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What factors cause OECs to have "bubbly" flowery facets?

Moonie

Moonie

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
301
I've seen a lot of discussions on the site about checkerboard patterns, flowery facets, and bubbly OECs. I personally think my favorite OEC pattern is a bubbly flower facet in the middle like this one:


I also love this one and I see the flowery facets in the middle but it doesn't look quite as "bubbly"


What do you look for to have the more "bubbly" look and could someone explain what "checkboard" patterns mean compared to flowery facets? Can you have both?
 
The "bubbly" effect is what's known as kozibe. So going forward if you are looking at diamonds you can ask for diamonds that have a lot of kozibe and one of the diamond hunters can help you find one!
 
Those bubbly and flowery facets in OEC are pavilion main facets. They are the same facets that create the arrows in MRB.
The shape and appreance of pavilion main facets mainly depends on the table%, pavilion angle and lower girdle length.
It can range from checkerboard, flowers in OEC, fat arrows in Tranny, normal/skinny arrows in well cut MRB, and needles in poorly cut MRB or even almost completely dissapear.
There are so many variables and combinations in here. In short (grossly generalizing), you get the checkerboard pattern when the pavilion angle is low and the flowery pattern when the angle is moderately high. Because the checkboard pattern is common in shallow OECs, you often see it go dark in many photos (obstruction)
 
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YadaYadaYada said:
The "bubbly" effect is what's known as kozibe. So going forward if you are looking at diamonds you can ask for diamonds that have a lot of kozibe and one of the diamond hunters can help you find one!
Click to expand...

Actually I'm not a big fan of the kozibe effect...I think I describing what I'm talking about poorly haha. I was referring more to the fact that the center facets of OECs can look round and even more flower-like than more pointy flowery facets.
 
flyingpig said:
Those bubbly and flowery facets in OEC are pavilion main facets. They are the same facets that create the arrows in MRB.
The shape and appreance of pavilion main facets mainly depends on the table%, pavilion angle and lower girdle length.
It can range from checkerboard, flowers in OEC, fat arrows in Tranny, normal/skinny arrows in well cut MRB, and needles in poorly cut MRB or even almost completely dissapear.
There are so many variables and combinations in here. In short (grossly generalizing), you get the checkerboard pattern when the pavilion angle is low and the flowery pattern when the angle is moderately high. Because the checkboard pattern is common in shallow OECs, you often see it go dark in many photos (obstruction)
Click to expand...

Oh wow thank you!! That's super interesting. Based on my attached GIA report, would you be able to tell what this diamond's "facet" pattern would look like? I *think* it's flowery but sometimes it doesn't come through depending on the angle of the photo/video.
 

Attachments

Oh okay sorry @Moonie for the misunderstanding!
 
It's so great that we all like different looks!
I prefer a high pavilion angle, even though to others it may be too deep for their preference.
The shallower OECs/transitionals with slightly wider tables look great for stud earrings, IMO.
But for me there's no replacement for kozibe and being able to peer deeply into the stone.
It takes all kinds, right?
 
YadaYadaYada said:
Oh okay sorry @Moonie for the misunderstanding!
Click to expand...

Oh no worries, appreciate you weighing in and helping me! I actually didn't know about the kozibe effect until recently from Pricescope. I disliked the effect in some OMCs but didn't quite know how to articulate it to jewelers until I found out the name.
 
Interesting discussion. I just had one today with my jeweler. But I didn’t inquire further. I’m more of a visual person though. Words mean nothing to me. I respond only to pictures.

which of these is the bubbly one?

A2CDC314-D915-44C3-BD90-D4423B6FF1F8.jpeg
 
joelly said:
Interesting discussion. I just had one today with my jeweler. But I didn’t inquire further. I’m more of a visual person though. Words mean nothing to me. I respond only to pictures.

which of these is the bubbly one?

A2CDC314-D915-44C3-BD90-D4423B6FF1F8.jpeg
Click to expand...

None of them are. Top left is almost mrb, and the other one is early American cut, which is mrb with fatter arrow, result of smaller table and shorter lower half.
 
Moonie, the bubbly look is a result of proportions. You know how in movies where they project something in the air and the scientist can push/pull/modify whatever it is in a 3D model? all it takes is a little push or pull in many places to change the aesthetics of the oec. There can be many, many variations of proportions, so it's difficult to say exactly what will result in a cut that looks like that. I have noticed that around 46-49% table and 64% depth (with a variety of crown/pav angle) tend to look the most like that.
 
Moonie said:
Oh wow thank you!! That's super interesting. Based on my attached GIA report, would you be able to tell what this diamond's "facet" pattern would look like? I *think* it's flowery but sometimes it doesn't come through depending on the angle of the photo/video.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, I cannot tell it based on the report alone. GIA does not include pavilion depth/angle for OEC.
 
ForteKitty said:
None of them are. Top left is almost mrb, and the other one is early American cut, which is mrb with fatter arrow, result of smaller table and shorter lower half.
Click to expand...

@ForteKitty so is none of the above OEC then? Now I’m confused.
 
joelly said:
Interesting discussion. I just had one today with my jeweler. But I didn’t inquire further. I’m more of a visual person though. Words mean nothing to me. I respond only to pictures.

which of these is the bubbly one?

A2CDC314-D915-44C3-BD90-D4423B6FF1F8.jpeg
Click to expand...

Top left is a tranny in my book: large table.
The other is a shallow OEC.

A good example of "bubbly" OEC is August Vintage European Round which often has PA greater than 41.0
www.distinctivegem.com

0.9ct E VS2 August Vintage European Cut 74529717

Diamond Details Measurements 5.92 - 5.98 x 4.05 Cut Grade Ideal Polish Ideal Symmetry Ideal Fluorescence Negligible Culet Pointed Report Click here to view this diamonds AGS Report. Table 0.491 Depth 0.679
www.distinctivegem.com www.distinctivegem.com
 
flyingpig said:
Top left is a tranny in my book: large table.
The other is a shallow OEC.

A good example of "bubbly" OEC is August Vintage European Round which often has PA greater than 41.0
www.distinctivegem.com

0.9ct E VS2 August Vintage European Cut 74529717

Diamond Details Measurements 5.92 - 5.98 x 4.05 Cut Grade Ideal Polish Ideal Symmetry Ideal Fluorescence Negligible Culet Pointed Report Click here to view this diamonds AGS Report. Table 0.491 Depth 0.679
www.distinctivegem.com www.distinctivegem.com
Click to expand...

Oh I see. So one would buy an OEC which is designed (i.e. august vintage) to be bubbly instead of buying an antique diamond which is cut 100 yrs ago. Unless one is lucky enough to find an antique “bubbly” OEC.
 
Here is a "checkerboard" style OEC.

Victor Canera

www.victorcanera.com www.victorcanera.com
The pavilion angle is relative low at 40.8 and lower girdle length is short (though not indicated on the two).
 
flyingpig said:
Top left is a tranny in my book: large table.
The other is a shallow OEC.

A good example of "bubbly" OEC is August Vintage European Round which often has PA greater than 41.0
www.distinctivegem.com

0.9ct E VS2 August Vintage European Cut 74529717

Diamond Details Measurements 5.92 - 5.98 x 4.05 Cut Grade Ideal Polish Ideal Symmetry Ideal Fluorescence Negligible Culet Pointed Report Click here to view this diamonds AGS Report. Table 0.491 Depth 0.679
www.distinctivegem.com www.distinctivegem.com
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call the other a shallow oec, it likely has a depth higher than 63%. (we're talking about the one with the same three pics posted by Joelly, right?) It's Early American cut per Al Gilbertson. Shallow oecs have a distinct look because there'd be girdle reflections all around the center and it'd look "watery" and flat, see through.
 
flyingpig said:
Those bubbly and flowery facets in OEC are pavilion main facets. They are the same facets that create the arrows in MRB.
The shape and appreance of pavilion main facets mainly depends on the table%, pavilion angle and lower girdle length.
It can range from checkerboard, flowers in OEC, fat arrows in Tranny, normal/skinny arrows in well cut MRB, and needles in poorly cut MRB or even almost completely dissapear.
There are so many variables and combinations in here. In short (grossly generalizing), you get the checkerboard pattern when the pavilion angle is low and the flowery pattern when the angle is moderately high. Because the checkboard pattern is common in shallow OECs, you often see it go dark in many photos (obstruction)
Click to expand...

It would be fabulous if all these examples could be accompanied by a picture. I‘m not skilled enough, but maybe someone else is! :-)
 
flyingpig said:
Maybe I will do a thread with photos of OEC to trannies to super ideal MRB and some interesting GIA VG/G cut rounds.
Click to expand...

That would be fantastic! I was also wondering how „needles“ in fair cut MRBs would look and if they might also be related to a transition in cuts.
 
flyingpig said:
Maybe I will do a thread with photos of OEC to trannies to super ideal MRB and some interesting GIA VG/G cut rounds.
Click to expand...

That would really help. In case of an OEC, I need to look at it in person to decide. But still one needs a lot of help in this old cut world.

I’d really appreciate it if you would take on this task. Not an easy one.
 
@Moonie the N from parks if you really like it, is available...
 
I’d consider these two to be ‘checkerboard’
1B1F2DB3-0B52-4DF5-B7E1-1C49735653A7.jpegBE8D198D-A743-4893-B905-B2FE1DC42159.jpeg

and these two to be more like a pinwheel
0A399884-E81A-4A6D-A4AB-BD09A1947F9C.jpegB7FBD212-603A-43B9-BAD1-36674AE02F01.jpeg

I don’t have the most extensive experience with in person viewing of OEC
But have experienced seeing a stone or two that the camera could focus on the right depth and capture a nice floral center pattern, but the eye didn’t.

mine is wonky so it’s like a mutt crossbreed, depending on the viewing angle of what you’d see.
 
flyingpig said:
Maybe I will do a thread with photos of OEC to trannies to super ideal MRB and some interesting GIA VG/G cut rounds.
Click to expand...

That would be an excellent idea!
 
flyingpig said:
Maybe I will do a thread with photos of OEC to trannies to super ideal MRB and some interesting GIA VG/G cut rounds.
Click to expand...

What would be fantastic to accompany each pic is the cert stats: what the lab called it, table size; depth; and crown and pavilion angles, if available. Maybe seeing those stats with the picture will educate us as to what certain combinations may result in.
 
joelly said:
Interesting discussion. I just had one today with my jeweler. But I didn’t inquire further. I’m more of a visual person though. Words mean nothing to me. I respond only to pictures.

which of these is the bubbly one?

A2CDC314-D915-44C3-BD90-D4423B6FF1F8.jpeg
Click to expand...

Beautiful! Just based on the photos, the three in calipers almost seem transitional to me? But I'm going off on photos of transitionals that Jewels by Grace has posted of her stones.
 
ForteKitty said:
Moonie, the bubbly look is a result of proportions. You know how in movies where they project something in the air and the scientist can push/pull/modify whatever it is in a 3D model? all it takes is a little push or pull in many places to change the aesthetics of the oec. There can be many, many variations of proportions, so it's difficult to say exactly what will result in a cut that looks like that. I have noticed that around 46-49% table and 64% depth (with a variety of crown/pav angle) tend to look the most like that.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the super detailed explanation! I became really curious because I noticed that the first 2.23N OEC stone that Alex posted (video above) has the exact same table and depth as the OEC that I chose (47% table, 62.7% depth) but our overall measurements are a little different (I'm sure to be expected). In fact mine is a little more "spready" although by very very small amount. I guess the way you cut the diamond aside from table and depth would affect the "bubbly" look of the center facets?
 
PreRaphaelite said:
It's so great that we all like different looks!
I prefer a high pavilion angle, even though to others it may be too deep for their preference.
The shallower OECs/transitionals with slightly wider tables look great for stud earrings, IMO.
But for me there's no replacement for kozibe and being able to peer deeply into the stone.
It takes all kinds, right?
Click to expand...

For sure!! I love that antique stones are all different...I find that they were hand cut so romantic and I love that they have different flavors...can't go wrong <3
 
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