What do you think of this vendor response?

[Lorelei]

Interesting discussion. As a consumer I think that as many, myself included want a picture to give me an idea of a prospective purchase, it would be good for these vendors who won''t, to try to find some middle ground and send pictures to those who request them. They are missing out on a number of sales to the folk who want them. I think picture requests will snowball as more and more get educated and realize the benefits of buying online - they want an idea of what they are getting before plunking down the money. That is the drawback of not being able to see the diamond in person. A picture can mean a thousand words. The refundable deposit is a good idea and would help weed out the serious purchaser from the " just looking at the moment" folk, however a picture might help create sales from them too if they take one look and say that''s the one.

 

[lovelylulu]

storm: i agree, but do you know the answer to this: the reason that i contacted this vendor was because they were the only one listed as being a source for this stone -- so are they the only one that has access to this stone? because sometimes, i think that it''s more about finding the perfect stone, rather than working with only the most PS=popular vendors...

 

[pricescope]

It is not a hi-tech but rather inert and conservative industry.

We cannot get suppliers to provide even crown and pavilion angles. Percentage of people who buy in the net is still small. Most of them are buying rounds and those who request pictures are just a minor part of buyers. Good quality diamonds become more difficult to get and dealers know that they will sell a diamond anyway. Why bother?

Here is an anecdotal story. Garry found 9ct boulder from one of the NY dealers - over $200,000. He asked for 3D Sarin. They charged him separately for that. Then he wired the money and they didn't bother even to notify $X00,000 client that the money got through and the diamond was shipped.

It was Yom Kippur eve and Garry asked me to call them to see what is going on. They said the diamond was shipped yesterday but didn't even have a tracking number available at that moment...

My point is this is not how Dell operate. That's why company like Blue Nile with good processes and follow-ups is successful.

 

[denverappraiser]

Lulu,

I’m pretty sympathetic of the dealers problem although they certainly handled it badly. I agree with Gary that he probably has no reasonable way to get what you want. What I’m picking on is the reasons why he can’t get it. The manufacturers and the big wholesalers are pinching their pennies and not their dollars. They don’t see the payoff of putting a system into place and they don’t trust their dealers to use the data reasonably if they supply it.

If the stone is ugly, they would prefer to not point this out and the dealer should be selling with other methods. I understand this, but the retailer doesn’t need to show the picture if they don’t want. Some dealers are pretty good at selling ugly diamonds and some customers like them because they’re less expensive. What’s wrong with that? It’s what they’re looking for. Having Whiteflash or Wink call in the stone, take a photo and a scan and return it because it’s ugly does nobody any good, even if someone gets to collect $40 for it. Trust me, this is no profit center. Listing it on one of the virtual lists at an attractive price where someone sells it, sends it to one of the appraisers who then rejects it is no better. This all costs time, shipping fees and additional risks for the dealer. The only winner is me.

Everyone else comes away looking like a fool and no one gets a sale. On the other hand, giving the dealers who are skilled at selling awesome goods the tools to do just can only increase your chances of selling them while reducing the frequency of sending a stone that gets rejected for reasons that should have been spotted in advance.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 11/2/2005 9:08:57 AM
Author: Pricescope

That's why company like Blue Nile with good processes and follow-ups is successful.

Retailers everywhere are wringing their hands because the Internet dealers are eating their lunch and they can't figure out why.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[lovelylulu]

Thanks everyone for all the explanations!

i know that there are always trade-offs -- so if buying online because of the savings is what i want to do, then i will have to expect that i will run into issues like this. forunately, many who have done this before me have found wonderfully helpful and trustworthy vendors that have allowed them to find their *perfect* stone. I fully realize this is a business, but to an individual customer buying a diamond for an engagement ring is such an important and meaningful purchase, armed with some fine PS recommendations i''ll definately be able to find a vendor to help me.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/2/2005 8:57:23 AM
Author: lovelylulu
storm: i agree, but do you know the answer to this: the reason that i contacted this vendor was because they were the only one listed as being a source for this stone -- so are they the only one that has access to this stone? because sometimes, i think that it''s more about finding the perfect stone, rather than working with only the most PS=popular vendors...

Which stone is it?
We can sugest alternatives for either the dealer or the diamond.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 11/2/2005 9:24:57 AM
Author: lovelylulu
Thanks everyone for all the explanations!

i know that there are always trade-offs -- so if buying online because of the savings is what i want to do, then i will have to expect that i will run into issues like this. forunately, many who have done this before me have found wonderfully helpful and trustworthy vendors that have allowed them to find their *perfect* stone. I fully realize this is a business, but to an individual customer buying a diamond for an engagement ring is such an important and meaningful purchase, armed with some fine PS recommendations i''ll definately be able to find a vendor to help me.

Unfortunately, this problem is no better on the street. In fact, it''s usually worse. Yes, you are likely to face this issue again but finding the right dealer helps in dealing with it.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA)ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[lovelylulu]

Storm: I''m am searching for an EC stone with a budget of about $7500 - $8500. I would love to get the best cut while at the same time maximizing spread -- so i did a search for stones VVS1-VS2 and i''m more flexible going down in color to get a nice size stone...

thanks for offering to help

 

[Regular Guy]

Neil,

Interesting to see you so excitable.

Lovelylulu,

Where you say: "I fully realize this is a business, but to an individual customer buying a diamond for an engagement ring is such an important and meaningful purchase, armed with some fine PS recommendations i''ll definately be able to find a vendor to help me...."

Yes, I think this is true, and also Diamond Expert''s appreciation for reasonably conservative practices is of course reasonable, too.

At this point, the businesses seem to succeed based on our mutual naivete. 18 months ago, I just asked Jim at DCD to call in a diamond for me to consider, and by gum he just did it with an e-mail. At the time, I''m not sure I appreciated the difference between a virtual diamond and one in-house; not sure if I would have acted differently at the time if I did. There are values to be found on those virtual lists, and I do think I found one.

Consistent with Pricescope''s point, I do think that current procedures are reasonable for their existing markets, more or less, probably, although there''s room for an enterprising mfg in India to add $1 to costs, you would think. But, to the extent a large number of buyers will pick up what''s on the shelf, based on the accepted tradition of having provided depth and table info, the decision for even the mfg to expend the additional time should be based on a belief that it''s a value added proposition, i.e. that they''d make more money providing more data over getting more diamonds out the door, if that''s the nature of the perceived trade-off.

Despite Pricescope''s relative success, and moreover, AGS''s considerable success, as well, such that the concept of "ideal", while out there, and having been associated with crown & pavilion angles as well (nevermind that Garry Holloway has refined that concept, and AGS has improved their original concept)...still...with this info "in the air," still, the perceived need to have crown & pavilion angles readily available, let alone pictures, seems at least somewhat rarefied.

With even the experts in the industry not singing the same song on the parameters of cut, and consistent with this, documenting this for their customers (whether they are jewelers or appraisers), it''s no surprise there''s some cacophony about what to expect to be available to shoppers. I''ve whined plenty here on the sad shape customers are in with respect to going to even a nearby expert appraiser. Martin Fuller in DC metro has been on a recent iteration of lists from USA Certed as the top in the country...he''s certainly widely respected locally...and he shares with me that he finds it inappropriate to try to keep up with changing devices for measuring, which them just become paperweights on his desk. And, he''s not unlike the majority of appraisers who bothered to answer Leonid''s survey of their services. Likewise, when at a recent gem show, I found myself stymied by the number of diamond vendors who got a crook in their voice, describing the different types of cuts of diamonds, some of which are called "ideal," and some of which are called "hearts and arrows," with them routinely handling and selling these stones for thousands of dollars, and seeming rubes for it, unable to keep up with the new lingo their customers are chasing after them for. Is it unlike going into a furniture store, and inquiring as to the construction under the seat in a nice chair?

Date: 11/2/2005 9:08:57 AM
Author: Pricescope

We cannot get suppliers to provide even crown and pavilion angles.

What I''m expecting, however, is a change. The change to at least document routinely crown & pavilion angles, it will be caused by GIA''s routinely noting them, and it should begin...in less than 2 months. Is anyone gearing up for this? Will Leonid''s charts capture them...I presume it may be as simple as adding 2 columns. Will the minor facets be added, too? Probably, since those 70% of diamonds supposedly with GIA docs will carry them.

Guys in the know, who''s job it is to capture this info, must have heard about these changes coming already, no?

 

[valeria101]

Date: 11/2/2005 8:56:49 AM
Author: Lorelei

I think picture requests will snowball ...That is the drawback of not being able to see the diamond in person.

The refundable deposit is a good idea and would help weed out the serious purchaser,

however a picture might help create sales from them too if they take one look and say that''s the one.

And

there''s still no protocol to compare a couple of stones at a time...

&

at best you get a third party (seller or appraiser) to see them for you. Lining choices on the kitchen table to choose from is quite an unusual feat. Would you guys hate that? Perhaps this is the last great shopping thing impossible online.

Oh well... it''s just me dreaming again

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/2/2005 10:09:48 AM
Author: lovelylulu
Storm: I''m am searching for an EC stone with a budget of about $7500 - $8500. I would love to get the best cut while at the same time maximizing spread -- so i did a search for stones VVS1-VS2 and i''m more flexible going down in color to get a nice size stone...


thanks for offering to help

that one is easy :}

When your ready to buy contact:

www.goodoldgold.com

Id recomend WF also but you said you wont pay for someone to bring one in.
GOG would be more likely to accomidate that.
GOG has brought in a lot of nice EC''s over the years.

 

[lovelylulu]

I''ve also been told that james allen/dirt cheap diamonds has access to some really remarkable stones -- comments?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/2/2005 11:13:00 AM
Author: lovelylulu
I''ve also been told that james allen/dirt cheap diamonds has access to some really remarkable stones -- comments?

I dont recall seeing a EC that they have brought in and im not sure of their policy on calling them in.
They are worth looking into.

 

[Lorelei]

LULU, also my vendor Michael Jay Fifth Avenue www.michaeljay.com has a huge choice of EC's and he sends out pictures gladly, I recently purchased from him and he was wonderful, he really knows his stuff. He is right in the heart of the diamond district so he can obtain almost anything you want.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 11/2/2005 11:03:16 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 11/2/2005 10:09:48 AM
Author: lovelylulu
Storm: I'm am searching for an EC stone with a budget of about $7500 - $8500. I would love to get the best cut while at the same time maximizing spread -- so i did a search for stones VVS1-VS2 and i'm more flexible going down in color to get a nice size stone...


thanks for offering to help

that one is easy :}

When your ready to buy contact:

www.goodoldgold.com

Id recomend WF also but you said you wont pay for someone to bring one in.
GOG would be more likely to accomidate that.
GOG has brought in a lot of nice EC's over the years.

Pardon the clarification. There is only one circumstance where Whiteflash charges a customer for bringing in a requested diamond:

If a customer requests a diamond through Whiteflash that is not in our on-site inventory we will bring it in for our own inspection and approval before selling it. If all checks out and the customer makes the purchase there is no charge to the customer for bringing it in.

If our inspection turns up something wrong, or the diamond does not meet the specs listed by the supplier, we ship it back and there is no charge to the customer.

If all is well with the diamond, but the customer declines the purchase there is a charge for the shipping to/from the supplier (the charge is equal to what it cost us to bring it in).

 

[lovelylulu]

John thanks for the clarification. I want to clarify too, i WOULD pay the shipping costs to see a diamond at an appraisers -- i just wouldn''t go through that process without first seeing some PICTURES of the stone so i know which ones that i would want sent before putting everyone through the trouble...

 

[strmrdr]

hey sir John this situation meets that criteria.
I wasnt dissing WF, in this case unless there is a hidden stash of EC''s that arent on the website there would be a fee for bringing in a stone to WF for pictures which as i pointed out earlier is applied to the purchase of the stone if its bought.

 

[strmrdr]

I do see i did diss Gary (diamondexpert) however.
Seems if your serious and working with him he would work within your wants from what he posted in this thread earlier.
He is a kicken vendor Iv bought a bunch of gemstones from him :}

Sorry bout that Gary.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 11/2/2005 11:31:17 AM
Author: lovelylulu
John thanks for the clarification. I want to clarify too, i WOULD pay the shipping costs to see a diamond at an appraisers -- i just wouldn''t go through that process without first seeing some PICTURES of the stone so i know which ones that i would want sent before putting everyone through the trouble...

Hence, Neil''s solution. Lovelylulu, I hope you''ll find a more immediate solution, of course. My comments would only apply to rounds, from Pricescope we do see you should have pictures over numbers to do an assessment for fancies, and so the question becomes if a big enough audience can be envisioned, if not created, so that a mfg will more readily provide these.

Meanwhile, I hope you can work out a negotiated agreement with a vendor of choice.

 

[denverappraiser]

Ira,

I''m a pretty excitable boy. It just sort of amazes me that this all continues to be an issue. I know a lot of wholesalers and, in general, they are having a pretty tough go of it. Margins are shrinking, supplies are difficult and it’s getting tougher and tougher to sell through their regular channels. When I point out that they are at least partially to blame for the fact that b&m stores are seen as less informative than internet based retailers and that this is a large piece of what drives customers away, I get blank stares and muttered excuses. ‘Taint their problem. Lulu is trying to spend $9000 here and it’s quite likely that it’s going to happen! What’s left to decide is the details of what she will buy and who she will buy it from. There’s a pretty good sale on the table here and both a retailer and a wholesaler just lost out over a topic that should have been resolved before it even started. Neither one even knows what happened. This goes on all the time and the only people who can really resolve it are the manufacturers and wholesalers who are creating those virtual lists. If that doesn''t make it their problem, I don''t know what would.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 11/2/2005 8:15:44 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 11/2/2005 12:10:27 AM
Author: Wink

Yes, and they charge about US $50 per stone to do it. Taking the pictures often demanded by Internet clients is very time consuming and someone must be paid to do it, it is much more then a minute per stone. Many of the large online vendors sell thousands of stones per month, it would cost them enormous amounts of money to do this, although most of us smaller vendors do it as a matter of course.

Wink

It''s not the vendor who should be doing it, it''s the manufacturer. I''m confident that I could design a series of photo stations to take a photomicrograph or three, darkfield photo, advertising photo, IS photo, ASET photo, Hearts, Arrows, scan the report, Sarin/OGI/Helium the stone and upload all of the data to the internet in less than 20 minutes per stone. The resultant images would be better than 95% of what is currently available although they wouldn''t be the best of the best. They could be used by every dealer who wants it so they don''t need to each redo all of this work. There are plenty of people who are better at this sort of equipment design than I and they may be able to both reduce the time and increase the quality considerably. Yes, someone needs to be paid for this. Since most of the stones are being cut in India, we''re talking about 20 minutes of Indian labor rates. That''s less than a dollar to increase the saleability of a product that''s being sold for thousands or even tens of thousands.

The result is to empower the dealers. If all they need to sell a stone is a price list and a fax of a fax of a lab report, bully for them. They don''t need anything else and they can ignore it. Other dealers would sell more if given the right suport and they will be selling the products of the companies that provide them with that support. Importantly for the manufacturers, they will be selling more of YOUR goods instead of something listed by that guy with the fax machine. This seems like it''s worth a buck.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

I totally agree with you. Maybe one of our world travelors, like Gary Holloway can communicate our needs to his friends in India. It would certainly make life easier. I almost hope it does not happen though since I work with one of the few vendors to bother with this currently and it makes life nice when dealing with his stones. If they do this in India for a buck it will make it harder for him to cover the $50 that Elmyr charges him. Still, for the consumer and for those who sell from lists that they have never seen, this would be a tremendous boon!

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

Wink,

Something tells me that the manufacturers who strive to do it well will still stand head and shoulders above the others. Elmyr would face some competition but this just might make them better. Perhaps they should be the ones going to India putting this deal together.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Mara]

when we bought our first diamond way back when a few years ago, offline, we had a copy/scan of the GIA cert (and a small Sarin readout) but after purchasing the diamond the cert was mailed to us from Israel I think. so we purchased without having the actual cert in our hands but we had the copy of it so we at least were able to check numbers, etc and our appraiser had something to work with to double check the stone, etc etc.

i would buy with a copy or scan of a cert and more information (aka pictures, numbers, sarins etc) but that is kind of the minimum requirement! especially for online.

 

[JohnQuixote]

In the macro, internet sales are still not a significant enough percentage of total sales to drive change yet. It's a twofold problem: Fighting decades of 'how it was done' as well as a fundamental resistance to the movement that is calling for the shift (no matter how sound that decision will ultimately be).

1 - Many long-of-tooth suppliers have traditionally done business with 'live' retail stores who have never had a need for photos, reflectors, etc, and only recently are asking for Sarin reports. 2 - The fact that they have not needed those things for a generation or three, coupled with the air of resistance from some influential factions within the trade to internet sales in general, causes a ‘dig in the heels’ mentality. This is what causes your frustration, Neil. As internet sales increase some suppliers are understanding the need to provide more information digitally to internet vendors. There are others who still do business without even owning a Sarin machine (much less photos or reflectors).

Internet vendors who base their business model on drop-shipping a diamond from a supplier sight-unseen to the purchaser are especially handicapped by the suppliers who don’t provide these things.

So for customers... If you’re looking at a diamond from the virtual database, how do you know what is available from the supplier and vendor combo-platter you have chosen? In most cases you don’t. That is why it’s easy to get confused.

Scenario 1: The vendor owns the diamond, has it in-house and has all lab reports and photos done and online. Done.
Scenario 2: The vendor owns the diamond, has it in-house and does not provide all online, but will by request. Done.
Scenario 3: A supplier owns the diamond and will provide the vendor with lab reports, Sarin and photos by request. Almost done.
Scenario 4: A supplier owns the diamond and will provide the vendor with lab reports and Sarin, but no photos. This could take a little time and may require bringing the diamond in if the customer wants photos (see scenario 5).
Scenario 5: A supplier owns the diamond, and will provide the lab report - but no Sarin and no photos…The vendor is willing to bring the diamond in by request to analyze it and take photos, etc (charges may apply depending on policies)…This does take time.
Scenario 6: A supplier owns the diamond, and will not provide anything beyond specs…The vendor is willing to bring the diamond in by request to get the lab report, analyze it, take photos, etc (again, charges may apply)…This could take time and there is more risk that the diamond will not meet exact expectations.
Scenario 7: A supplier owns the diamond but the vendor is a drop-ship only vendor and cannot provide anything further than what the supplier is willing to provide. This is risky to the buyer and the vendor, as the vendor will never see the diamond he/she is selling.

There are many, many suppliers and what they will provide varies depending on their policies. Combine that unknown with the many different vendor policies of drop-shipping sight unseen versus bringing it in for inspection and you have an alphabet soup of different scenarios. No wonder customers scratch their heads.

 

[Kaleigh]

Didn''t windowshopper get her EC from DCD James Allen?? I''m pretty sure she did. Oh well good luck!!

 

[belle]

Date: 11/2/2005 1:08:33 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

In the macro, internet sales are still not a significant enough percentage of total sales to drive change yet. It''s a twofold problem: Fighting decades of ''how it was done'' as well as a fundamental resistance to the movement that is calling for the shift (no matter how sound that decision will ultimately be).

1 - Many long-of-tooth suppliers have traditionally done business with ''live'' retail stores who have never had a need for photos, reflectors, etc, and only recently are asking for Sarin reports. 2 - The fact that they have not needed those things for a generation or three, coupled with the air of resistance from some influential factions within the trade to internet sales in general, causes a ‘dig in the heels’ mentality. This is what causes your frustration, Neil. As internet sales increase some suppliers are understanding the need to provide more information digitally to internet vendors. There are others who still do business without even owning a Sarin machine (much less photos or reflectors).

Internet vendors who base their business model on drop-shipping a diamond from a supplier sight-unseen to the purchaser are especially handicapped by the suppliers who don’t provide these things.

So for customers... If you’re looking at a diamond from the virtual database, how do you know what is available from the supplier and vendor combo-platter you have chosen? In most cases you don’t. That is why it’s easy to get confused.

Scenario 1: The vendor owns the diamond, has it in-house and has all lab reports and photos done and online. Done.
Scenario 2: The vendor owns the diamond, has it in-house and does not provide all online, but will by request. Done.
Scenario 3: A supplier owns the diamond and will provide the vendor with lab reports, Sarin and photos by request. Almost done.
Scenario 4: A supplier owns the diamond and will provide the vendor with lab reports and Sarin, but no photos. This could take a little time and may require bringing the diamond in if the customer wants photos (see scenario 5).
Scenario 5: A supplier owns the diamond, and will provide the lab report - but no Sarin and no photos…The vendor is willing to bring the diamond in by request to analyze it and take photos, etc (charges may apply depending on policies)…This does take time.
Scenario 6: A supplier owns the diamond, and will not provide anything beyond specs…The vendor is willing to bring the diamond in by request to get the lab report, analyze it, take photos, etc (again, charges may apply)…This could take time and there is more risk that the diamond will not meet exact expectations.
Scenario 7: A supplier owns the diamond but the vendor is a drop-ship only vendor and cannot provide anything further than what the supplier is willing to provide. This is risky to the buyer and the vendor, as the vendor will never see the diamond he/she is selling.

There are many, many suppliers and what they will provide varies depending on their policies. Combine that unknown with the many different vendor policies of drop-shipping sight unseen versus bringing it in for inspection and you have an alphabet soup of different scenarios. No wonder customers scratch their heads.

good summation of the various scenarios for the particular stone availability. this is something that should be in the faq section.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 11/2/2005 12:57:50 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Wink,

Something tells me that the manufacturers who strive to do it well will still stand head and shoulders above the others. Elmyr would face some competition but this just might make them better. Perhaps they should be the ones going to India putting this deal together.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

I have just sent the address of this thread to Paul and recommended that he show it to Elmyr. Perhaps now that he is back from his travels to the States he will come take a look and give us a comment.

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

John,

I realize that this is a Quixotic and perhaps even self destructive quest. If the suppliers start including Sarin reports and good photos, it will directly reduce the number of customers who want to pay me to provide them. I also realize that I’m preaching to the choir here. The dealers who are participants in the forum are the best there are at exactly this topic. They have bought the tools, developed the techniques and trained the employees to provide their customers with the required info despite the lack of support from their vendors. Many of them are very successful at it and I think a large part of their success is their willingness to work to earn their customers business by pushing at this very issue. They deserve their success and I think it will continue no matter how this evolves. It’s precisely the b&m retailers who are suffering from the lack of support. It shouldn’t be necessary for a retailer to invest in a Helium or Sarin machine to be able to be able to use it as a sales tool if the stone was cut by someone who has one. They don’t need to learn to take good reflector images if they have a supplier who can do it. Almost daily a newbie arrives on the forum who is complaining that their local store can’t produce good data when requested and they end up buying from one of the online houses because that’s where they get their questions answered. Not to disparage the online houses but this is nuts. Any decent jeweler should be able to do this with a few clicks of a mouse and it’s crazy that they’re losing sales over it. It's good for you and even good for me, but crazy nonetheless.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[JohnQuixote]

Neil - Agreed and agreed. Bonus points for use of the word Quixotic. Nice.

Belle - thank you. I think it can be very confusing for customers, especially new ones, even coming to understand why diamonds are listed by several vendors when they are owned by a supplier... The added tangle of policy differences only adds spice to the confusion. I''ll work on a piece for the FAQ or the journal that elaborates on the overview Neil did.