are truly G and H color and SI 1 is one thing, but what if they're H and J color, SI 2 or I 1 clarity??
A fair price would be about 7-9K each stone, so since you're buying locally (am I wrong??), your price is definitely good!
 

tcc23

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 8, 2003
Messages
7
Thanks Giangi!!!!

I went back and looked at the 1.73 stone. The stone looks great, but I am concerned about results when ran on the HCA. Everything came back as "good" My budget is $9K, which the stone is selling for, but am I getting a great deal here? Should I continue to look? I orginally thought I was getting a deal, unit you brought it to my attention, that this diamond was not ideal and the results from the HCA test.

So, needless to say ... very confused!Appreciate any advice or tips on what I should explore next.

Thanks,
tc
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
With such a budget, you can get a much better stone!

Look at these:

(all Hearts and Arrows, A Cut Above branded diamonds available at whiteflash.com)
1.020 E VS2 60.5 57 AGS $8,050.00 View
1.007 G VVS2 60.6 56 AGS $8,085.00 View
1.107 D SI1 61.3 54 AGS $8,200.00 View
1.137 D SI1 60.7 55 AGS $8,305.50 View
1.002 G VVS1 60.2 57 AGS $8,400.00 View
1.060 F VS1 61.3 57 AGS $8,682.00 View
1.110 E VS2 60.8 55 AGS $8,740.00 View
1.094 D VS2 61.2 54 AGS $9,047.00 View
1.007 D VS1 61.1 55 AGS $9,135.00 View
1.010 E VVS2 60.7 56 AGS $9,226.00 View
1.013 F VVS1 60.7 56 AGS $9,332.00 View
1.536 I SI1 60.9 55 AGS $9,639.00 View
1.137 E VS1 60.4 57 AGS $9,729.00 View
1.584 I SI1 60.6 55 AGS $9,954.00 View

Or these:
(also H&A, form superbcert.com)
1295
This 1.10-Carat, F Color VS2 clarity SuperbCertTM Round diamond comes accompanied by a GIA grading report.
Price: $7,524.00
1171
This 1.01-Carat, G Color VVS1 clarity SuperbCertTM Round diamond comes accompanied by a GIA grading report.
Price: $7,676.00
1379
This 1.06-Carat, G Color VVS2 clarity SuperbCertTM Round diamond comes accompanied by a GIA grading report.
Price: $7,754.00
1334
This 1.05-Carat, F Color VS1 clarity SuperbCertTM Round diamond comes accompanied by a GIA grading report.
Price: $7,780.00
1499
This 1.08-Carat, E Color VS2 clarity SuperbCertTM Round diamond comes accompanied by a GIA grading report.
Price: $7,857.00
1123
This 1.17-Carat, G Color VS1 clarity SuperbCertTM Round diamond comes accompanied by a GIA grading report.
Price: $8,073.00
1782
This 1.06-Carat, E Color VS1 clarity SuperbCertTM Round diamond comes accompanied by a GIA grading report.
Price: $8,257.40
1119
This 1.06-Carat, F Color VVS2 clarity SuperbCertTM Round diamond comes accompanied by a GIA grading report.
Price: $8,480.00
1164
This 1.15-Carat, E Color VS1 clarity SuperbCertTM Round diamond comes accompanied by a GIA grading report.
Price: $8,958.00
1145
This 1.66-Carat, J Color VVS2 clarity SuperbCertTM Round diamond comes accompanied by a GIA grading report.
Price: $9,263.00
1243
This 1.21-Carat, G Color VVS1 clarity SuperbCertTM Round diamond comes accompanied by a GIA grading report.
Price: $9,390.00
1144
This 1.52-Carat, I Color VS2 clarity SuperbCertTM Round diamond comes accompanied by a GIA grading report.
Price: $9,424.00

Have fun! There are lots, lots of diamonds out there...
 

phoenixgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 20, 2003
Messages
3,369

tcc23

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 8, 2003
Messages
7
So, everyone says to stay away from EGL if possible ... and I want to know how they can grade a diamond to be ideal if the numbers are not ideal?

Also, so with this particular diamond that is currently picked out, am I not going to get the sparkle and brillance out of it b/c of the crown and pavillion angles? Will this be noticable compared to one of the 1.5 carat diamonds mentioned? If I was to set this diamond next to a diamond with all the correct "ideal" numbers, would I see a difference?


Thank you!!!
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
Yes, you'd see a difference between the stone you poted and the ones we posted.
Also, I guess that EGL wouldn't be so popular if it were much stricter... Especially about Excellent ideal cut, tolkowsky ideal cut and premium cut...
 

phoenixgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 20, 2003
Messages
3,369
The reason that AGS and GIA certed diamonds are more expensive is because the other labs tend to be lenient on color and clarity (and perhaps even cut, as you point out) gradings. What seems like a good deal for a F VS1 would probably not be a good deal for a G VS2. With AGS and GIA you're certain that you're getting what the cert says -- it may even be on the conservative side.

Yes, cut will make a big difference. In addition, both of the diamonds you picked out have a total depth of around 63%. The diameter will therefore be smaller than a diamond of the same carat size with a total depth of 60-62%, which is usually a better range for the overall cut anyway. If you are going to sacrifice cut for size, you might as well try to get a total depth of 59-60% to maximize the "spread." Do you know the diameter of the stones you are considering?

Can you ask them to show you their best cut diamonds at the store? A brand name that is commonly carried in local stores if "Hearts on Fire" -- while these are fairly expensive (more so than the diamonds with the same patterns that you could buy online), at least you'll be able to tell if the cut is that important to you.

I guess the point is -- have you looked at other stores? It doesn't seem like having a choice of 2 stones is all that ideal.

However, if you are set on these two stones, ask them to send them to the GIA for grading. If they refuse, offer to pay the costs if they are graded as the EGL said. For a 1.73 G SI1 non-ideal stone, that is a very, very good price (too good, methinks). For an H SI2 1.73 stone, that is not such a great price.

Again, for a 1.61 H SI1 that is a very good price. For an I SI2, it is not. By the way, you cannot sue them for being one grade off as suggested -- since grading is subjective, that is acceptable (which is probably why EGL tends to be off -- make the sale, and even if it grades lower the customer can't do anything). And let's hope we're only talking about one grade off!

Who said these stones were ideal, the people at the store or the EGL certs themselves?
 

tcc23

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 8, 2003
Messages
7
Makes sense. I guess one thing I might need to do is compare multiple diamonds with "G" in color?

The EGL certificate actually states the cut is ideal. This is what bothers me. Can a diamond be Ideal even without the correct numbers for angles?

The guy I am working with has been very helpful and has been honest with me. He showed me a GIA diamond 1.2 D Ideal but Si1. The inclusions were noticable. Virtually same price, so when I was looking at them, I prefered the 1.73 b/c I couldn't see the inclusions. As for the 1.73, the inclusion is on the edge and will be covered by a prong, so almost like i am getting a vs for the money?
 
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