What is wrong with this diamond ring?

[wa060708]

I got this engagement ring from my husband last year. We picked out the diamond together. I have been researching about diamond from all websites and finally place the order from an online company. The specs seem to be good but not sure why it''s not very shinny. I really want a super brilliant diamond ring like a super white snowy shinny diamond reflected to the eyes. My diamond is shinny under white light and not shinny at all under dimmer lighting, I can even see a dark circle in the center. Please help~

shape and cut: Round Brilliant
carat weight: 1.15
measurements: 6.80 - 6.86 x 4.10mm
Color: F
Clarity: SI1 (very clean to the eye)
Cut: Excellent
HCA: 0.3 Excellent
Polish: E
Symmetry: E
Fluroescence: none
Depth: 60%
Table: 56%
Crown angle: 34.5
Pavilion angle: 40.6
GIA graded report


Thanks
Wing

 

[stone-cold11]

hmmm... Try getting an Idealscope and take a pic and post here? It looks like a good stone from the numbers though.

I am thinking maybe it is an obstruction issue you are seeing. How close to the stone are you looking at when you notice the dark ring?

 

[AmberGretchen]

Well, keep in mind that you need SOME light for the diamond to reflect, so if you are in a dark room and casting a shadow, any diamond, no matter how beautiful it is, may not be very shiny.

Are you sure it is clean? Having a dirty diamond (like mine is right now...) can really dull the shine...

 

[wa060708]

I don''t have the ideascope, the company don''t have one.
Before I got this GIA ring, I had a AGS triple 0 diamond -ideal cut and it was super icy shinny but I ended up returning the diamond ring coz it was not eye clean. I can "clearly" see black dots when i look closely or relatively close to the diamond. I was really happy with the brilliance though. All I see is white light reflected to my eyes and no leakages. So when I got this GIA ring, I have comparsions and I can tell the difference given both diamonds are "excellent/ideal cut". I saw the dark center in some angles under different lighting. It bothers me as I can''t see the super white lights shine anymore (I can see it easily in the AGS ring) Now I am a bit hesitant to purchase diamonds graded by GIA.

 

[wa060708]

I don''t think it''s the dirt as I noticed it right away when I got the ring. My mom and grandma also think the ring is not very shinny.
I think maybe there''s something to do with the depth%..maybe it''s too shallow.

 

[stone-cold11]

Buy an idealscope? It is not that expensive, at around $25 a piece.

Or get an appraisal done from an appraiser with IS?

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 4/16/2009 7:25:32 PM
Author: wa060708
I think maybe there''s something to do with the depth%..maybe it''s too shallow.

Depth has nothing to do with it. It is the shallow pavilion angle. For that crown angle, ideally it should be higher, in the 40.8 range. With the averaging of 8 facets and rounding of numbers on GIA data, pavilion angles at steps of 0.2 degrees, your stones average angle could be as low as 40.5, and that would result in significant obstruction issue. This is why we prefer to see an IS before we recommend a stone.

 

[Lorelei]

40.6 pavilion angle is borderline shallow regardless of the crown angle. As GIA round the numbers it is possible this angle is shallower than 40.6 which can cause obstruction issues. I will post a video, take a look and let us know if it is that you are seeing. It is bottom right of this page titled Head Obstruction.

http://diamondscope.pricescope.com/

Does the company you bought it from have an upgrade policy of any sort?

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 4/17/2009 5:09:07 AM
Author: Lorelei
40.6 pavilion angle is borderline shallow regardless of the crown angle.

I disagree, for example with FIC crown angles 35.5 and above, 40.6 PA is not shallow.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 4/17/2009 6:50:21 AM
Author: Stone-cold11

Date: 4/17/2009 5:09:07 AM
Author: Lorelei
40.6 pavilion angle is borderline shallow regardless of the crown angle.

I disagree, for example with FIC crown angles 35.5 and above, 40.6 PA is not shallow.

Right, the higher CA "balances" the shallower PA, in an FIC. But when you couple a shallower PA with a shallower CA, with a shallower depth (though this is not too shallow all on its own), you can get obstruction/decreased scint, which it sounds like she "may" be experiencing. Plus, the numbers are rounded, so things "could" be leaning even more toward the shallower side.

That''s why I passed on the stone that person asked about yesterday (where you and I were giving advice), that had almost the exact same measurement, for this reason.

wa, it''s not the lab that graded it that''s the real problem here, it''s the cut of the stone. There are many fine GIA stones, but one does have to do a bit of homework to get an EX cut that performs well, and for that you can "fault" GIA, but also AGS, there Ideal cuts are not all "givens" either. Try searching on here for "obstruction"/"head obstruction", see if that sounds like what''s going on. Does it have good scintillation/sparkle? (is that what you mean by shiny?) That "can" be another affect from this type of cut, it may lack in that area.

Maybe read the tutorial here too, that might help!

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 4/17/2009 8:55:03 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 4/17/2009 6:50:21 AM

Author: Stone-cold11

Date: 4/17/2009 5:09:07 AM

Author: Lorelei

40.6 pavilion angle is borderline shallow regardless of the crown angle.

I disagree, for example with FIC crown angles 35.5 and above, 40.6 PA is not shallow.

Right, the higher CA ''balances'' the shallower PA, in an FIC. But when you couple a shallower PA with a shallower CA, with a shallower depth (though this is not too shallow all on its own), you can get obstruction/decreased scint, which it sounds like she ''may'' be experiencing. Plus, the numbers are rounded, so things ''could'' be leaning even more toward the shallower side.

That''s why I passed on the stone that person asked about yesterday (where you and I were giving advice), that had almost the exact same measurement, for this reason.

What I am disagreeing with Lorelei is her comment that the pavilion angle is shallow regardless of crown angle which is not true.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 4/17/2009 8:58:25 AM
Author: Stone-cold11

Date: 4/17/2009 8:55:03 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 4/17/2009 6:50:21 AM

Author: Stone-cold11

Date: 4/17/2009 5:09:07 AM

Author: Lorelei

40.6 pavilion angle is borderline shallow regardless of the crown angle.

I disagree, for example with FIC crown angles 35.5 and above, 40.6 PA is not shallow.

Right, the higher CA 'balances' the shallower PA, in an FIC. But when you couple a shallower PA with a shallower CA, with a shallower depth (though this is not too shallow all on its own), you can get obstruction/decreased scint, which it sounds like she 'may' be experiencing. Plus, the numbers are rounded, so things 'could' be leaning even more toward the shallower side.

That's why I passed on the stone that person asked about yesterday (where you and I were giving advice), that had almost the exact same measurement, for this reason.

What I am disagreeing with Lorelei is her comment that the pavilion angle is shallow regardless of crown angle which is not true.

It is always best to carefully evaluate a 40.6 PA especially if GIA reported. The pavilion angle is what drives the light return and even though a steeper crown angle can in some cases compensate, it is best to be cautious with PA in this region. A shallower PA is a well known feature of a FIC of course but even then apparently needs an eye on it if much shallower than 40.6 in case of problems.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 4/17/2009 8:58:25 AM
Author: Stone-cold11


What I am disagreeing with Lorelei is her comment that the pavilion angle is shallow regardless of crown angle which is not true.

She said "borderline", which I would agree with. It's at the shallower "edge", regardless of cut.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 4/17/2009 9:04:29 AM
Author: Lorelei

It is always best to carefully evaluate a 40.6 PA especially if GIA reported. The pavilion angle is what drives the light return and even though a steeper crown angle can in some cases compensate, it is best to be cautious with PA in this region. A shallower PA is a well known feature of a FIC of course but even then apparently needs an eye on it if much shallower than 40.6 in case of problems.

Right.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 4/17/2009 9:05:48 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 4/17/2009 8:58:25 AM
Author: Stone-cold11


What I am disagreeing with Lorelei is her comment that the pavilion angle is shallow regardless of crown angle which is not true.

She said ''borderline'', which I would agree with. It''s at the shallower ''edge'', regardless of cut.

Thank you Ellen, I don''t think he saw that.

 

[Ellen]

Velcome.

 

[moonlite]

Hi everyone,

Sorry to jump into this discussion but this is exactly my concern as well. How we can tell what combination of CA +PA is ideal. I read many thread in this forum yet still can''t grasp this. In another topic Lorelei said " crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle". How about CA 33.5 and PA 40.8 ?


TIA.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 4/17/2009 9:58:18 AM
Author: moonlite
Hi everyone,

Sorry to jump into this discussion but this is exactly my concern as well. How we can tell what combination of CA +PA is ideal. I read many thread in this forum yet still can't grasp this. In another topic Lorelei said ' crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle'. How about CA 33.5 and PA 40.8 ?


TIA.

You can find the HCA incredibly useful for letting you know which angle combos will work well together. The figures you gave above can definitely be a good combination. The advice you refer to actually I quote from friend and expert John Pollard, these are meant to be used as a " cliff's notes" especially with rounded GIA figures in order to find harmonious crown and pavilion combos. Also as he says, sometimes a little give or take here and there can work well, so the HCA is good for seeing which proportion combos are worth further evaluation. Once you hit the more extreme ends of the pavilion angle ranges ( 40.6 or less and 41 degrees or more) careful evaluation is needed to make sure that there aren't any issues from these. Sometimes a steeper or shallower crown angle can help balance the situation however one needs to be careful due to obstruction issues which can be seen sometimes with pavilion angles of 40.6 or less and potential colour entrapment or leakage if you go much over 41 degrees. It isn't possible to make blanket statements on any combo, just be aware that some configurations need careful inspection to make sure of the best possible performance from that particular diamond.

Here are the numbers in question.

"As the above implies, configurations depend on each other. A little give here can still work with a little take there.

With that said, here's a "Cliff's Notes" for staying near Tolkowsky/ideal angles with GIA reports (their numbers are rounded): A crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle. If pavilion angle = 40.6 lean toward a 34.5-35.0 crown. If pavilion angle = 41 lean toward a 34.0-34.5 crown.

GIA "EX" in cut is great at its heart, but it ranges a bit wider than some people prefer, particularly in deep combinations (pavilion > 41 with crown > 35)."

So to sum up, there are various crown and pavilion angle combos which can work well together, some may have their favourites within a very tight range, but the fact is that there are myriad combos which can work.

 

[moonlite]

Date: 4/17/2009 10:00:09 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 4/17/2009 9:58:18 AM

Author: moonlite

Hi everyone,


Sorry to jump into this discussion but this is exactly my concern as well. How we can tell what combination of CA +PA is ideal. I read many thread in this forum yet still can''t grasp this. In another topic Lorelei said '' crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle''. How about CA 33.5 and PA 40.8 ?



TIA.

You can find the HCA incredibly useful for letting you know which angle combos will work well together. The figures you gave above can definitely be a good combination. The advice you refer to actually I quote from friend and expert John Pollard, these are meant to be used as a '' cliff''s notes'' especially with rounded GIA figures in order to find harmonious crown and pavilion combos. Also as he says, sometimes a little give or take here and there can work well, so the HCA is good for seeing which proportion combos are worth further evaluation.

Thanks for your prompt reply, Lorelei.
But dont you think 33.5 for CA is a bit shallow ? I''ve checked many diamonds and their CA''s are more than 34 most of the time.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 4/17/2009 10:09:00 AM
Author: moonlite

Date: 4/17/2009 10:00:09 AM
Author: Lorelei

Date: 4/17/2009 9:58:18 AM

Author: moonlite

Hi everyone,


Sorry to jump into this discussion but this is exactly my concern as well. How we can tell what combination of CA +PA is ideal. I read many thread in this forum yet still can't grasp this. In another topic Lorelei said ' crown angle of 34.0, 34.5 or 35.0 is usually safe with a 40.8 pavilion angle'. How about CA 33.5 and PA 40.8 ?



TIA.

You can find the HCA incredibly useful for letting you know which angle combos will work well together. The figures you gave above can definitely be a good combination. The advice you refer to actually I quote from friend and expert John Pollard, these are meant to be used as a ' cliff's notes' especially with rounded GIA figures in order to find harmonious crown and pavilion combos. Also as he says, sometimes a little give or take here and there can work well, so the HCA is good for seeing which proportion combos are worth further evaluation.

Thanks for your prompt reply, Lorelei.
But dont you think 33.5 for CA is a bit shallow ? I've checked many diamonds and their CA's are more than 34 most of the time.

No I think 33.5 is ok if the pavilion balances, my personal preference is to not go much shallower than that however. A shallower crown angle can make the diamond look bright and brilliant in some cases, however the trade off can be that the fire or coloured light can be down some. The preferred ranges many use here are as follows, and you will notice many of the top cut diamonds fall within these ranges.

crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6 - 41 degrees.

As I mentioned before, with the shallower ends of these figures ( 34/ 40.6) and steeper ( 35/41) it is important to inspect each diamond carefully for obstruction issues in some cases ( shallow 34/40.6) or leakage in the steeper range ( 35/41). As GIA round the numbers extra prudence is good in case the angles are in reality shallower or steeper still. Idealscope or ASET images are very useful for determining how well the angle ranges work together. See the page below for more info.

http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=education-performance

 

[moonlite]

No I think 33.5 is ok if the pavilion balances, my personal preference is to not go much shallower than that however. The preferred ranges many use here are as follows, and you will notice many of the top cut diamonds fall within these ranges.


crown angle - 34- 35 degrees

pavilion angle - 40.6 - 41 degrees.


As I mentioned before, with the shallower ends of these figures ( 34/ 40.6) and steeper ( 35/41) it is important to inspect each diamond carefully for obstruction issues in some cases ( shallow 34/40.6) or leakage in the steeper range ( 35/41). As GIA round the numbers extra prudence is good in case the angles are in reality shallower or steeper still. Idealscope or ASET images are very useful for determining how well the angle ranges work together. See the page below for more info.

Thanks Lorelei, bizou !! i think i will pass this diamond since BN does not offer any IS images. I think i will search for safer range of CA and PA figures.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 4/17/2009 10:20:08 AM
Author: moonlite

No I think 33.5 is ok if the pavilion balances, my personal preference is to not go much shallower than that however. The preferred ranges many use here are as follows, and you will notice many of the top cut diamonds fall within these ranges.


crown angle - 34- 35 degrees

pavilion angle - 40.6 - 41 degrees.


As I mentioned before, with the shallower ends of these figures ( 34/ 40.6) and steeper ( 35/41) it is important to inspect each diamond carefully for obstruction issues in some cases ( shallow 34/40.6) or leakage in the steeper range ( 35/41). As GIA round the numbers extra prudence is good in case the angles are in reality shallower or steeper still. Idealscope or ASET images are very useful for determining how well the angle ranges work together. See the page below for more info.

Thanks Lorelei, bizou !! i think i will pass this diamond since BN does not offer any IS images. I think i will search for safer range of CA and PA figures.

I am really glad to help!

 

[wa060708]

Hi everyone,

Here's some pictures of my ring, I haven't professional cleaned my ring for almost a year.

Please click on the link below:

[Link removed by Moderator] See forum policies

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 4/17/2009 7:52:50 PM
Author: wa060708
Hi everyone,

Here's some pictures of my ring, I haven't professional cleaned my ring for almost a year.

Please click on the link below:

Your diamond looks beautiful...except a little dirty! Even if you don't have it professionally cleaned, you can get a small ultrasonic cleaner to use at home weekly to keep your diamond looking its very best! Diamonds need to be kept clean to show their beauty!

 

[stone-cold11]

Looks like obstruction issue to me.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 4/17/2009 8:13:58 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
Looks like obstruction issue to me.

Since this ring has been purchased over a year ago, I really don''t see a lot of point in continuing to critique it. But I''ll just say for the benefit of newbies, this is one reason we say that some prefer the HCA score between 1 and 2 as opposed to under 1. I''ve never seen a stone on PS score a .3 on the HCA and this shows why it is not the best option.

 

[stone-cold11]

Date: 4/17/2009 8:29:05 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 4/17/2009 8:13:58 PM

Author: Stone-cold11

Looks like obstruction issue to me.

Since this ring has been purchased over a year ago, I really don''t see a lot of point in continuing to critique it. But I''ll just say for the benefit of newbies, this is one reason we say that some prefer the HCA score between 1 and 2 as opposed to under 1. I''ve never seen a stone on PS score a .3 on the HCA and this shows why it is not the best option.

The OP wants to know what is wrong with her stone, she is not happy with it. I am just telling her what is the likely cause of it.

 

[wa060708]

Is there any way to upgrade/trade in the diamond? I bought it from blue nile.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 4/17/2009 8:46:09 PM
Author: Stone-cold11

Date: 4/17/2009 8:29:05 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 4/17/2009 8:13:58 PM

Author: Stone-cold11

Looks like obstruction issue to me.

Since this ring has been purchased over a year ago, I really don''t see a lot of point in continuing to critique it. But I''ll just say for the benefit of newbies, this is one reason we say that some prefer the HCA score between 1 and 2 as opposed to under 1. I''ve never seen a stone on PS score a .3 on the HCA and this shows why it is not the best option.

The OP wants to know what is wrong with her stone, she is not happy with it. I am just telling her what is the likely cause of it.

I really wasn''t picking on you.

I''m sure you''re right. I just hated to add my post and add another criticism, yet people need to understand that extremely low HCA scores are not necessarily desirable.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 4/17/2009 9:06:23 PM
Author: wa060708
Is there any way to upgrade/trade in the diamond? I bought it from blue nile.

Hi Wao,

If DS says your diamond is beautiful then it must have quite a bit going for it as she has a good and experienced eye! However if you aren't happy with it in person, lets see what your options are.

BN do not offer upgrade polices as you probably know. So you have various options. You could offer it for sale on consignment with a company like www.pearlmansjewelers.com They take a percentage if a sale results.

Or you could try to trade it in against a diamond you like, see if they will take it in part exchange. Or you could try to sell it privately.