What to do when your trust is broken?

[anon489]

Italia - thanks for the post. I need a good kick up the butt and for the most part I agree with you. I have let this go on for far too long and being tired and busy is not a reason to put off the discussion. Posts like this help me to maintain the rage!

If it''s any consolation I did go off. I moderated my description of our conversation for the purposes of the post but I can assure you there were more than a few 4 letter words. It would have been worse except my mother was in the next room.

 

[FrekeChild]

double post

 

[FrekeChild]

Anon, how did that go over?

ETA: Wait, you went off in your conversation earlier?

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Date: 5/10/2010 1:59:36 AM
Author: anon489
Italia - thanks for the post. I need a good kick up the butt and for the most part I agree with you. I have let this go on for far too long and being tired and busy is not a reason to put off the discussion. Posts like this help me to maintain the rage!


If it''s any consolation I did go off. I moderated my description of our conversation for the purposes of the post but I can assure you there were more than a few 4 letter words. It would have been worse except my mother was in the next room.

I don''t think you need a good kick in the butt...I think you reached a breaking point. His behavior is damaging you as a person and hurting you, and HE is the one who needs the kick in the butt. I wish I could do it for you....

I''m curious to know what his justification is for not completely ending their communications? I''m positive none of it is really "good enough" a reason to continue hurting you...but I just want to know how his mind works? I mean, any rational human being would be stupefied by this.

Also, what is this non-life threatening, but life long disease?

 

[zipzapgirl]

This is so true. One of things I love about him is that he is very generous with his time, but he needs to learn when to stop. I think because of his upbringing, he desperately wants approval and wants everyone to like him. I don’t want to stop him being thoughtful about other people because it is a good quality but he needs to learn boundaries. On a number of occasions, he has let me down because he can’t say no to other people. None of it is major, but it all forms part of a pattern. It also makes it easy for him to make me look like the bad guy because I am getting angry with him when he is trying to help someone else.


I think you both need to sit down and make your joint priorities clear. Your spouse is the first priority and his/her needs come before everyone else''s. It''s hard not to get sucked in to helping out lots of other people if you are an approval-seeker, but constantly reminding yourself what is number one makes things clear. Learning to draw boundaries with people and resist others who might want a connection to the exclusion of your spouse is really important. He has to enforce these boundaries and not worry about pissing someone off.

 

[Bella_mezzo]

Date: 5/10/2010 10:53:47 AM
Author: zipzapgirl
This is so true. One of things I love about him is that he is very generous with his time, but he needs to learn when to stop. I think because of his upbringing, he desperately wants approval and wants everyone to like him. I don’t want to stop him being thoughtful about other people because it is a good quality but he needs to learn boundaries. On a number of occasions, he has let me down because he can’t say no to other people. None of it is major, but it all forms part of a pattern. It also makes it easy for him to make me look like the bad guy because I am getting angry with him when he is trying to help someone else.


I think you both need to sit down and make your joint priorities clear. Your spouse is the first priority and his/her needs come before everyone else''s. It''s hard not to get sucked in to helping out lots of other people if you are an approval-seeker, but constantly reminding yourself what is number one makes things clear. Learning to draw boundaries with people and resist others who might want a connection to the exclusion of your spouse is really important. He has to enforce these boundaries and not worry about pissing someone off.

THIS! So TRUE! Anon I am so sorry you are going through this and hope that your husband sees the light soon and realizes how disrespectful this is to you and to your marriage. You come first, and if that means the other ex who is a friend has to be cut out of his life and/or he needs to be extremely transparent with his communications with her so that you know what''s going on and are comfortable with it then that''s what it means.

I really would recommend getting some good couples (and probably individual) counseling from a trusted pastor or therapist (depending on your beliefs and what resources you have available to you). For us our pastor provided great counseling and it was what we needed, but for other friends of ours they needed more then our pastor could provide as there were some really sever underlying issues so they were referred to a therapist.

huge hugs to you!!!!

 

[Haven]

Date: 5/10/2010 10:53:47 AM
Author: zipzapgirl
This is so true. One of things I love about him is that he is very generous with his time, but he needs to learn when to stop. I think because of his upbringing, he desperately wants approval and wants everyone to like him. I don’t want to stop him being thoughtful about other people because it is a good quality but he needs to learn boundaries. On a number of occasions, he has let me down because he can’t say no to other people. None of it is major, but it all forms part of a pattern. It also makes it easy for him to make me look like the bad guy because I am getting angry with him when he is trying to help someone else.

This describes my father to the letter.
He is so desperate for others to like him and to think that he''s a good guy that he often abandons his own family to come to the rescue of others.

I wrote about him in my earlier post, but I want to add this:
Since my parents'' recent divorce, my mom and I have shared many discussions about my father. Mostly, I''ve been very interested in whether he''s always been this way, or if his behavior has changed over time. According to my mom, when they were first married he showed evidence of this need to be the hero, but it wasn''t as disruptive as it became later on. It started out small--he was just that great guy who would help any and everyone no matter what.

I share this because these patterns can become exaggerated over time, and that is what you want to help prevent right now.

 

[princesss]

Anon, I''m so frustrated for you. If he needs to be the hero, why doesn''t he want to be YOUR hero? It''d be easy to do - just put his marriage first. I don''t get why he needs to go outside of the marriage to be a hero, when you''re asking him to be yours right now.

Counseling is a great idea - individual and couples.

*big hugs*

 

[movie zombie]

Anon, you''ve given him so many chances and he''s continued to betray you. he is the one that is destroying or going to destroy your marriage.
how can you believe he will cut off all communications with her now when he''s lied so much about it and has set up alternate accounts so he can communicate with her?

your original subject for this thread is and was "what to do when your trust is broken?" i''d think long and hard about that.


mz

ps kudos for having the recent discussion. i only wish he had been more open to putting you first.

 

[janinegirly]

A bit late to this thread but I think you really need to start sticking up for yourself. That doesn't just mean using 4 letter words.

He clearly is not respecting you (and blaming you for his wandering attention) and frankly probably enjoying having 2 women "fight" for that attention so to speak. Ok, maybe you shouldn't have checked his emails, but his record wasn't clean and you had suspicions, and he's not exactly covering his tracks.

He needs to stop contact based on the fact that you are not comfortable with this and it is now creating issues in your marriage. Counseling would be a good next step, but he has to want to do that and I do not get the sense he's too scared about your next move.

Might be time to spell it out and if his reaction does not do a 180, then you need to take some drastic next steps. That's my opinion at least.

 

[Porridge]

I can''t believe he doesn''t think what he''s doing is wrong. I am furious for you!! If it''s so fine, why is he sneaking around?!? Is this going to happen every time your attention is not fully on him? Like when you''re pregnant, or suffering a loss, or traveling for work or something?!? Ridiculous

You need to put your foot down here. Sure, you may not be perfect, a little mean when your stressed...who isn''t?!? That is NO excuse for his behaviour.

 

[TooPatient]

Find a good psychologist and make an appointment. Tell him when it is and that he needs to go because your marriage needs help. (couples, individual - for both of you, combination of, whatever)

His behavior is not okay. Luckily (this time) the woman is in a different country and he isn''t covering his tracks well. What about next time?


Good luck.

 

[anon489]

We had another long discussion (fight?) last night that almost ended in both of us walking out. He came back and said he wants to work it out but that we need to go to a counsellor because we don’t seem to be able to resolve conflict. At least, we are agree on that. However, I have made it very clear that if we have any chance of this working, he needs to accept that he is equally responsible for where we are and he cannot keep blaming me for everything. I know this is a big ask so I can only hope that hearing it from an independent person will make it sink in.

He has agreed not to contact her any more but I still don’t think he understands how much he has hurt me. I have written him a long letter explaining it so maybe that will help but I am not holding my breath.

I know this is not going to be easy and that I may not like what I hear. Time will tell.

Italia – she found out at age 29 that she has premature ovarian failure and cannot have children. She was devastated because she desperately wants children. My heart goes out to her, it really does, but that still doesn’t justify him putting her feelings before mine and lying about it. And to be honest, I agree with a few people that he is doing this because he likes the attention. It is not all about her needs.

Princess – This is so true. His view is that he doesn’t know when I am down and need his support (being the emotionally retarded male that he is, his words not mine) and that he needs me to tell him. My view is that I shouldn’t always have to tell him and that he should be more sensitive and thoughtful about it. He has done some reading and knows that our current situation can often lead to sadness, anger and sometimes depression yet he can’t or doesn’t want to make the link between that information and how I’m feeling/behaving. Instead he just gets angry or frustrated with me when I am not happy or I’m a little mean (and when I say mean I just mean being short, abrupt, standoffish etc not doing anything spiteful or hurtful). I know I need to try to express my feelings more constructively but still a little understanding would be nice.

Porridge – I agree. We are going through a rough time now and obviously not coping well. I’m sure there will be other tough times so if he can only deal with the happy me, I’m not sure where we go from here.

MZ – I agree. I am going to go to counselling by myself because I need to work out what I need to happen to stay in this relationship.

Thankyou also to everyone for your thoughts. It really is helping me a lot.

 

[monarch64]

I''m sorry about what you''re going through, Anon. But I have a real problem with the fact that he told you tonight that he is emotionally retarded and YOU have to tell him when you are feeling down or whatever, when he has NO PROBLEM figuring out that this other woman is devastated over her medical problem. Really? Maybe you should start explaining all your feelings to him via chat? That was a ridiculous cop out and he''s continuing to blame you.

Why are you the one going to counselling? He''s the one doing something wrong here, not you.

Further, I wouldn''t buy into this "she found out she can''t have children" business. For all either you or he knows, it could be her way of winning him back and then "accidentally but OMG what a miracle on purpose" guaranteeing a forever connection to him. Just a thought. Call me a cynic...

I hope things get better for you. Take care of yourself.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

WHOA....

Okay, so she has ovarian failure...

It''s sad...but it''s hardly as "serious" as I thought, considering all the consoling she seems to need. Yes, it''s unfortunate but it''s not like her life is over--she has multiple options from here, believe me, I know. She hardly needs his sympathetic ear every day. Doesn''t she have family or friends outside of your husband? To me, it''s a ploy...a cunning manipulation...of all the people she could turn to for comfort, he now-married ex-boyfriend who lives in a different country seems rather far fetched. I mean, really, of all the people...him? Come on.

And I''m shocked to hear that he wants you to shoulder the blame for your relationship''s short comings. Does he not understand that HE is the one who has stepped outside of the marriage, and really, REALLY put everything at stake? You''ve been busy making your life work...he''s been having an online affair...if we''re going to compare and contrast...

I really don''t think that there is anything you can do at this point, he''s built this wall of justifications around himself--he, in his opinion, can do no wrong, talking to her is as innocent as waving to a neighbor. Unless he is willing to take the wall down, you''re never going to convince him that he''s wrong--you don''t have that power. I really believe he''s spent so much time invested with this girl, and sneaking and scheming that he has invested just as much time inventing excuses as to why he''s not a bad boy.

I think you both need some serious therapy and he needs that preverbal "coming to Jesus moment" where he realizes that he is, in fact, wrong. And I would tell you that you need to remain diligent...you shouldn''t feel badly about looking into his stuff, and if you find even so much as a e-mail, or remnant that they have had communication of any kind...you need to walk. Because if this doesn''t work, what will? He doesn''t have permission to continue hurting you...and you need to stand up for yourself.

 

[RaiKai]

While I can imagine a diagnosis of ovarian failure would be very difficult (i.e. in respect of children, changes in hormones, and so on) at a young age.....it is certainly NOT a diagnosis that requires his constant and continual support. She knows that. And I bet he knows that too.

If she does not have family and friends to support her....she should find a support group which will have people in it who could be a far better, and far more appropriate, support than your husband.

He is playing the blame game - and placing the blame squarely on your shoulders. And while a relationship takes two....that is not a fair burden for you to carry all on your own. If he was feeling dissatisfied with things in your relationship...he should have talked to you as a compassionate adult...not behind your back to this other woman.

I do think the *only* thing that can be done at this point is individual and couple's therapy. Honestly, he has closed the walls between you and him and opened the doors between him and this other woman. This is a serious issue, no matter how innocently he plays it off. I can't say whether therapy will *work* to have him realize his errors or not (and I suspect he already knows he is not being above board, hence the defensiveness and blame-game) or improve things, but I do know it will at least help you in some ways to evaluate whether this is what you want in a relationship or a partner - and whether you are both right partners for one another at this time or in the long term. Actually, it will help you BOTH to evaluate that.

Personally, and I know that I am able to be more objective as I am NOT in your shoes, but a relationship whereby my partner was prioritizing his relationship and intimacy with another person over that with me (and manipulating me into accepting that) would not be one I would be willing to continue with unless there was MAJOR change, and both of us were going to put in a LOT of work to build that strength and trust again. I just am not sure your husband is willing to do that (when he cannot even see it at this point).

 

[movie zombie]

i''ve got to say that i''d never trust him again even if he did cut off all communication with her. my trust at this point would be so broken and i''d be so hurt that he made the choices he did that i''d always be "vigilant" checking up on him....and i don''t believe that is conducive to a good marriage/relationship. i would have to acknowledge my inability to him that i''d never again trust him and that he has closed a door between us that i''m afraid will never be reopened and that perhaps it would be better to separate at this time so i could work things out for myself and he can decide which life he wants. it would hurt. but i know me: i don''t and won''t accept blatant lies between me and my husband. i''m just not tuned that way nor do i want to be. call it one of my many flaws.

Anon, i''m so very sorry you''re having to deal with this. but its been an ongoing issue for years and its become a cycle in the relationship. unless that cycle is broken now, it will get worse. if you''re unhappy now, you''ll be bitter after more years spent in this cycle. i hope you find a great counselor for yourself first. until you are absolutely clear about what you want for you yourself, you will not be able to be clear with him or draw a line in the sand that needs to be drawn but then reinforced if need be. in my book, he''s a fool and he has to be held responsible for his choices and actions. i believe he said he was willing to go to counseling: hold him to it. but get yourself into a counselor''s office ASAP. you may find that you are unable to commit to couples counseling until you''ve gotten clear for yourself first.

good luck and stay true to you and what is best for you.

mz

 

[doodle]

Oh, I''m so probably going to get flamed for this whole post, but here goes...I''ve been in a very similar situation to this before, too, except I was the one in your husband''s shoes. My ex and I broke up because he cheated on me with the woman he''s now married to. It took both of us quite a while to get to where we are today, but at this point, that ex is my best friend in the world other than my husband. When DH and I first got together, he wasn''t so crazy about the friendship between me and the ex, nor was the ex''s wife. Big difference between me and your DH is that I never lied to my DH about that friendship or tried to hide it, but I did tell my DH that the ex was a part of my life and not someone I was willing to part ways with--he had a great deal to do with who I am today, and he''s a valuable part of my life. We wound up getting all four of us together one night, having a couple of drinks, and hashing over every issue involved with the whole scenario, and while it wasn''t easy, we''re now to a place where both my DH and my friend''s wife understand that our friendship isn''t a threat to either of them because there''s nothing romantic involved with it, and DH and my ex are friends, as are ex''s wife and I. The problem as I see it with your whole situation is that it''s turned into a merry-go-round where one problem leads to another which leads to another, so where do you begin to fix things? You''ve both violated each other''s trust in this, and if your DH feels that you don''t trust him, that makes it more difficult for him to talk to you, so he talks to her, which makes you trust him even less, and so the circle continues. If he still had romantic feelings toward her, it''d be a totally different animal, but you said yourself that you''ve seen no evidence of that, that the inappropriate part was his dishonesty about it--and to be fair, if he HAD been honest about it from the get-go, what would your reaction have been? If you know you would''ve freaked out and thrown a fit over it, it doesn''t make it right but it does make it a little more understandable, I guess, that he tried to conceal it. Maybe he felt like he was sparing your feelings, maybe he just chickened out over the confrontation and kept it a secret to cover his own butt. At this point, it doesn''t matter; what''s done is done. Y''all just have to figure out a way now to end the cycle of mistrust and get to a point where you''re mutually striving to understand and respect each other''s views. Personally, I think asking him to cut this woman out of his life completely is unfair, and if you''re uncomfortable with his relationship with her because you feel there are unresolved issues between them, making him cut her out isn''t going to fix those issues. It''s just going to make him feel like you''re dictating who he can speak to because you don''t trust him. Anywho, I''m talking in circles now! Going to counseling, both together and separately, would be a wonderful idea, and I wish you both all the best in smoothing things over. It won''t be easy, but it''s definitely doable--take it from someone who has been there!

 

[cara]

Doodle there are big differences between your situation and the one the anon described - big! The fact that you didn''t lie or sneak around, and didn''t set up your spouse to be the fall guy to your extracurricular friend carrying on a relationship in secret. When anon''s husband made a big show out of deleting the emails and promised never to contact his ex again - that was when he needed to man up and articulate a case for a platonic open relationship with his ex if that was what he wanted! But instead of honoring his commitment to his wife, he lied to her, carried on a relationship with the ex in secret in which he blamed the secrecy on his wife! Those details are huge! I think you are focused on the wrong party here trusting his spouse. Yes anon snooped but she found evidence that her husband was lying to her in an ongoing fashion and blaming her for things in an extramarital relationship! AND we have no evidence that this ex is completely 100% platonic in this thing here.

How is anon supposed to trust her husband when he has lied to her repeatedly about this woman, and them blames anon for his actions? He''s not taking responsibility for anything and that is a big problem. Openness is the key here - you carried on your friendship with your ex completely in the open. You told your spouse about it upfront, all the partners have met each other and are okay with things. That makes HUGE HUGE differences from the OP''s post.

At this point anon''s husband needs to give up this supposedly platonic friend because of his own actions! He already agreed to give up contact with her, and lying about that has hurt his wife badly and hurt his marriage. He needs to make his marriage right, prioritize his wife and his wife''s feelings over this friendship, if those are his priorities in life. If they aren''t then the marriage is doomed. It *might* have been possible to keep this friendship and his marriage if he had been open about things from the get-go but we don''t get to replay history here.

 

[doodle]

Oh holy moly. Cara, thank you for pointing out how poorly my last post came across because I totally agree with much of your post! As I said before, I did tell DH from the get-go that my ex was someone I wasn''t willing to cut out of my life, and the OP''s DH was totally in the wrong for having lied to her about it. Had he handled the situation maturely and in a way that was respectful to his relationship, when the OP first mentioned having a problem with their friendship, he should''ve said something along the lines of, "I''m with you because I love YOU, but I''m not ready to completely push her out of my life either. Is there anything I can do to make you more comfortable with our friendship?" and he should have DONE THAT, and I mean bend over backwards to prove to her that it''s nothing more than a friendship and no reason for her to feel uncomfortable about it. Unfortunately, he didn''t do that, and that''s a big huge bad on his part. Even worse is making everything her fault--it takes two to tango, as the saying goes, and he needs to take responsibility for how his failure to man up and tell her how he felt THEN is impacting their relationship NOW. My comment regarding their being in a merry-go-round situation now wasn''t intended to place blame on her in any way, and if that''s the impression I gave, then anon, I truly apologize. My intent was to say that his not addressing his feelings about it from the beginning started a chain of dishonesty, distrust, and hurt feelings that''s difficult to break. Yes, anon did find evidence that he had been lying to her, but that doesn''t negate that by snooping, she betrayed his trust as well, so at this point, they''re both involved in actions that don''t do much to help the situation; the difference on this one is that anon acknowledges her wrong-doing while he still isn''t. Regarding "evidence that this ex is completely 100% platonic" just goes back to the trust issues yet again. In a perfect world, she''d be able to trust her spouse enough to take his word that the relationship is purely platonic, but that trust has already been broken. I still don''t think that removing this friend from the equation fixes anything--she isn''t the problem. His dishonesty about her is. You have to fix the issues that led to the whole mess in the first place; otherwise, anon will spend her whole life telling him he''s not allowed to speak to various people because she doesn''t trust him. To me, it''s more than just prioritizing his wife over a friendship--if she tells him he has to cut this woman out of his life for her, she''s basically saying "I don''t trust you, and I don''t trust your judgment." Again, that doesn''t fix the underlying issues, the problems with trust and communication. I feel for ya, anon--the whole thing just sucks!

 

[winelover23]

Hey there, just wanted to add to the "I''m so sorry this is happening to you". If he''s doing something that he won''t do in front of you then it''s shady. Period. I have a lot of male friends but I would NEVER do anything or say anything w/ them that I wouldn''t if my fiance was standing right there. It''s called respect and unfortunately it would appear your DH is disrespecting you. I wish I had the answer. Being lied to is such a disgusting feeling. I really feel for you. I still have a lot of pent up frustration from my previous marriage so if you would like me to knock him around a bit please let me know!

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Doodle...you are comparing apples to oranges. You were honest, upfront and candid. You let your DH make his own decisions in regards to how he felt and gave him the option to decide if he could be involved with you knowing that you were planning to continue a platonic relationship with your ex. You never made a fool of him by lying, sneaking around or any other of the revolting things Anon''s husband did. You went about things completely differently, and it''s admirable as opposed to disgusting.

Anon, I''ve been thinking about this literally all day...it''s really a mind bender. I was wondering if you''ve ever considering moving out or kicking him out for a while? I know that probably sounds pretty forward...but all day I tried to think about how I would feel and how I would react, and I think that I would have to make drastic changes immediately and get some breathing room.

Years and years ago, I was involved with a man who cheated on me. ALL of his affairs started online. I remember reeling over the fact that he valued strangers more than he valued me. It was the ultimate humiliation. I remember thinking, if it had been a real person I would have been able to swallow it...if these people had faces and names and places that meant something, I could cope...but they were figments, and yet he''d sacrifice time with me--hell, he''d sacrifice me in general--for screen names. Now, I know that your ex knows this girl...but it''s more or less the same thing...she''s not "real", not like you are. She''s a world away and it''s been years since they were together--he doesn''t even know her in real life...to be with her, he''d have to uproot his entire life. I''m just so angry for you.

 

[mtjoya]

Sorry, anon! Hell no! I would be just as upset as you are. I really don''t think that he knows that you are serious and upset. What if it would be the other way around? I don''t think that he would like it! Sit him down and talk to him. I hope that you can resolve this issue. I am sending dust your way!

 

[mtjoya]

Sorry I read your first post and replied right away. But, I hope that things work out! I love how you express your advice Itaila!

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 5/7/2010 12:26:52 PM
Author: MMMD
I''m not agreeing with everyone else. He married you. This other woman was available he could have married her instead of you. Some relationships turn into beautiful friendships. He''s sneaking because you want him to end this friendship and he doesn''t want to. I''ve been married 23 years and I would never tell my DH who he could correspond with, he''s a grown man and not my property. It sounds to me that you want your DH to ''prove'' he loves you more than her. He does, he married you. Let him have his friends.

I agree with this, but with a ''BUT''.

When he asks her why this woman is different than all of his other female friends, he only has himself to blame right from the start when he HID his future wife from his ex and set up a deception that goes straight to the beginning of their relationship.

I believe he has no romantic interest in X and I actually think demanding their relationship end will ultimately be worse for her own relationship. That said, this man has a lot of growing up to do - a lot of owning his own wrongs in this and coming to terms both with that AND how to make it right to both of these women in his life... primarily of course his wife. By not having balls from the start he deceived one and then the other and has some sort of fantasy here that needs to be demolished. Whether they can be friends after all of that or not is going to be based on how he handles his responsibility in all of this.

I agree with the above poster in that he is only being secret because you have attempted to deny him this relationship - but the only reason you deny him this relationship is because he has been secretive. In a which came first, chicken or egg thinking - his secretiveness started the whole thing when he hid his future wife from his ex and I think he owes his wife an apology for that as a starter.

 

[steph72276]

I''m sorry you''re going through this anon. I would be just as upset. Not because of the friendship, but because of the lying and deception. I would wonder if he has hid anything else since he has been so deceptive and sneaky. My husband and I both know all of our passwords to any email accounts, FB accounts, bank accounts and so on...not because we check on each other, but because we don''t have anything to hide at all. Trust is something that is earned, and he has broken yours. Until he can PROVE himself to you over a long period of time, he needs to lay everything out on the table, including giving you any and all access to email accounts, and especially bank accounts so you can see what he''s doing with his money. He doesn''t deserve to be trusted yet b/c of all his lies.

 

[doodle]

Date: 5/12/2010 7:40:33 AM
Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 5/7/2010 12:26:52 PM

Author: MMMD

I''m not agreeing with everyone else. He married you. This other woman was available he could have married her instead of you. Some relationships turn into beautiful friendships. He''s sneaking because you want him to end this friendship and he doesn''t want to. I''ve been married 23 years and I would never tell my DH who he could correspond with, he''s a grown man and not my property. It sounds to me that you want your DH to ''prove'' he loves you more than her. He does, he married you. Let him have his friends.

I agree with this, but with a ''BUT''.


When he asks her why this woman is different than all of his other female friends, he only has himself to blame right from the start when he HID his future wife from his ex and set up a deception that goes straight to the beginning of their relationship.


I believe he has no romantic interest in X and I actually think demanding their relationship end will ultimately be worse for her own relationship. That said, this man has a lot of growing up to do - a lot of owning his own wrongs in this and coming to terms both with that AND how to make it right to both of these women in his life... primarily of course his wife. By not having balls from the start he deceived one and then the other and has some sort of fantasy here that needs to be demolished. Whether they can be friends after all of that or not is going to be based on how he handles his responsibility in all of this.


I agree with the above poster in that he is only being secret because you have attempted to deny him this relationship - but the only reason you deny him this relationship is because he has been secretive. In a which came first, chicken or egg thinking - his secretiveness started the whole thing when he hid his future wife from his ex and I think he owes his wife an apology for that as a starter.

THIS IS EXACTLY what I was attempting to say but was doing so horribly!!! Thanks for being so concise, cehrabehra!

 

[Cehrabehra]

I was just thinking about this in the shower, and I think the issue boils down to simply whose feelings is he putting foremost? He started by putting X''s feelings first as to not hurt her feelings that he''d moved on... and he''s still putting her feelings first in that he doesn''t want to end the relationship despite his wife''s unhappiness with it.

I started thinking okay WHY is he behaving like this? Is it because he''s still attracted? I seriously don''t think so. Is it because he needs HER as a friend? i kinda doubt that''s it too. Then I thought - I bet he feels guilty. I bet he feels guilty that he simultaneously discovered he didn''t feel THAT way about her as she got her diagnosis. I think his guilt is fueling this whole issue. Of course I don''t *know* this, but it seems logical to me.

to the op - have you ever met her? has he ever encouraged you and she to have a friendship? does he mostly talk with her about her health issues?

 

[House Cat]

Date: 5/7/2010 2:49:44 AM
Author:anon489

Hi all

I normally post on PS under a different name but wanted to remain anonymous for this one.

I am having some issues about DH being in contact with an ex-girlfriend and I’m not quite sure how to deal with it. Sorry this is really long but I hope the history gives some perspective.

Brief background (all before DH and I met) – Ex GF lives in another country but they met when she was living here a few years ago. They were friends while she lived here and for a couple of years afterwards but never dated because she had a boyfriend. When she broke up with the boyfriend, she intimated to DH that she had feelings for him. He went to see her twice over the course of a few months and they started a relationship over this time. He was contemplating moving there but on the second trip things obviously didn’t pan out and he came home. She had received an upsetting medical diagnosis around that time (not life threatening but certainly life altering) so was not in a good place. I think the relationship was in limbo for a while, not really on or off but they were still in contact.

DH and I met and started going out a few months after he got home from the second trip. He told me they had broken up when he left her country after the second trip and that they were in irregular contact. One day he asked me to send a message from his phone while we were driving and the last message on his phone was from her. I looked back and there were quite a few messages between them including one where she asked whether he was seeing anyone and he just replied “some girls have asked me out”. We hadn’t been going out that long but things had moved pretty quickly so I was a little put out but he assured me it was only because he didn’t want her to get upset when she was already depressed. (I know she was in a bad way from independent sources). I told him I was uncomfortable with it and didn’t think it was fair to lie to her even if it would upset her but I let it go. Over the next little while, he would tell her things he was doing and occasionally add my name to the list of people without explaining who I was. Eventually she worked it out and was quite upset but then sent him a message saying she knew it hadn’t worked out because she hadn’t been very nice to him and wished him the best. I know all of this because he told me about it and showed me “selected” bits of the correspondence. After that he lead me to believe they were in occasional contact only. I told him again that I was uncomfortable with it but I let it go. In my mind I still had some nagging doubts, mainly about the nature of their relationship and how things had ended (I couldn’t quite put my finger on it but he always just seemed a little bitter about it) and the level of ongoing contact.

Fast forward about a year and I was using his computer one night and found he had left his email account open. I am not proud of myself for this and don’t really know what possessed me to do it, but there was a folder with her name on it and I started looking through the emails. From the emails from around the time he came home, it wasn’t clear whether they were together or not because it wasn’t BF/GF style correspondence but there were general emails talking about whether they would see each other again, about her coming back here, talking about meeting up for holidays etc so there was obviously something unresolved. There was nothing romantic or inappropriate in the emails after the time that we started going out and they were pretty irregular towards the end but it was still much more contact between them than he had led me to believe. I got really angry about it but his view was that they hadn’t been in contact for ages, there was nothing inappropriate in the emails, they were just going back to the friendship they had before their short relationship and he couldn’t possibly be cheating on me because she lives overseas. My issue was not with the fact that I thought he was cheating (because physically it was not possible) but more that I didn’t think he had been honest with me about their relationship, when they broke up and the level of contact he had with her since then and that there were still some unresolved issues. He told me that he didn’t understand what the issue was but that he loved me and if it made me uncomfortable he would stop contacting her. So I told him I was uncomfortable and asked him to stop. He made a big show of deleting all the emails (not at my request) and that was that.

Fast forward about another year and we are now married. I opened his computer and skype was open and the last few messages were from her. I looked back through the history and they have been in regular contact (via written messages) over the last year, often with messages every couple of days or more. Again there is nothing romantic in the emails but I just feel this level of contact is inappropriate, especially since he knows I am not comfortable with it and has said he would stop. He even says in some of the messages to her that he couldn’t reply to messages because I am in the room and wouldn’t like it. He even told her he had sent a message from another source because I had gone through his emails. She now thinks I am crazy psycho wife (maybe she’s right?) (To put this in perspective, I’m not a jealous person and I’ve never felt the need to check anyone’s phone or email before and I feel no need to do it in relation to any other aspect of his life. I also have no issues with any of his other exes or any of his female friends.)

He says he loves me, that they are just friends and he is just trying to support her through a difficult time (she is taking an extended period off work to try to find whether there is any “cure” for her medical condition). Even if all of this is true, he doesn’t seem to understand why I feel this is a betrayal of my trust and shows a complete and deliberate disregard for my feelings. He won’t even acknowledge that he has lied to me about it or is doing anything wrong even though he is clearly trying to hide it from me. He tells me he will stop if I “really really” want him to. For me this just isn’t enough given the long history behind this but I don’t know where we go from here? Am I overreacting? What do I do?

He admits his guilt right in orange. He knew he was doing wrong! Now, he is trying to cover his butt! Too bad, for the evidence was damning. You saw it with your own two eyes. Do not allow smoke and mirrors to cloud your judgment. You saw, in his own words, that he knew what he was doing was wrong!

Actually, I do think it is wise that you seek counseling on your own. This will give you your own perspective, your own voice, a clear picture of why you are hurt, and it will plant your feet firmly on the ground. It would be wise for him to go to counseling too, but without him seeing a real problem, he probably won''t. Definitely meet in the middle somewhere. I can''t see a couple''s counselor justifying his actions.

 

[miraclesrule]

Okay, I am going to chime in on this one.

In my opinion, and from what I can deduce from the input set forth, your husband has to have some level of consciousness of guilt or he wouldn't be "hiding" from you. There can only be two causes for this. Either he is intentionally "cheating" behind your back, or he really feels that you are unable to trust his harmless intentions. The problem with the first scenario is obvious, compounded by the fact that he projects his guilt onto you. That's just chicken poop.

Now, even if he's just a guy who like to maintain contacts and friendships with all human friends, there is no reason for him to hide it from you, nor for you to overreact if it wasn't crossing a boundary and the intentions were pure and clear.

I have a friend like this. He is overly reliant on approval and is ever charming in order to get it. He doesn't even understand that his need to do that can send the wrong message to the other party and put him in a potentially compromising situation that can destroy his primary relationship. It's the one reason why I just could not commit to him. At the basic level, I just couldn't trust him. In fact, to this day, I still feel that although he is in a committed relationship, it wouldn't be difficult for me to get him to "hook up" with me while she was out of town. I would never do that...but other women would and do (Bombshell McGee anyone?)

Let me give you the opposite example of a person who I trusted implicitly. I had just begun dating a guy for less than a month and while we were at his place watching t.v. he got a call from an ex-girlfriend who was going to be in town and wanted to know if she could stay at his place. It was totally innocent and he was obviously happy to hear from her and catch up with her, but he told her that as far as staying at his place he wouldn't be able to have her stay with him because he had just started seeing someone and if the situation were reversed he doesn't think he would be too excited to learn that another man was staying with me. I was shell-shocked that he was saying this to her right in front of me. I was not used to being with people who had such a high level of integrity and honesty. (I still love that about him, by the way)

My point is, that the intentions were clear. Nothing was in secret. Secrets destroy.
That is the issue to me in your situation. No two relationships need to compete against each other. I will always be friends with my former lovers, but that doesn't mean I will ever do it in secret. This women that he is communicating with is only a threat to the extent that her intentions are not clear to you, because he is not being transparent with you. In fact, his conveying to her his need for secrecy with her should be making her say to him "why do you have to lie to Anon? Don't lie on my behalf" But she isn't saying this, which means that there is an underlying intent or lack of respect for your relationship, or maybe confusion...whatever...on her part. Whatever it is...it isn't really about her. It's about him and you.

My suggestion is that when you go to therapy, don't try to get the therapist to determine who is wrong, or who is right. They don't do that. What I suggest is for you to really try to clarify what your feelings are, which are always connected to need that you feel is or is not being met.

For instance. I sense you are feeling angry because you have a need for honesty, respect, inclusion and consideration. You are feeling scared because you have a need for security, safety and support. You are feeling confused, embarrassed and vulnerable because you have a need for intimacy and trust and to matter. Ask the therapist to help you define what your SO would need to be willing to do in order for you to begin to feel like your needs are being met so you can feel more:

understanding
compassionate
relieved
encouraged
trusting
content