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What do you think about this ring?

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by Romy, Sep 25, 2017.

  1. Romy
    Rough_Rock

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    by Romy » Sep 25, 2017
    I was wondering what esteemed PriceScopers think about this ring and, specifically, the center stone. The picture is on my avatar and here is the link to the listing: http://romanovrussia.com/antique/antique-edwardian-era-old-european-diamond-engagement-ring/

    I am relatively new to diamonds and have been reading up on the 4Cs, fluorescence, etc. for the last few weeks. I am after an antique/vintage non-engagement ring with a large center stone and I am not 100% set on this one, but it is my favourite after weeks of searching. I like the carat size, the clarity and the color of the center diamond. However, the most important C for me is the cut and, unfortunately, there is no information about the cut in the listing. I contacted the store owner, and he said their diamonds are graded by Allied Gem Appraisers of Chicago and I can have the report for $50 (to be refunded to me if I buy the ring). Should I pay for the report? Does fluorescence matter in an F color?

    Is it a good price for a ring that size/age? I welcome any opinions/suggestions you might have!
     
  2. LawmaLlama
    Shiny_Rock

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    by LawmaLlama » Sep 25, 2017
    You shouldn't have to pay for a report in order to evaluate whether you want to buy a stone. Before offering the ring, the dealer should have gotten a GIA report. The dealer should be operating in a more transparent fashion. If there is an issue with removing the stone from the setting for a GIA report., the dealer should have gotten a qualitative report from a reputable gemologist and should make it available to customers without cost.

    My vote is stay far away.
     
  3. LawmaLlama
    Shiny_Rock

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    by LawmaLlama » Sep 25, 2017
    As an aside, the center stone cut appears to be an OEC or transitional.
     
    Matthews1127 likes this.
  4. Romy
    Rough_Rock

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    by Romy » Sep 25, 2017
    Thanks, LawmaLlama.

    The dealer said that in order to get a GIA report, he would have to remove the stone from the ring, and that might ruin the ring. So all he has is Allied Gem Appraisers of Chicago - are they reputable? The dealer himself has a good reputation (as far as I can tell from googling :)) , they stand behind their pieces and offer a 3-day no-questions-asked return policy.

    Yes, I understand it is an OEC, but - pardon my layman language here - an OEC, just like modern cuts, can be good, excellent, ideal, right? So that's what I'd like to know - is it the optimal cut for maximum brilliance.
     
  5. Katesimone
    Rough_Rock

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    by Katesimone » Sep 25, 2017
    Romanov Russia is a very well known antiques dealer and as such operates differently to companies that sell brand new rings. Sometimes gems cannot be taken out of antique rings to be graded as it would cause irreparable damage to the piece, so it's common for antique jewellery to be sold with estimated stats rather than a GIA report (which I believe require the diamond to be removed from the setting).

    This is a beautiful ring, and remember that antiques are more than just the parts - the history, craftsmanship and uniqueness all contribute to the value of the piece, rather than just the materials.

    Edit: sorry just missed your last post while I was typing this one. Antique diamonds are generally not cut to maximise brilliance, at least not in the way modern cuts are. If you want a super ideal diamond or the like, you're probably better off looking at modern rings rather than antiques.
     
    Matthews1127, farrahlyn and ac117 like this.
  6. Romy
    Rough_Rock

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    by Romy » Sep 25, 2017
    Thanks, Katesimone. So you think it's beautiful? Okay, 1:1 so far :)
    That antique diamonds are generally not cut to maximise brilliance is new information to me. Very good to know. I am torn between owning a unique piece of history and a super ideal shining diamond!
     
    Matthews1127 likes this.
  7. LawmaLlama
    Shiny_Rock

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    by LawmaLlama » Sep 25, 2017
    I can't speak to their reputation, but I just don't think you should have to pay to consider buying something. For example, JBG is much more transparent and posts qualitative reports by David Atlas in the listings for jewelry she offers that doesnt have a GIA or AGS report. Witbout such a report and assurances, the dealer is really saying to you "let the buyer beware." You are stuck if the item isnt what dealer claims it to be.

    There is no cut grade for OECs. PS does have some charts with standard ranges for these cuts, but they arent the end all that be all. The dealers that are familiar with picking good ones are JBG, LAD, and Old World Diamonds. If you want a newly cut OEC with optimal performance, GOG offers the AVR and Victor Canera offers the CER.
     
  8. Romy
    Rough_Rock

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    by Romy » Sep 25, 2017
    Still, though, can I guess on the quality of the cut based on the info/pictures in the listing? The listing says the diamond size is 6.2 x 3.65 mm. Does that mean the depth is 58.9%? Is it a good depth percentage? Or does it not mean anything at all?
     
  9. ecf8503
    Ideal_Rock

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    by ecf8503 » Sep 25, 2017
    Have you looked at Good Old Gold's August Vintage European cuts or Victor Canera's Old European Cuts? They are newly cut, not true antiques, cut to maximize light return and performance while still using the OEC pattern with large flowery facets. Best of both worlds!
     
    Matthews1127 likes this.
  10. LawmaLlama
    Shiny_Rock

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    by LawmaLlama » Sep 25, 2017
    I dont see how it is possible to guess percentages.
    Read this
    https://www.pricescope.com/journal/modern-quest-old-cut-diamonds
    And this
    https://www.pricescope.com/journal/screening_chart_old_european_cut_diamonds

    You don't even know whether that center stone has chips or cracks, much less whether the color and clarity are accurate. How do you know what you are paying for?
    If you want an old OEC, you want to know what you are paying for. Deal with someone who will give you that information.
    If you want precision optics, I'd vote AVR because I have 3 and love them.
     
    Matthews1127 likes this.
  11. Niel
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Niel » Sep 25, 2017
    This jeweler is, in my opinion, crazy expensive.

    However if you love the ring you love it.
     
    Matthews1127 likes this.
  12. Romy
    Rough_Rock

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    by Romy » Sep 25, 2017
    You are right, I have no idea what I am paying for :(. I like the setting and the fact that it is old. But I am put off by the fact that I have to pay to see the report.

    And I am in Canada. So most of the online diamond dealers that are usually recommended around here are unavailable to me or I'd have to pay shipping/duties/brokerage and returns are complicated. This is why I am attracted to the idea of an antique ring - antiques (older than 100 years), when shipped to Canada, are not subject to duties by the Canadian government.
     
    Matthews1127 likes this.
  13. Romy
    Rough_Rock

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    by Romy » Sep 25, 2017
    Neil - yep, I agree they are overpriced. I read an explanation that, due to a high demand from New Russians, prices for Russian antiques skyrocketed in the last few years. New Russian have a lot of money to spend and antique Russian jewelry is limited because most of it was expropriated after the revolution and stolen/lost/melted for precious metals as the new Soviet Government needed money to stay in power.
     
    Matthews1127 likes this.
  14. JDDN
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by JDDN » Sep 25, 2017
    True old cuts behave differently and I don't think can/should be compared to a modern round. There are no set parameters that will get you the optimal brilliance, sparkle, shine, etc. Not like the Tolkowsky ideal cut proportions for a RB if that is what you're thinking of. To choose an old cut, you need to see it with your own eyes and see if you like the facet pattern, see what the facets are doing, see if there are dead zones, etc. A true old cut has charm and most don't choose one for "ideal optics."

    If you're after the look of an old cut but want the optics of an ideal cut diamond then check out the August Vintage round (VC has the Canera European round).

    For an antique piece that you love, ask yourself if the price is worth it to you and if it is, then there's your answer! It's a very pretty ring, but you have to love it and feel great about it! I think the report in this case will help you determine if you're paying a fair price for an estimated F, VS2 approx. 0.9 carat OEC. If the report comes back that it's an H, SI1, 0.85, then maybe the asking price will deter you. But the report isn't going to give you 'numbers' that will tell you if it's a good diamond if that makes sense.
     
    LLJsmom likes this.
  15. scarsmum
    Shiny_Rock

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    by scarsmum » Sep 25, 2017
    They're asking for $50 to send you an email...that seems beyond shady to me and just greedy business practice. I wouldn't trust their pricing just based on that.
     
    Octo2005 likes this.
  16. Niel
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Niel » Sep 25, 2017
    If your goal is a regal antique ring I think we could find you something similar that is a fair price for what it is. If your goal is that ring because you love it oh well

    I think it's overpriced because they can get away with it. I bought a 400 ring on eBay, flipped it for a modest 700 because I knew the value more than the seller. The person who bought it was a high end antique jeweler who is currently asking 2600. Such is the world of the high end antique Jewelry market
     
  17. rocks
    Shiny_Rock

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    by rocks » Sep 25, 2017
    The diamond is bezel set. It can't be removed without destroying the bezel. If the ring is a period piece, that would decrease its value. That said, my mother has a much larger version of that ring set with a sapphire. I love it.
     
  18. whitewave
    Ideal_Rock

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    by whitewave » Sep 25, 2017
    Agree with above-- it is too expensive, there is no documentation and frankly, it sounds scammy to me.
     
  19. Romy
    Rough_Rock

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    by Romy » Sep 25, 2017
    Sigh. I agree with all the posters. That's exactly the reason I've been admiring this ring for a month now, but haven't been able to pull the trigger. It would be a very significant purchase for me, something I hope to pass on to my daughters when they grow up, so I want a pretty ring AND good value for my money.

    My goal is an antique ring (100 yrs old, because then it is exempt from Canadian duties), with a 0.9-1.0 high quality center stone (as opposed to several smaller stones, triple stones, toi et moi ring), flat-ish on the top and with a bezel set, because I am going to wear it every day, so I don't want it to catch on things.

    Could you point me to places to look? I've been to 1st Dibs, Lang's Antiques, Jewels by Grace, Ruby Lane. Where else?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  20. doberman
    Shiny_Rock

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    by doberman » Sep 25, 2017
    I am getting a distinctly non-antique feel from this ring. Maybe it's the 14kt rather than 18kt gold. But needing to buy the report on the diamond?? I don't care how much I like the ring, I still wouldn't buy it from them.
     
  21. LawmaLlama
    Shiny_Rock

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    by LawmaLlama » Sep 25, 2017
    If you truly love it, ask them to send you the appraiser report for free. If they want the sale, they shouldnt balk at the request.

    Also try JBG and Love Affair Diamonds and Good Old Gold (they carry estate items also). If they have nothing in inventory, you need to tell them what you are looking for., your time frame, and budget, so they can be on the lookout for it.
     
  22. scarsmum
    Shiny_Rock

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    by scarsmum » Sep 25, 2017
    I was looking at a site called diamond violet yesterday. I can't vouch for them but they have a lot of antique pieces.
     
  23. HDer
    Shiny_Rock

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  24. canuk-gal
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by canuk-gal » Sep 25, 2017
    HI:

    To be clear, excise tax (AKA DUTY) was eliminated eons ago. That said, as a Canadian every piece of jewellery, diamonds, or colored stones I've ever purchased across border was subject to GST and depending on where you live, PST (or HST total). On the dollar exchange. No getting around it.

    There are many Estate dealers in Canada. Have you looked around?

    cheers--Sharon
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  25. Romy
    Rough_Rock

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    by Romy » Sep 25, 2017
    Sharon - when you say "excise tax (AKA DUTY) was eliminated eons ago", you are talking about duties on antique items (older than 100 years), right?

    Yes. I am l aware that I will still have to pay GST on everything shipped to Canada.

    I am in Alberta. No, I have not looked around in Canada. Can you recommend where to look?
     
  26. Matthews1127
    Brilliant_Rock

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  27. Niel
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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  28. Niel
    Super_Ideal_Rock

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    by Niel » Sep 25, 2017
    Also, I am like this rigs number one fan. I think it's an amazing deal, and even with tax it's less than most things ( and is returnable)
    If it's close to your size anyway. If someone doesn't buy this soon I'll have too. It says the action is over but no one bought it, I believe.
    https://www.ebay.com/i/263166885789
     
  29. flyingpig
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by flyingpig » Sep 25, 2017
    I am also from Canada.
    If I am buying a diamond and a setting as a finished product, the ring is subject to no duty. This is because there is no duty on diamonds and the entire ring is finished in the US, which is no duty under NAFTA. You just need pay local sales taxes (GST only in AB in your case).

    But for an antique piece like this, you don't know where it was manufactured. Even if the setting was manufactured in the US, is it processed under NAFTA? The diamond should be duty-free. But what portion of the total price? Does the vendor fully understand on how to export and ship such antique item to Canada with all documentations?

    alot of questions. I do not know the answer either.

    Because of this uncertainty and the price, I would stay away.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  30. aac2013
    Shiny_Rock

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    by aac2013 » Sep 25, 2017
    The ring is gorgeous and I can see why it speaks to you. The curved lines make it seem delicate but bold at the same time. I am not going to assume the dealer is shady. The price of the appraisal is paid by the consumer whether you pay for it itemized separately or its built into the price of the ring. I personally would not want a report from a colleague of the dealer anyway, most especially if it was a dealer with whom I had no previous experience. If you find you really can't get this ring out of your mind, ask if it can be sent to an independent appraiser of your choice (there are several excellent ones that can be recommended by PSers). That will then put your mind at ease as to the authenticity of the ring as well as the condition and grading of the diamonds. After insurance, shipping, and qualitative report fee, you will pay more than $50, but it will be money well spent considering the price of the ring. If the dealer says no, then walk away.

    All that said, I do think this dealer is overpriced. There are tons of antique rings around for a lot less. Finding one that appeals to you can and will take time so enjoy the hunt because that is part of the fun. Many of the vendors noted in this thread are great additional places to look. I stalk their sites regularly myself, much to my husband's dismay.

    Neil has been known to find amazing things on eBay so check out her recommendations too.
     

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