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What''s the deal with H&A and AGS0 diamonds?

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Lugus

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 17, 2003
Messages
213
So I''ve already determined that I wanted the highest quality cut. I looked at the Leo Diamond from Kay and it just seemed to shrine different. Side by side next to another higher rated dimond, the Leo did look nicer. However, something just didn''t seem right with it. My guess is that adding the extra facets make the sparkles a bit smaller all the way around, and my *cough* *cough* "expert" eye picked up on it.

My question is this: Is a hearts and arrows diamond simply a normal diamond that is within certain, ideal proportions, or is it cut differently with more facets. Same question for the AGS0.

Also, is an AGS0 = AGS000?

How much more of a premium do I pay for these types of stones?

Now the opinion part, what do you guys like better between H&A and normal cut diamonds? Is there a difference in the way they sparkle? Better? Worse? Odd, like the leo?
 

justme

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
184
A H&A is a 'normal' diamond. To see how they are achieved through the cutting of the diamond see this https://www.pricescope.com/hearts_form.asp. Both a H&A & AGS0 diamond are cut with standard number of facets.

AGS0 is a diamond graded by AGS (American Gem Society) that is within their standard of an ideal cut rating.

AGS000 graded diamond means that the diamond has been graded a '0' for cut(ideal),'0' for Color(D),and '0' for clarity(IF).

Alot of people use AGS000 to indicate the diamond is a '0' for cut, '0' for polish and '0' for symmetry.

I'm not sure (consumer not in the trade) that you pay a premium for an AGS0 diamond over any other certed ideal cut diamond, but you most certainly would pay a premium for a true AGS000.

Have you read through the diamond tutorial here on pricescope? If not - it really explains alot of what you are asking about. Also, this sight http://www.goodoldgold.com/ultimate.htm is very good for educating yourself about diamonds.

As for your opinion part-truly this is WAY subjective and determined only by your tastes in the end. But for me I wanted an AGS0 cut with H&A (optical symmetry) also.

Branded diamonds that I looked at were at too much of a premium for the same eye appeal. 35% more for the brand but definitely not 35% more eye appeal in my opinion.
 

barry

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2001
Messages
441
More facets does not result in more Brilliance,
Fire, and Scintilation. Leo's are cut with
deeper pavillions somewhat minimizing light refraction.

The AGS scale for "0" Cut grade is quite broad. Therefore
diamonds falling at either end of the AGS continuum
scale will not show maximum light output.
You can have AGS-0 that have the same cut parameters but will perform quite differently on the BrillianceScope
and differentiate on the Imagescope.

Angle degree, facet size and facet placement
are critical in determining the amount of light coming
out of the diamond. Light output is extremely sensitive to
the slightest variation in any of these components
in Round Brilliants and even more so in Fancy Cuts
such as the Princess Cut.

Barry
superbcert.com
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
As Barry mentions, the AGS0 range is pretty broad which is very interesting. I have run some #'s through the HCA before on stones with AGS000 ratings (in this instance meaning 0 for cut, 0 for polish, 0 for symm) and have come up with scores over 2.0 meaning not really the BEST diamond for fire, scintillation, brilliance. This showed me I couldn't depend on the AGS000 scoring to guarantee me a nice stone.

You can get diamonds that are both AGS000 and H&A, if you want to cover both bases. Find one of those that will score nicely on the HCA and you probably have a winner.

Even if you are still considering purchasing offline, I highly suggest you view the diamonds for sale at GoodOldGold and VirtCert.Com for their reports, NiceIce has reports as well. The reason I say this is because you really begin to get an idea of the differences between one stone and another when you view their virtual brilliance reports and/or their sarin/megascope readings. The BrillanceScope viewings will show you simulations of what the diamond looks like in different lighting conditions, and then animates the images into what the diamonds sparkle 'could' look like. You will see the differences between a regular non AGS0 H&A and a AGS0 H&A pretty clearly with these readings and also the IdealScope images.GOG and VC have both reports I think..and NiceIce is a great place to go to view very up close shots of stones (e.g. 40x magnification) to see what inclusions look like up close. Chances are..offline jewelers will not go to this depth of information sharing as many of the online vendors do..so once you educate yourself on how things look online by utilizing the tools and reports, you will be better equipped for offline shopping, the smart way. In the end you may even decide you feel better purchasing online! But even if not, then you can assure yourself of the best possible deal purchasing offline.

The stone you mentioned in your other post (1.68c for $14k) sounds pretty good. If you get the crown and angle pavilions, plug them into the HCA for a score. Another way to search for CUT on Pricescope is using the Cut & Quality search on the homepage, it will only bring back excellent HCA scorers that are either H&A and/or AGS0 if you specify, a great way to weed out the duds in the large Pricescope engine! Plus the crown and angle pavilions are given so you can do your own research further if you want.

Good luck!
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
I took my own advice, ran a quick search using Cut Quality and came up with the following.

SuperbCert 1.68c FVS1

Thats all one link. It is a 1.68 F, VS1 for $15960 SuperbCert (SuperIdeal H&A) diamond (run a search for info on these 'branded' diamonds) with a GIA cert and all the reports I mentioned in my post. They have the BrillianceScope, closeups of the stone, HCA scoring, a closeup photo of the stone, the report/certificate, etc. You will get an idea of how it makes it easier to shope once armed with these tools!

Anyway hope that helps some, good luck!
 

trichrome

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
397
How come the same dealers are always recommanded on this forum? I mean there are
hundreds of net companies selling diamond out there? How can you recommand
someone if you have never baught from him?
Also, I advocate never buying a diamond without seeing it before! Or at least,
don't pay before you saw it.
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
True, I have not purchased online but many of our fellow Pricescopers have and they recommend a few of the hundreds of online dealers over and over. That definitely says something to me.

But my main reason for recommending Lugus view sites such as GOG, WhiteFlash, SuperbCert/VirtCert, NiceIce etc is because they give the reporting that many others do not. When I was searching online for a stone, DiamondWholesaleCC was very helpful but didn't offer to get me pictures of the stones much less a BrillianceScope or Sarin reading. Same with DirtCheapDiamonds who tried to get a closeup of inclusions on the stone we were seriously considering(was wary because it was an SI1), but the wholesaler they were dealing with couldn't do it for whatever reasons. Not that the people I worked with at these sites weren't helpful..they were..but they didn't have the wealth of info that we needed in order to feel comfortable with plunking down thousands of dollars. GOG, NI, VC etc have the info that people are seeking. Also, as noted in my previous post..I was recommending that Lugus *view* the information that these sites give, not necessarily buy online. He has the choice, online or offline, its his perogative, but those sites all offer a great visual education on purchasing online AND knowing what to look for offline. IMO, they are very valuable during the research process and help show the buyer what to look for in a purchase.

If there are other great dealers that are not being mentioned, by all means..give them some press if you have some experience with them. The forum is definitely not limited to a few vendors, but it just seems as though there are the ones that *shine* more than others which get the extra positive press from consumers.
 

trichrome

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
397
This forum looks more like a free window for some internet dealers...
It's a little bit like diamondtalk.com

But hopefully it is still 100% independant.

Me too, I should start selling my stones here...... but with
great discretion, to not bother Leonid.

Trichrome.
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
It seems like the dealers who contribute to the forum by being helpful to consumers tend to get more business from participants than those who don't. That might explain why it seems that a good half dozen or so names are always being bandied about. There are some vendors on here who are extremely helpful, and liberal with their knowledge. Consumers like that.
 

Michael-LEO

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 9, 2003
Messages
8

What is interesting on these boards is how many people, both dealers and laypeople, comment on what they do not know./www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>


The LEO diamond is not cut with deeper pavilions, though there are LEO diamonds that do have deeper pavilions, and many that are cut to very good proportion levels. The beauty in the LEO is that for it's class of diamond and price point it is the first diamond to be independently measured for return of light. That is really the claim. The LEO will constantly outperform a comparably cut diamond in return of light./www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>/www.pricescope.com/idealbb/images/smilies/3.gif[/img]>


Though beauty is indeed in an individual's perception of the diamond, and no knock can or should be made on AGS 000 or GIA VG/VG, EX/EX diamonds, when comparing the diamonds available in the Mall, the LEO does present very beautifully at very favorable pricing.

 

Rank Amateur

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
1,553
Hi Michael, welcome aboard!

You said, "for it's class of diamond and price point it is the first diamond to be independently measured for return of light. That is really the claim. The LEO will constantly outperform a comparably cut diamond in return of light." What does this mean?

What "class of diamond" is the Leo? What "price point" are you referring to? What is a "comparably cut diamond" that the Leo will outperform? What are typical Leo pavillion depths, since they are "not deep"? Remember, the Priscopers here aim a little higher than the average maul diamond!

We're thirsty for info here!
 

dimonbob

Brilliant_Rock
Trade
Joined
Dec 12, 2000
Messages
670
Trichrome

There may be "hundreds of net companies selling diamonds out there" but there are only a handful of us that sell AGS0 and Hearts and Arrows on the internet. We are also very knowledgeable about cut as are a few other "experts". Anybody including e-bay can sell "mall" type diamonds. Just look at some of the junk for sell. I think some of those people are offloading the diamonds they have been stuck with for years and need some cash.
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
-----------
The LEO diamond is not cut with deeper pavilions, though there are LEO
diamonds that do have deeper pavilions, and many that are cut to very
good proportion levels.
-----------

Hi Mike. Nice to from you. We'd love to have some information on the Leo. Many people have asked about it. Are there certain parameters held as a standard in the cutting of a Leo, or is it a cut that is used with a wide range of diamond proportions?

-----------
The beauty in the LEO is that for it's class of diamond and price
point it is the first diamond to be independently measured for return
of light. That is really the claim. The LEO will constantly outperform
a comparably cut diamond in return of light.>>
-----------

What method is used to independently measure the return of light?
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
15,670
Leo's are rejected briliant roses that end up in the Japanese market because they are too fussy to buy what US maul shoppers will.

I have yet to find anyone who can measure light return as a %. Any time you hear people quoting that rubbish - run fast (or hit them for me).

Like Fred Cuellar
 

Rank Amateur

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
1,553
----------------
On 4/9/2003 9:47:11 PM Richard Sherwood wrote:

-----------

What method is used to independently measure the return of light?
----------------
I believe the Leo uses the BrillianceScope to "measure" light return. I guess that none of the other mall stores do, so that substantiates the claim that they are the only ones (in a mall) with independent verification. Of course three "highs" may be all you get.

[/u]
 

Michael-LEO

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 9, 2003
Messages
8
Barry's statement regarding more facets is really only partially true.

Actually more facets DOES result in more brilliance and certainly in more scintillation. The proviso being that they are not extraneous facets but effective facets. The simplest demonstration of this is the disco ball. The reason a disco ball glitters so spectavularly is becasue of all the "faceting" on it. The same holds tru with a diamond - but within reason. The 80+ facet diamonds on the market today tend to get cluttered, though they do scintillate.

Much is said about LEO being deeper and "all the extra facets", however the reality is that these statements are not true. LEO only adds 8 facets to a standard 58-facet round, and these are designed to increase the brilliance and scintillation of a diamond - not just to add facet count. The bottom of the round diamond was redesigned to allow the extra faceting to be most effective.
As far as LEO diamonds being deeper - this too is not so. Most LEO diamonds are well within the same parameters as any other conventional 58-facet diamond. There are always exceptions of course.

If you are interested, it would behoove you to do real research and look at the diamond and its certification - not just take the word of those of us here who may have proprietary interest. LEO has a tendency to get knocked because it is exclusive to a chain, that only means that the chain store thought it was worth locking in to and should say something to the consumer. The LEO website also provides very valuable, if self-serving, information. But it will set the facts down fairly.
 

Michael-LEO

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 9, 2003
Messages
8
Actually Zale's and many independants are using the Brilliancescope reports to accompany their diamonds. In fact, Barry's company uses it as well for some of their stones.

Is it 100% accurate? I don't know but it does have some legs and it does have integrity as being independant.
 

Michael-LEO

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 9, 2003
Messages
8
----------------
On 4/10/2003 1:24:24 AM Cut Nut wrote:

Leo's are rejected briliant roses that end up in the Japanese market because they are too fussy to buy what US maul shoppers will.

I have yet to find anyone who can measure light return as a %. Any time you hear people quoting that rubbish - run fast (or hit them for me).

Like Fred Cuellar ----------------


I don't know who Fred Cuellar is and I don't want to hit anybody.

Your statement about LEO being rejected Brilliant Rose is false. In reality the Japanes markets have not been players for several years now because of the economy. The Far East markets are beginning to come back and the Brilliant Rose is beginning to sell there as well as in Europe and England. In some climes it is Brilliant Rose in some LEO and in some LEO cut.

The claim that LEO is a heavy clutzy diamond is usually nade by those who are trying to knock a product rather than sell a product. LEO offers a different look than an AGS 000, but you will never hear a LEO sales person knock and AGS 000 diamond - only try and sell a LEO.

LEO faceting allows a diamond that might otherwise not be able to compete with an AGS 000, a very expensive proposition, to very favorably present the customer with an alternative.

Customer responses to LEO have been overwhelmingly positive - just speak to store managers.
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Michael-LEO:
----------------
Actually Zale's and many independants are using the Brilliancescope reports to accompany their diamonds. In fact, Barry's company uses it as well for some of their stones.

Is it 100% accurate? I don't know but it does have some legs and it does have integrity as being independant.
----------------
Octonus/MSU have shown that human perception of Brilliance is not equal to Light Return. Humans are looking with two eyes, which are in constant motion. Contrast of the object is playing a big role as well.

DiamCalc evaluates both light return and the contrast based on 3D models of real diamonds.

Can you get a 3D Sarin model for Leo-diamond, Michael? It very well may be that light return and contrast calculations will confirm what you see with your eyes.
 

valeria101

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 29, 2003
Messages
15,809
----------------
LEO faceting allows a diamond that might otherwise not be able to compete with an AGS 000, a very expensive proposition, to very favorably present the customer with an alternative.----------------

Hi!

I was looking for some cut called 'Spirit of Flanders' and found it to bequite close to the Leo cut save for a couple of facets... Since both are quite distinct cuts versus the rest, but so similar,I was just wandering wether I might get a chance to see them aside. How are these cuts related?
 

Michael-LEO

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 9, 2003
Messages
8
You make a valuable, if proprietary, point. DTI has done the same studies. The one thing both DTI and Diamcalc do not take into account, that Gemex's Brilliancescope does, and I am not definitively claiming any superiority, is the static motion of diamond.

Both DTI and Diamcalc are at best ray tracing theory and each will produce an observation based on make, angles, etc. But both can be done without ever seeing the actual diamond. The one thing Brilliancescope really does have going for it is that it indivdually measures each diamond and the report it produces is specific to a stone NOT to a cut.

Diamcalc is a nice little program but if I program the measurments (Sarin reading) of a stone that is brown, cloudy, strong blue or has a large impefection in the center, the rsult will be the same as a D IF with the same cut parameters. Brilliancescope will be affected by the cloud or imperfection and will not yield the same return of light.
 

Michael-LEO

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 9, 2003
Messages
8
At heart the LEO Diamond is a round stone, albeit with 8 extra facets. The Flanderrs is, I believe, an eight sided stone. If you give me a link to look at I will try and compare for you.
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,275
Hi Michael,




Great to see you here. In the interest of education (and perhaps picking up new business) and unbiased promotion of the product, could I arrange to have around 5 Leo's sent to me for evaluation?




Rhino
 

Serg

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 21, 2002
Messages
2,535
----------------
On 10/24/2003 1:14:57 PM Michael-LEO wrote:


Diamcalc is a nice little program but if I program the measurments (Sarin reading) of a stone that is brown, cloudy, strong blue or has a large impefection in the center, the rsult will be the same as a D IF with the same cut parameters. Brilliancescope will be affected by the cloud or imperfection and will not yield the same return of light.----------------

You can use specter of diamond in Diamcalc. And we can calculate (BLR) 'basic light responses' by using color of diamond , but in this case we will penalty the diamond two times for color like BS. Do you think what is it correct( penalty two times)?
We grading CUT of diamond.
 

Michael-LEO

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 9, 2003
Messages
8
----------------

You can use specter of diamond in Diamcalc. And we can calculate (BLR) 'basic light responses' by using color of diamond , but in this case we will penalty the diamond two times for color like BS. Do you think what is it correct( penalty two times)?
We grading CUT of diamond. ----------------


To my point - Diamcalc grades only the cut. The Gemex Brilliancescope measures the "return of Light" of the actual diamond. Not a computer model.

Which is why LEO makes the claim that it is the first diamond to be meausred for return of light. The fact that many people in this forum have knocked the cut of the LEO is a separate issue that actually should present LEO ina very favorable light. Even a LEO that is not cut as an AGS 000 or like will still have a superior return of light, added brilliance and scintillation.

However, the majority of LEO diamonds are cut well.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
15,670
Hi Michael,

I have personally examined a number of Leo's and Brilliant Roses with an Ideal-Scope both in Zales stores and at trade fairs.
I agree that compared to 'run of the maul' stones the Leo is superior on balance. 5 or 10 years ago it would have been comparable to an LK perhaps.
But these days, and on this forum, the stones I have seen would not compare to those we find many consumers who do their homework. the goods I saw were better than average but not good enough for me to stock.

Let me however share my goal with you.
To improve the cut quality of all diamonds world over.

Your company's branded stones are part of the solution, not the problem. Sorry if I was overly hard.

With regard DiamCalcand the brilliacscope: Ray tracing does not work on diamonds with poor polish or dreadful clouds. Neither of these issues are likely to be a problem with the better quality goods you present as Leo's, or the branded H&A's that consumers here are often comparing to your stones.

If you could have soemone scan a good selection of your stones with the newest Sarin DiaVision program and create .srn files then we can do fair comparisons of potential for light return that is more accurate than the limited lighting ring positions and pixel counting Brilliancescope approach.
Think of it as a free scientific review.

And welcome
 

Rhino

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Mar 28, 2001
Messages
6,275
GREAT IDEA GARY.




Mike ... I share the same goal as Gary and am a BrillianceScope user but also have the Sarin DiaMension hardware and latest DivVision software. Upon scanning, Gary and I could perhaps offer some constructive criticism in aspects we might *tweak* on the Leo. As Gary stated your company's branded stones are not part of the problem but part of the solution. However, today's Internet savvy buyer wants to see results and if we work together we can bring it to them. We would also be able to present your point of more facets = greater scintillation if indeed the claim is true (I am optimistic it is if those greater amount of facets are coupled with the right set of angles).




Our store is in Long Island, NY and we have 23 years of references if you need em. I am very interested in seeing how a diamond with 16 pavilion mains performs in our optical analysis and I think it would be great positive promotion of the Leo as well.




What do you say Mike? Are you up for the task?




Look forward to hopefully working with ya.




Rhino
 

Mikesgirl

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Aug 30, 2003
Messages
348
Hey, you guys - interesting thread. But let me put the consumer spin on this one.

I have considered the Leo in the past, only because my husband bought me a pair of diamond stud earrings at the Mall and I'd like to improve the overall quality. I can trade up at the store where the originals were purchased.

Problem - the upgrade from those I have to the Leos would be $2625 (including tax)for the same size stone (1 carat total weight). The store told me that the color and clarity vary, but the price doesn't! And, whoooopeee - if a higher color or clarity come in within 90 days of purchase, they'll let me upgrade for no extra charge!

Geeze. For that money I can get H&A or AGS0 for just under $3000 in an H VS2 from several sites on the net. If I go to .47 (which I bet the leos are - they say "approximately 1ctw") and an H S1, I can get them from the net for about $2300. So what is my motivation to spend the same money for the Leos? Even if they were a superior cut quality, there's no motivation to go for so many unknowns, even with the plus of the trade up. I'll just pass the old studs on to my daughter and upgrade on the internet.

So, cut quality is really a moot point unless they can sell the Leos on the net for a competitive price.
 
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