when did IGI become acceptable?

[proto]

so its been 8 years since I nerded out on diamonds and a lot of things have changed.

lab diamonds are now extremely discounted vs natural. before there was a discount but it wasnt huge. it is now huge.

cool beans for me.

also a bunch of places started stocking lab diamonds whereas before they wouldnt.

again cool beans for me.

However the vast majority of these lab diamonds are graded by IGI.

Why are people buying these? Last time i checked, an IGI graded stone may as well be graded in house. GIA/AGS or gtfo. personal opinion perhaps but i thought a fairly common one.

So far only found one vendor that sells lab diamonds cutr to a standard I would like that is graded by GIA. If there are others, would behappy to hear about them from ppl.

 

[sd_flp]

Why are people buying these? Last time i checked, an IGI graded stone may as well be graded in house. GIA/AGS or gtfo. personal opinion perhaps but i thought a fairly common one.

Just speculation, but it probably has to do with the fact that IGI was the only major lab at the time to grade lab diamonds and the (low) costs of lab diamonds compared to earth mined were enough for consumers to buy them regardless of lab grading them. The first time I knew GIA was grading lab diamonds was through here earlier this year, so it must have been really recent.

I think IGI’s grading as improved or at least isn’t as soft as it was years ago. Obviously they’re not perfect as some have had issues with their color/clarity grading and IGI doesn’t have the prestige of GIA or GCAL, but I haven’t had any concerns with the two LGDs I have that are graded by IGI. My current ering diamond is a color D and I got it checked by my jeweler and she thought it was accurate and showed me her earth mined F and G diamonds in her stock. I went with a D and E for my labs because I was worried about getting a much lower color grade if I went for a G or H. After seeing the direct comparisons from her I wouldn’t hesitate getting another IGI graded diamond and wouldn’t think twice about getting a G or lower colored stone.

 

[DejaWiz]

For LGD, I feel that the grading lab used isn't as critical as it is for EGD, as long as it is one of three labs: IGI, GIA, or GCAL.
...and AGS if one is specifically shopping for an LGD graded by AGS, but they are extremely hard to find especially now that AGSL was absorbed by GIA.

The key factor is knowing what to look for in and of the diamond, itself...the proportions and angles, the symmetry precision, the optics: no different than shopping EGD.

IGI is perfectly fine for most of today's LGD shoppers because of the wide price differences between comparable EGD and LGD, and we can approach LGD without a primary concern for grading pedigree and provenance: we just focus hard on the quality of the LGD material, overall cut precision, and optical performance.

Of course, all that to say that if GIA or GCAL 8X is desired by someone shopping for an LGD, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all!

 

[distracts]

Everything I've ever seen where lab diamonds were double submitted to IGI and GIA, the grades were pretty equivalent. Either IGI grades their lab diamonds more strongly, or GIA grades them more softly. I will try to look up the links where I read about this later today but they were convincing enough for me to not mind IGI for lab diamonds, though I still would be skeptical for a natural one.

 

[Kim N]

Everything I've ever seen where lab diamonds were double submitted to IGI and GIA, the grades were pretty equivalent. Either IGI grades their lab diamonds more strongly, or GIA grades them more softly. I will try to look up the links where I read about this later today but they were convincing enough for me to not mind IGI for lab diamonds, though I still would be skeptical for a natural one.

ADA Diamonds dual-graded a small sample of diamonds at IGI/GCAL vs. AGS.

Results of AGS Graded Lab Diamonds vs. IGI & GCAL

We were invited to participate in the pilot phase of AGS's return to grading lab diamonds, and we have the results back from our first few batches graded by AGS. Most of the stones we sent were previously graded by IGI or GCAL so I am sharing the results with the community to address the...

www.pricescope.com

 

[proto]

The TLDR is that the community has changed their mind on IGI because of a "not a sales post" by the CEO of AGA diamonds, who sells lab diamonds? This is wild to me, but again, havent peeked into diamond updates for years and years.

 

[Kim N]

The TLDR is that the community has changed their mind on IGI because of a "not a sales post" by the CEO of AGA diamonds, who sells lab diamonds? This is wild to me, but again, havent peeked into diamond updates for years and years.

Not at all. Not to mention, that small sampling is hardly a large enough sample size to be conclusive.

I personally changed my mind because IGI is the dominant lab for lab-grown, so if I were to disregard all IGI diamonds, the pool would be considerably smaller. GIA has also gotten worse for lab diamonds in that many of their reports no longer state the growth method.

 

[DejaWiz]

GIA has also gotten worse for lab diamonds in that many of their reports no longer state the growth method.

Kim, you bring up an excellent point...and this shift has really started to perturb me lately.
GIA claims to be the foremost expert diamond grading lab on earth that touts consumer protection, but them pulls this crap which is clearly throwing a huge bone to the LGD growers.
After all, what good are the GIA grading reports if I don't even know the fundamental morphological details about the diamonds being presented, from a buyer's perspective?
All we get is a generic comment "This is a Man Made Diamond"...well no s#!t, Sherlock!

 

[distracts]

Kim, you bring up an excellent point...and this shift has really started to perturb me lately.
GIA claims to be the foremost expert diamond grading lab on earth that touts consumer protection, but them pulls this crap which is clearly throwing a huge bone to the LGD growers.
After all, what good are the GIA grading reports if I don't even know the fundamental morphological details about the diamonds being presented, from a buyer's perspective?
All we get is a generic comment "This is a Man Made Diamond"...well no s#!t, Sherlock!

That the reports also don't state color tone is also aggravating, since it's so predominant in so many lab diamonds. That they don't mention phosphorescence is also an extreme oversight.

 

[distracts]

Here is another post by the same person -

https://www.reddit.com/r/Diamonds/comments/jkgczm

But then this guy says they're between 1-3 color grades looser, but provides no data to back it up:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Diamonds/comments/q927d1/_/hgxboz6

The TLDR is that the community has changed their mind on IGI because of a "not a sales post" by the CEO of AGA diamonds, who sells lab diamonds? This is wild to me, but again, havent peeked into diamond updates for years and years.

Well we're at the mercy of whoever happens to dual submit stones, aren't we, unless we're going to do it ourselves. Plus for lab diamonds the amount of money involved is trivial enough so that I'm not fussed about the difference between an F and an H, honestly. That might be $200 cost difference or something, and if I get the diamond in and find the color unacceptable, I can return. It's the things that none of the reports cover that bother me a lot more.

I should also point out that a lot of our info about the other labs also came from vendors who double-certed diamonds, or the CBIs which were triple-certed.

 

[Karl_K]

Here is another comparison of igi and gia duel certed diamonds:

Comparing Diamond Certification Labs – GIA vs. IGI Grading and Prices – Diamond Screener

www.diamondscreener.com

 

[proto]

Can they ban igi next please?

from https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/rapnet-bans-egl-reports-from-trading-network.205934/

So am guessing there have been some changes to your view over the years or is this just like FYI more data points?

 

[distracts]

from https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/rapnet-bans-egl-reports-from-trading-network.205934/

So am guessing there have been some changes to your view over the years or is this just like FYI more data points?

I think - and I think many of us think - that there are very real differences between how labs grade lab-grown and natural diamonds. Labs are chosen for different reasons and have market pressures on them for various reasons that can cause them to behave in different ways for the different markets.

There can also be differences in the course of a decade in a lab's own standards. GIA has definitely slipped over the years, IMO. When I first joined Pricescope, eye-clean SI2s were common, but now they're basically impossible to find. I know people who have submitted diamonds for re-grading before a sale and gotten 1-2 color grades higher from GIA than their original GIA report from 15 years ago, and this has happened to enough people I know that I think it's not just coincidence. I haven't seen a larger study on this but I'd certainly be interested in it. CBI's triple grading certainly showed that AGS and GCAL tended to be stricter than GIA on clarity generally.

 

[Karl_K]

from https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/rapnet-bans-egl-reports-from-trading-network.205934/

So am guessing there have been some changes to your view over the years or is this just like FYI more data points?

My problem with IGI was the IGI USA valuation reports.
I am still not a huge fan of those reports.
I have grown to have much more respect for the IGI loose diamond reports.
So yes my overall opinion of IGI has changed.
Since GIA gobbled up AGSL the need for competition in the grading space is needed more now than ever.
I have high hopes that IGI will rise to the challenge.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

There is no doubt GIA were caught snoozing by IGI.
IGI charge less and offer a much faster grading time than GIA.
It does appear that GIA have stopped identifying growth method.
Some might say that is to speed up the process. and or enable cost reduction?
Others might say that they will get more business from grown diamonds that have had post treatments to improve or change the color?
I lean toward the latter option, and as in so many instances related to diamond grading, I question if GIA is true to its mission and values statements?

Mission & Governance

GIA's mission is to ensure the public trust. Institute leadership includes a board of governors, executive staff, and directors of laboratories and campuses worldwide.

www.gia.edu

 

[yssie]

This forum has also changed a lot in personality over the last several years.

Back in those old days many participants tended toward much more black and white perspectives. Cut evaluation was emerging, scanning technologies were improving, the idea of buying a diamond over the internet was in its infancy, and even marginally-related questions often evoked “us vs. them, pick a side” undertones.

That’s all different now. Buying online is the norm. The #CutFight warlords have largely made peace with each other. The new disruptor is of course MMD… And lots of those old conversations that used to yield strong opinions just don’t anymore - that fervor is aimed at newer topics.

Changes in the industry, changes in the labs themselves, changes in forum tone, changes in participants’ priorities. Lots of changes. Change happens. I appreciate modern PS’ willingness to exploring nuance.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

This forum has also changed a lot in personality over the last several years.

Back in those old days many participants tended toward much more black and white perspectives. Cut evaluation was emerging, scanning technologies were improving, the idea of buying a diamond over the internet was in its infancy, and even marginally-related questions often evoked “us vs. them, pick a side” undertones.

That’s all different now. Buying online is the norm. The #CutFight warlords have largely made peace with each other. The new disruptor is of course MMD… And lots of those old conversations that used to yield strong opinions just don’t anymore - that fervor is aimed at newer topics.

Changes in the industry, changes in the labs themselves, changes in forum tone, changes in participants’ priorities. Lots of changes. Change happens.

Hi Yssie, Hate to disagree (actually I luv it).
a lot is still the same!
And here I am at Whistler, where a lab survey was first conceived, nearly 2o years ago!
At the time we found that the market priced even EGL very softly graded diamonds cheaper than the exact same diamond with AGS or GIA certs.

Diamond Grading Lab Survey

Hi guys, we finally published the results of Grading Lab Survey, which was solely funded by Pricescope. That was quite a bit of work Garry Holloway and I decided to run this survey while skiing together in Whistler last March. It seemed so easy back then when we discussed in while sitting in...

www.pricescope.com

At the time

 

[Wink]

For many years, I was one of those who disparaged IGI. John Pollard always chastised me for doing so, explaining they are highly respected in Europe and Asia. I think part of the reason I, and others, did not respect IGI, is they landed in this country in the same year as EGL did. IGI went into jewelry grading because GIA had a loose diamond grading monopoly. EGL went into loose grading here by infamously over-grading, which destroyed their reputation.

A lot of jewelers, myself included, just equated the two European Labs as being equally bad without doing any independent research into them. I can tell you warnings about EGL and IGI tended to get copied and pasted. Shame on many of us for not looking harder into the reality.

For some years now, we have been seeing IGI reports on Lab Grown loose diamonds and more and more on Earth Grown Diamonds. Based on what I am seeing, It turns out, I should have listened to John much sooner.

He has spoken about their global reputation, which is quite strong. Here’s a good description from 2019.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/igi-certification.246325/#post-4483869

He is now working for IGI, in charge of their 14 schools of gemology.

 

[Rons Wolfe]

This forum has also changed a lot in personality over the last several years.

Back in those old days many participants tended toward much more black and white perspectives. Cut evaluation was emerging, scanning technologies were improving, the idea of buying a diamond over the internet was in its infancy, and even marginally-related questions often evoked “us vs. them, pick a side” undertones.

That’s all different now. Buying online is the norm. The #CutFight warlords have largely made peace with each other. The new disruptor is of course MMD… And lots of those old conversations that used to yield strong opinions just don’t anymore - that fervor is aimed at newer topics.

Changes in the industry, changes in the labs themselves, changes in forum tone, changes in participants’ priorities. Lots of changes. Change happens. I appreciate modern PS’ willingness to exploring nuance.

Changes in latitude
Changes in attitude
Nothing remains quite the same...

 

[molecule]

I think with EG, the cost of misunderstanding the color or clarity of a 1ct diamond can easily change the value by 1k, so the strictness of the grading was absolutely critical. Meanwhile, with LG, folks may order 2-3, judge by eye what they like better and pick. If the grading isn't quite accurate then the value MIGHT change by 100$.

 

[dk168]

My first LGD purchase was for a small pair of 5 x pears cluster earrings from Ouros on Etsy back in September 2020.

I remembered at the time that larger stones that came with certificates were certified by IGI with no mention/option for the likes of GIA for example.

I believe IGI was first past the post to start certifying LGD, for the others to catch up to grab a slice of the market share now that LGD is more acceptable as an alternative to earth-mined stones.

DK

 

[Rons Wolfe]

For many years, I was one of those who disparaged IGI. John Pollard always chastised me for doing so, explaining they are highly respected in Europe and Asia. I think part of the reason I, and others, did not respect IGI, is they landed in this country in the same year as EGL did. IGI went into jewelry grading because GIA had a loose diamond grading monopoly. EGL went into loose grading here by infamously over-grading, which destroyed their reputation.

A lot of jewelers, myself included, just equated the two European Labs as being equally bad without doing any independent research into them. I can tell you warnings about EGL and IGI tended to get copied and pasted. Shame on many of us for not looking harder into the reality.

For some years now, we have been seeing IGI reports on Lab Grown loose diamonds and more and more on Earth Grown Diamonds. Based on what I am seeing, It turns out, I should have listened to John much sooner.

He has spoken about their global reputation, which is quite strong. Here’s a good description from 2019.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/igi-certification.246325/#post-4483869

He is now working for IGI, in charge of their 14 schools of gemology.

Did EGL ever get their head out of their 4 point of contact? Or do they still overgrade?

 

[Inked]

I personally bought an IGI graded lab, it was color G clarity VS2
I had it recut and sent to GIA and it came back color F clarity VS1

I could say perhaps the recut changed the clarity if the cut eliminated the inclusion, but the color is the color. GIA graded it softer than IGI did. The joke was on me too because i wanted an H so i bought the IGI G thinking it would come back as an H

It is possible to realize IGI has just improved, businesses can respond to feedback and actually get better. Or, just I think IGI was more forward thinking and grabbed the opportunity with lab diamonds when GIA was being more resistant. Competition created improvement.

I agree with @Kim N that for earth mined I still think GIA is more trusted but for labs IGI actually may have the edge

 

[Wink]

still think GIA is more trusted but for labs IGI actually may have the edge

What makes you think they won’t make inroads into the natural market too? Once they have proven they are as accurate, faster and less expensive than GIA, what would stop them from taking market share?

I may be nuts, but I say never under estimate the John Pollard effect.

 

[Inked]

What makes you think they won’t make inroads into the natural market too? Once they have proven they are as accurate, faster and less expensive than GIA, what would stop them from taking market share?

I may be nuts, but I say never under estimate the John Pollard effect.

LOL! Very true!!