strmrdr
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What do you think of this vendor response?
- Thread starter lovelylulu
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There may have been a bit of a start... not very big, and not getting bigger either, at least on the public side - sure you know it on Stuller''s website. No mention of it on this forum either, although there are nice pictures with most listings. True enough, there are no numbers and no ideal rounds - taugh luck.
Along this little discussion alone, there''s already some sense of how many parties will have to be reconciled. But one can dream and such problems do not sound completely new or exotic - if it only made sense to try. Any hope for a small ''choire of converts''?
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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Date: 11/2/2005 11:03:16 AM
Author: strmrdr
Date: 11/2/2005 10:09:48 AM
Author: lovelylulu
Storm: I''m am searching for an EC stone with a budget of about $7500 - $8500. I would love to get the best cut while at the same time maximizing spread -- so i did a search for stones VVS1-VS2 and i''m more flexible going down in color to get a nice size stone...
thanks for offering to help
that one is easy :}
When your ready to buy contact:
www.goodoldgold.com
Id recomend WF also but you said you wont pay for someone to bring one in.
GOG would be more likely to accomidate that.
I can''t speak about ECs, but when I had contacted GOG during my e-ring search, I asked Jon about virtual stones. He told me that he would have to pass the shipping cost along to me to bring them in.
I''d get it in writing first that you won''t be responsible for shipping charges before asking to bring one in.
Regular Guy
Ideal_Rock
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As a remedy, perhaps someone should come up with a tool, something like a web site, that can help educate people. Hmmm.....
If my theory is right, with GIA shortly offering more data, although we will want more (always), I'm guessing this will take care of rounds. But, scenario 4 will require photos. Also, recall Neil's point...this effects everybody...not only internet vendors, but mom & pops who don't carry everything, but who could effectively show pictures of non-rounds, and based on an educated guess, after seeing a picture, call them up.
But, education is required, yes? Despite my being here 18 months I can't do all that much with them, but we're talking about professionals who work with diamonds every day. Despite the success of Pricescope, maybe we need to ask Garry, with his tools, and others with similar tools, to hit the road. Do you guys meet annually in Las Vegas? Perhaps a session needs to be run on using photographic tools, both to take pictures, and moreover, to be consumers of them, to read them. Could this drive the use of these tools by suppliers (by the way, are there 100 suppliers? 1000?), and the associated use by B&Ms. They certainly need this, too?
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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Neil, I think some of your enthusiasm is well-placed, and I think some of it's pie-in-the-sky.
I agree with making the Sarin data available if they are scanning the stones anyway. They aren't going to any extra work to provide that information up front. (No extra cost to provide that critical information).
Not the case with the pictures. You claim you could produce decent photos of a stone in less than 20 minutes. Assume a dealer has 1,000 stones he's moving. At 20 minutes per stone to produce these photographs, it would take 8.3 WEEKS----more than TWO MONTHS----to produce these images for every stone. Oh, and that's IF the person worked at a constant pace, took NO breaks, and worked 40-hour weeks.
So he has to pay someone a salary for more than 2 months just to produce these pictures, and he's going through all of this extra expense why? To POSSIBLY capture the 5% of the market that buys online?!?!?!?!! The other 95% of the market doesn't give a crap about photos because they are buying live at B&M stores.
The dealer has 2 choices: 1) pay of out HIS pocket to fund the picture effort and then try to pass that cost along through marking up each diamond a little bit (which may make his price higher than someone else's, by the way)-----all in the name of trying to appeal to less than 5% of the market (who is the most finicky, nit-picky portion of the market, too!).....OR 2) focus on the 95% of the market that doesn't need it and recover shipping costs from those folks who DO want to see it.
Hmmm.....which would you choose if you were the dealer? Yeah....me too.
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A manufacturer who produces 1000 stones per month is a pretty high volume producer. There’s no point in doing this with melee (small stones) after all. For argument sake, lets assume that they need to hire an entire new employee to deal with their production. What do they get for this?
1) Faster sell through. If stones are averaging $3,0000 each and the pipeline from the wheel to final collection is 2 months, this means that they’ve got $6,000,000 tied up in the system. By making it easier for their dealers to select the proper stones and thereby reducing the average hold time by a single day will save them $10,0000.
2) Customer loyalty. Dealers want to buy from suppliers who provide them with things that sell. It’s not over after the first deal. The way to really make money as a manufacturer/wholesaler is to have good relationships with your downstream dealers so they keep reordering. One of the fastest ways to a dealers heart it to have them notice that your stones are the ones that are selling and your competitors goods are just sitting in inventory. For a manufacturer who is trying to move 1,000/month through a dealer network, this is arguably their most important concern. Adding a single major dealer account is likely sufficient to justify the costs and losing one to the competition can be devastating.
3) Reduced returns. Every time someone buys or memos a stone and returns it they get saddled with a bunch of expenses. The time required to receive and process the order as well as book a return is already more costly by far than what we’re discussing but also the costs of shipping, the risks of loss or damage and inability to sell it to someone else while it’s in this process must be considered. There is also damage to their reputation with the dealer for not supplying what was needed/ordered. Dealers will tolerate a little bit of this but if they think it’s an honest mistake but if it’s a habit, they stop calling.
4) Branding. Dealers are eager, even desperate, to have things that make their store stand out from the crowd as being different and better than their competitors. This gives them the tools to do that. They can and do buy from suppliers who help them with this.
I think your assessment that only 5% of the buyers are interested in cut is incorrect. 5% buy online but far from all of these are cut snobs and far from all cut snobs buy online. Where did you get this number? This is a bigger issue for the b&m dealers than it is for the online folks. A mom and pop store that sells a few stones per week is doing pretty good. They can’t afford to buy the tools like a sarin, and are generally unwilling to take the time to learn to do the photography. Their job is to sell things, not to document them. In every other industry I can think of, the manufactures who participate in the burden of producing the advertising do better than those who don’t because they are in so much better of a position to do it. In the end, the only way for a manufactures to get sales is for their resellers get sales. If the sales go to the online houses and they happen to be a supplier to the online houses this is ok, otherwise it costs a sale every time it happens.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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Neil, you need to read more carefully. You completely misinterpreted what I said, and you''ve morphed it into something I did not say.
1) I never said that only 5% of buyers are interested in cut. What I said was that 5% of buyers buy online. (They are the ones who want pictures because they cannot see the diamond IN PERSON.)
Yes, plenty of people who value cut don''t buy online.....but they aren''t the ones typically wanting IS images, a few pictures of the diamond, etc. etc. They can see the diamond in person, and more importantly, their trusted jeweler can see it in person. They can both visually inspect the diamond together. This is what most B&M shoppers rely on. They may still want Sarin data (more on that below), but I''ve NEVER seen anyone in a B&M store ask for *pictures* of a diamond when the diamond itself is there.
2) If you had read more carefully, you''ll see I DID differentiate between providing the Sarin data and producing photographs. Yes, B&M customers may still want this data, and I see this increasing since many more are researching online first. It makes sense that they''d want this. If they suppliers are scanning stones anyway (which you say they are), then it''s no extra expense and no extra work to provide the rest of the data (crown/pav, etc) that a scan produces.
However, in person customers don''t ask for pictures of diamonds because they see the diamond in person. So, from a supplier/dealer perspective, since they aren''t already taking photographs for their own purposes, you''re proposing a bunch of additional work that will likely only be needed by a scant minority......5% of folks who won''t see the stone with their own eyes prior to purchase. Those are the folks who want pictures.
Where did I get the 5% number? There was a recent article in National Jewelers, I think, that quoted "20% of people research their diamond online, but only 5% buy online." That''s where the 5% comes from.
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I agree, we’re talking about two different things. The percentage of people who buy or research online doesn’t apply to the subject at hand.
IS photos are asked for, and not delivered, regularly at b&m stores. I anticipate that ASET images are going to be even more requested. Brilliancescope is almost exclusively used at b&m stores. H&A photographs are much more effective than showing a customer the stone through an h&a viewer, especially you they plan to talk about minute details. Quality scans are much more professional looking than faxes. Customers are almost always interested in taking paperwork and advertising materials with them when they leave the store and are still considering their purchase. By providing it, the store immediately advances their own credibility as an information source.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
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You know whats funny a while back the owner of a local b&m asked me
how he could better attract/retain customers.
My responce was tools and photos and never ever ever let the customer leave empty handed.
Just handing them a business card its going to get lost or tossed.
My idea was to have a database of stock with a couple images of each stone and print off a report for them on a color laser printer for them to take with them.
He didnt like the cost of $1000 for the printer, $1000 for the photo station and whatever it would cost to do the database.
Im betting it would pick up business 10%+ on people that come back to buy.
He would make the cost back in a month I bet.
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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Of course it applies, Neil.......you're arguing that people demand this information, but how can they demand it if they don't even know it exists? Seriously.......they find out about it ONLINE, so it's TOTALLY relevant to the discussion at hand how many people research online. Researching and buying are two different things, though, and that was the point above.
Regarding the comment "B&M stores are asked for IS images regularly".....well, I guess it depends on what constitutes your definition of "regularly". Considering your base of clients isn't necessarily representative of the norm.....because the folks who are coming to you are likely the cut-o-philes.
Since 80% of the diamond buying public never even comes to the internet to learn, it's hard for me to imagine how they even *know* what an idealscope is, much less what it shows. If I spent this coming Sunday afternoon in the chain stores, I'd bet I couldn't find even 2-3 people who know what an ASET is, either.
I guess I'd also have a hard time buying the notion that 80% of the buying public (who doesn't research) would rather see H&A photographs than the looking through the H&A viewer themselves. For most of them, the whole reason they are buying in person is for the "see it/touch it myself" tactile purchase. Hell, most of them will just think it's "cool" that they can "see" the pattern....most of them don't have any inkling about "standards" of the pattern or what a cleft is, etc. etc.
Right on.....but a dealer doesn't care about any individual store's credibility----especially if the DEALER is expected to build the store's credibility on HIS dime.
Your call in this thread has been "dealers should provide this information up front" (to help stores, etc.). As a consumer who values that information, of course I agree with you.
However, as a practical matter looking at it from the DEALER side, I believe there is no incentive on the DEALER end of the equation. Unless there is an economic incentive to the dealer, he doesn't care. There are enough other channels he can move his stones through that don't require all that extra work and expense....and those channels FAR outnumber the ones who want the information. The lack of information won't change until the dealer reaches a point because he's suffering without it.......that such a majority of people demand it that he cannot get by without it anymore.
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Storm, you are right on the mark. When a client leaves my office he will at a minimum have a folder explaining the intracacies of the ideal cut along with color and clarity. I buy them from J. Landau company and they do a nice job. Pictures are commonly taken and printed also, right with the client, which really amkes it more fun.
We have a very high client happy rating with our local traffic because we make it more fun than the big box and mall type stores. Go back to your friend and tell him to really think about taking you more seriously.
Wink
We have a very high client happy rating with our local traffic because we make it more fun than the big box and mall type stores. Go back to your friend and tell him to really think about taking you more seriously.
Wink
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I have to agree, but I can tell you that the number who research now is way more than 20% and those days are coming. Soon the dealers will find that they must take part of the action if they wish to continue to sell their stones quickly. Their financial incentive will be keeping up with those who do provide the information.
Wink
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Interesting thread.
Alj''s comments are key and right on.
Neil... while what you suggest for dealers would be a dream come true (especially for Inet only vendors who only list virtual inventories) it''ll be a cold day in hell before we see any of this happen. How long has it been now that Rapnet was featuring the option for dealers to post Sarin files with 3d models? How many dealers actually do it of the hundreds who list their inventories? 1 or 2 perhaps if you can find em and the stones are generally poopers? It has never caught on. Alj is being conservative in thinking that they''d at least provide Sarin data but even amongst site holders who do actually own Sarin''s, sometimes getting this is like pulling teeth. As has been stated, dealers could give a hoot about building the business of their distributors especially if it requires them to go out of their way. If a distributor wants to provide their clients with extra information, never should they be reliant upon anyone else, especially suppliers.
Another thought ... if a supplier was to invest in the tools, technologies and education to bring this data forward what''s to say they will not bypass their distributors and cut them out of the equation altogether?
I''ve seen this happen on a personal level 3x since I''ve been selling on the net. Dealers who are more than willing to cut the throats of their distributors at the first chance they get?
This is why the selling should be left to the retailers and the wholesaling left to the wholesalers. I say leave them out of the selling equation altogether beyond providing top level service to their distributors. It''s when that line gets blurred that things begin to go awry.
Peace,
Alj''s comments are key and right on.
Neil... while what you suggest for dealers would be a dream come true (especially for Inet only vendors who only list virtual inventories) it''ll be a cold day in hell before we see any of this happen. How long has it been now that Rapnet was featuring the option for dealers to post Sarin files with 3d models? How many dealers actually do it of the hundreds who list their inventories? 1 or 2 perhaps if you can find em and the stones are generally poopers? It has never caught on. Alj is being conservative in thinking that they''d at least provide Sarin data but even amongst site holders who do actually own Sarin''s, sometimes getting this is like pulling teeth. As has been stated, dealers could give a hoot about building the business of their distributors especially if it requires them to go out of their way. If a distributor wants to provide their clients with extra information, never should they be reliant upon anyone else, especially suppliers.
Another thought ... if a supplier was to invest in the tools, technologies and education to bring this data forward what''s to say they will not bypass their distributors and cut them out of the equation altogether?
I''ve seen this happen on a personal level 3x since I''ve been selling on the net. Dealers who are more than willing to cut the throats of their distributors at the first chance they get?
This is why the selling should be left to the retailers and the wholesaling left to the wholesalers. I say leave them out of the selling equation altogether beyond providing top level service to their distributors. It''s when that line gets blurred that things begin to go awry.
Peace,
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Waitaminute... doe sit seem odd to anyone else that so many pass by online and so few stop? Maybe it is simply irrelevant too...
I would however drop two notes here:
#1. No surprise searching online is so hot
It costs allot less and it is infinitely more convenient to click on a site than challenge 100 cranky sellers to talk and theorize about their merchandise
#2. Is the information online applicable on the ground?
This is not even the hottest topic here, and you''d think that the vast majority of online on-lookers (those who go back and buy on the ground) wouldn''t care for anything but. How come?
I have no other basis than intuition for this, but it may just because diamonds shown online are not directly comparable with the impressions of the same buying on the ground that discounts are expected online for all but the cut-branded goods. I remember some study saying that cut branding is a crucial online ingredient, and the discounts online seem to be an industry issue although I have no way to check directly, etc.
No wonder there is this new species of ''internet diamonds'' - to me, this is a brilliant description for an alien encounter with diamonds online.
aljdewey
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In premise, I agree with this idea. This argument works FINE for inhouse stones, but it dies for brokered stones.
Stores don't have the stones themselves, so it's not in their power to produce these images. Add this to the list of reasons it doesn't make sense for the stores to invest in all the equipment: You can't scan a stone you don't have! None of that equipment works unless/until you bring the diamond in......and at that point, again, people can see with their eyes, so they aren't as reliant on photos. Sarins, maybe, but photos? Nope.
With brokered stones, the DEALER is the one in possession of the stone. So he's the one that has the power to produce those images.....but he has no incentive to do it. It's not worth the trouble or expense when there are so many others ways to move the stone without doing it.
To your point, though, Storm, I DO think there are things a B&M has the power to provide. They can make up little info packets or a small brochure with a little bit of material on why cut is important and a few pointers on how to determine a fine cut. Very, very topical stuff. This would show they are trying to be transparent and trying to help the customer learn and inspire vendor confidence.
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Date: 11/3/2005 3:55:59 PM
Author: Rhino
How long has it been now that Rapnet was featuring the option for dealers to post Sarin files with 3d models? How many dealers actually do it of the hundreds who list their inventories? 1 or 2 perhaps if you can find em and the stones are generally poopers?
Is thee any way to record parameters from cutting without measuring the stones ex-post? Purely in theory.
If a distributor wants to provide their clients with extra information, never should they be reliant upon anyone else, especially suppliers.
Acquiring all those machines, bells and whistles looks like the former cold war arms race to me! GOG winning, of course
I don''t want to be a pain. These things are also interesting from a theoretical perspective, and that is why this thread has such a grip. It''s not every day that I get to see years of research walking by one brilliant example after the next and it is such a thrill!
Thank you for your patience.
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Hmm, I think there may be a misunderstanding about how the market is working for physical stores. When you come in to talk with me about diamonds I don''t show you a list of diamonds available on the net. I will have talked with you and brought in stones for you to look at either on your first visit or on your second.
I don''t know how it works where you live, but at least here in Boise there is not a lot of "brokered" stone selling from lists. That is one of the advantages of going to a physical store, to actually see the diamonds. There would be no excuse for me not to take a picture for you if you came in to the office to see a stone.
Wink
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I’m not sure I agree that this won’t occur. I’m more inclined to think of it as inevitable and the real question is when, not if it will happen. I have faith in the enlightened self-interest of the manufacturers. If they can make their products sell better by investing in promotional materials, they’ll do it.
Rhino,
A large number of companies have discovered that it helps to provide their dealers with promotional materials. This includes everything from the car manufacturers to Pepsi to Rolex. Debeers does it. Lazare Kaplan does it. The reason is simple. It’s difficult for a car dealer to produce as high a quality of materials as Toyota can. A consumer will visit the dealerships of several makers and compare these materials as part of their shopping decision. The better the materials are, the higher the chances are that they’ll end up buying the correct brand. In the end, both a dealership and a manufacturer end up with a sale. As recently as 10 years ago, what I’m suggesting was simply impossible. Jewelers didn’t have the internet MS Word and high quality color printers. Manufacturers weren’t so well organized, digital cameras were expensive and the stones weren’t quite so individually recognizable. Consumers weren’t quite so demanding for detailed information. These trends are doing nothing but accelerate. As a manufacturer it seems like it would be in their best interest to be on the leading edge. If their competitors are a bit slow and obstinate about it, this is even better.
Neil Beaty
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I hear where you''re coming from Neil. Believe me ... I would love to see more of what you''re asking. It would save us time and money if we saw it being done and help make things run more efficiently with regards to getting preliminary data to both us and the client which helps determine if a stone is worth calling in or not.
I just look at the current situation of things and while I consider myself an optimist, I don''t see it happening anytime soon.
We do biz with quite a few suppliers and sadly most do not even have a Sarin. We''ve had to find and hire outside companies to provide this most basic of information (similar to Elmyr) for us before spending the funds to call in a stone. We do have some manufacturers who are willing to spend the necessary funds and make investments to help better serve us but unfortunately these are far and few.
We''ll see what happens and I hope I am wrong but I''m not holding my breath. Experience shows me that this industry is painstakingly slow. As Alj has said earllier, forget about all the pictures, etc. Let''s at least see Sarin''s w 3d models from these dealers. That would be a quantum leap above what they are doing now.
Peace,
I just look at the current situation of things and while I consider myself an optimist, I don''t see it happening anytime soon.
We do biz with quite a few suppliers and sadly most do not even have a Sarin. We''ve had to find and hire outside companies to provide this most basic of information (similar to Elmyr) for us before spending the funds to call in a stone. We do have some manufacturers who are willing to spend the necessary funds and make investments to help better serve us but unfortunately these are far and few.
We''ll see what happens and I hope I am wrong but I''m not holding my breath. Experience shows me that this industry is painstakingly slow. As Alj has said earllier, forget about all the pictures, etc. Let''s at least see Sarin''s w 3d models from these dealers. That would be a quantum leap above what they are doing now.
Peace,
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As I understand it, pretty much all of the manufacturers have Sarin or similar machines and they use them extensively. The big ones have many. Every stone gets examined prior to sending it to the lab as part of the decision about which lab to send it to. By the way, the labs all use these tools as well. It’s the importers and traders that don’t have them. They shouldn’t have to, for the same reasons that the retailers shouldn’t have to.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
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Hi Ana!
Peace,
If there is I don''t know about it. With a Sarin or OGI and some good database training one can extrapolate all the data they need to record for a searchable database. I don''t think this can be done on the manufacturers level without some kind of technology to do it.
Very true. Always a pleasure to hear from you Ana.
Peace,
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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Wink, there isn''t a misunderstanding. You aren''t like most B&M stores.....at least not those in my area. You carry several branded ideal diamonds, and some non-branded H&A stones.
Here in my area, not the case, and I live North of Boston. The primary jeweler didn''t have a single AGS0 stone in the store.....he had to ask what I wanted and go bring one in on memo. And it was ONE.......one stone. I really had hoped to see 2-3 stones for comparison, but he brought only one.
The other two didn''t have them either, but I didn''t bother asking to have anything brought in after my first experience. I decided it was easier to find a selection online, so I stopped local shopping.
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Boy, that''s for sure. Neither is Rhino. These guys are so far ahead of the pack on these issues that you can barely recognize them as the same industry. I''m sure they would benefit from this sort of thing but not nearly as much as the rest of the high quaity b&m''s. There''s a certain selection that are just stupid and who wouldn''t want to supply customers with good information even if they had it. Others are more enlightened. They don''t do it because they can''t. These are the ones I''m thinking about.
Ana,
Speaking of companies that do their job well, you''re right that Stuller is already doing some of this. So is Infinity. There are others. I''ll venture to guess that those companies will continue to do well in the next few years, like they have in the last few, and that the Luddites will continue to wring their hands and wonder what happened. How come Wink, Gary, Rhino, John et.al. are walking away with their customers?
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
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WOW! That is SAD! I hear jewelers complaining all the time that they are loosing business to the net, yet when I hear a story such as yours it amazes me that they have not figured it out. In my area there are several great jewelers who do a good job of having what people want to see in their stores, I did not realise that this was not the standard.
Thank you for reminding me how dangerous it is to assume that just because something is done one way locally that it is done that way all over.
Wink
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JohnQuixote
Ideal_Rock
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I thought about this thread and the confusion new consumers face when they get different answers about availability of info. Regulars are aware of these things, but newcomers may not be, so I compiled a piece for the PS journal as an overview.
Getting information: In-stock diamonds versus diamonds located with suppliers
Getting information: In-stock diamonds versus diamonds located with suppliers
belle
Super_Ideal_Rock
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lovelylulu
Ideal_Rock
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- Status
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How Are Diamonds Made? Natural vs Lab-Created Explained - 08/05
Top Wedding Ring Brands for Every Style and Budget
Top Wedding Ring Brands for Every Style and Budget - 08/05
Where to Buy Lab Grown Diamonds: Best Places Compared
Where to Buy Lab Grown Diamonds: Best Places Compared - 08/05
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