shape
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color
clarity

What are these images?

nappes

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 26, 2015
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17
Hi all

I've been looking at some diamonds and I asked for idealscope images and or aset. I received the following 3 images but I don't know what the first one is, is it a different sort of idealscope? and does this look good whatever it is

1735601a_-_3.jpg

1735601a_-_2.jpg

1735601a_-_1.jpg

Thanks

Ben
 

ecf8503

Ideal_Rock
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Those are H&A pics. The H&A pattern is present, but not perfect (arrow shafts not lined up, clefts in the hearts, etc). Can't say much about the light performance based on these pics. Can you post the crown and pavillion angles, table and depth %?
 

nappes

Rough_Rock
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Oct 26, 2015
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Yeah I found out that after a lot of searching afterwards that its the table view. (I think)

This is the report here
http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite?reportno=3205800618&childpagename=GIA%2FPage%2FReportCheck&pagename=GIA%2FDispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547

Table 56
Depth 62
Crown 35.0
Pavilion 40.6

1.65C I VS2 for $11000 which is good if the cut is good but kinda meh otherwise

Nice HCA score but I don't have access to idealscope images for the stone. I'm not sure this vendor is going to be able to get those for me, I might just have to go off HCA tool and H&A pictures like these

Ben
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
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The numbers look good.
 

nappes

Rough_Rock
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Oct 26, 2015
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Its gone :( oh well

Yeah, I choose ~4 stones all with HCA < 1 and excellent grades on GIA cert. But I have no other imagery.

Wondering if its ok to buy a stone with good symmetry and patterns on H&A and a good HCA score without an idealscope image. I'd have the ability to return the stone but maybe not see it in person

Ben
 

Tourmaline

Ideal_Rock
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Just so you know: under 1 on the HCA is not necessarily better than between 1 and 2.
 

nappes

Rough_Rock
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Oct 26, 2015
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Thanks, thats useful to know. Surely smaller is better? I understand that some are more fiery and some are more brilliant but everything else equal wouldn't I want that # lower.

However, if thats true, thats, good more options for me. But, I'm still going to have to choose a stone based on that score and maybe an H&A image

Thanks

B
 

Tourmaline

Ideal_Rock
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Nope. There's information about that in the text on the HCA tool page. You may very well prefer the look of 1.5 over .5, for example.
 

WinkHPD

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nappes|1446566366|3945116 said:
Thanks, thats useful to know. Surely smaller is better? I understand that some are more fiery and some are more brilliant but everything else equal wouldn't I want that # lower.

However, if thats true, thats, good more options for me. But, I'm still going to have to choose a stone based on that score and maybe an H&A image

Thanks

B

Common misconception, that < 1 is better than < 2, but not at all correlated. It is also obvious to me that you are misusing this tool as a selection tool, when it is only designed to be a rejection tool. < means that it is a strong candidate and worthy of further inspection. It does NOT mean that it is good, better or best.

It is a good tool, but it is not a final decision tool.

Wink
 

nappes

Rough_Rock
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Oct 26, 2015
Messages
17
I am, yes, because I have very minimal else to go on.

I suppose that is what I'm asking, can I use HCA tool + GIA cert + an H&A image to pick a decent diamond or should I stay away from this vendor and goto one let can also give me video and idealscope

Ben
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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If you want to be assured of a well cut stone, then you will need ASET and IS imaging. Without those, you are making a guess and hoping it works out. Due to rounding, there have been GIA EX duds and there have also been duds with HCA > 2. This is why the HCA is not recommended as a final selection tool.

H&A only shows symmetry. Almost all well cut diamonds will exhibit the H&A pattern but not the reverse, meaning H&A patterning alone is not a guarantee of a well cut diamond.
 

Diamond_Hawk

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nappes,

As you continue your search, I did want to make sure you understand what you are viewing:

The difference between H&A viewer and Ideal-Scope

Ideal-Scope: The Ideal-Scope (and ASET) serve a different purpose than the Hearts & Arrows viewer. The Ideal-Scope reveals light performance from horizon to horizon to the viewer. The “arrows” you see in the Ideal-Scope appear black because they are showing the light that is blocked by the viewer’s head or the camera lens (usually about 30 degrees of obstruction from above). The red (or Red+Green in ASET) is the light returned to the viewer from the horizon up to around 75 degrees from all sides of the diamond. Where you see white in the Ideal-Scope is places where the facets are allowing light to pass-through rather than reflecting it to the viewer (known as leakage). The ASET functions essentially the same way, but gives even more information about where the light is coming from.

So – what do you look for: Because the Ideal-Scope is used in a ‘back-lit’ arrangement there should be an abundance of red color and – in the case of a round brilliant – crisp, symmetrical black areas (this is where the ‘arrows’ may appear, and why there is sometimes confusion) along with a small amount of white leakage – as a matter of fact the points where the facets meet (the facet junctions) there will always be some type of leakage that look like small triangles at the facet joints and around the edges of the girdle.

If you have top-tier light performance revealed in the IS (or ASET) images, the fact that the diamond may also have fantastic H&A images, demonstrating 3D precision, is an added bonus.

The Hearts & Arrows:
The H&A viewer on the other hand is designed to show symmetry as a result of cut precision. Because the H&A viewer is not a back-lit environment the white “Arrows” are reflections of light from above which show (from the crown view) the pavilion main facets. When cut precisely and symmetrically the 8 arrows will show up with crisp outlines. When viewed from the Pavilion, the combination of many facets overlap to show the Hearts view.

The color of the filament paper used with the viewer can change and that is why you see some Blue, some Red, and occasionally other colors used with the H&A images.

Let me reiterate the most important point – if there is an abundance of light return via an Ideal-Scope or ASET image, the symmetry and precision of the H&A view is an added bonus.


Additionally, if you are dealing with a company or person who has misidentified an H&A image as an Ideal-Scope image, be wary.
 

denverappraiser

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Diamond_Hawk|1446582539|3945257 said:
Additionally, if you are dealing with a company or person who has misidentified an H&A image as an Ideal-Scope image, be wary.
I'm not sure I agree here. Idealscopes in particular are a bit of technology that's very tightly connected to this site and the dealers who participate here. There are thousands of jewelers out there who have never heard of them. Mistaking H&A for IS, or visa versa, is definitely a mistake, but I would call it a forgivable one. They're trying to be accommodating. For what it's worth, taking good h&a images isn't especially easy and those actually are pretty well done.
 

Texas Leaguer

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denverappraiser|1446585773|3945276 said:
Diamond_Hawk|1446582539|3945257 said:
Additionally, if you are dealing with a company or person who has misidentified an H&A image as an Ideal-Scope image, be wary.
I'm not sure I agree here. Idealscopes in particular are a bit of technology that's very tightly connected to this site and the dealers who participate here. There are thousands of jewelers out there who have never heard of them. Mistaking H&A for IS, or visa versa, is definitely a mistake, but I would call it a forgivable one. They're trying to be accommodating. For what it's worth, taking good h&a images isn't especially easy and those actually are pretty well done.
I see your point, and I do think more vendors are gaining access to light performance images. This is happening as a result of manufacturers themselves providing a variety of images both actual and computer generated. Because only a small minority of jewelers and dealers capture their own images, there is still a lack of understanding on the part of many sellers as to what they represent or how to properly interpret them. And I think that was probably behind Diamond_Hawk's comment. If you are a person who is interested in high level information about the cut quality of a diamond you are considering for purchase, you probably want to have confidence that the merchant you are dealing with is conversant in that area.
 

nappes

Rough_Rock
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Thank you for that very detailed explanation Diamond Hawk. The vendor Brilliant Earth (a local SF jeweller that specializes in conflict free diamonds and some lab created stones as well) has not mis-represented anything, they just have very limited imagery, even on request. For some of their stones I'm looking at they only have a front normal lit enlarged photo (and thats after request)

My problem is that I really like their settings, more than what I've seen on JA or Brian Gavin, and a few other local stores. Specifically I like their lotus flower halo here
http://www.brilliantearth.com/Lotus-Flower-Diamond-Ring-(1/3-ct.-tw...)-Rose-Gold-BE1BD12R2-1152820/
and their catalina
http://www.brilliantearth.com/Catalina-Ring-Rose-Gold-BE1M50L-1152758/

So I'm torn between trying to find another jeweller to make a match of these combined with a good stone from whiteflash / JA / Brian Gavin etc or get the ring from them and accept that I wont be able to be so picky about the diamond. If I go with Brilliant Earth I may have to pick a diamond solely off the gia cert + a table view photo to try to see if it looks symmetrical enough.

I'll this reading on this forum and elsewhere warps the mind a little. 99% of people choose a diamond without advanced imagery...Is it the difference between me getting something perfect or a dud, or is it more the difference between very very good and perfect (once I've just HCA tool etc to weed out obvious bad ones)

Ben
 

Diamond_Hawk

Brilliant_Rock
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denverappraiser|1446585773|3945276 said:
Diamond_Hawk|1446582539|3945257 said:
Additionally, if you are dealing with a company or person who has misidentified an H&A image as an Ideal-Scope image, be wary.
I'm not sure I agree here. Idealscopes in particular are a bit of technology that's very tightly connected to this site and the dealers who participate here. There are thousands of jewelers out there who have never heard of them. Mistaking H&A for IS, or visa versa, is definitely a mistake, but I would call it a forgivable one. They're trying to be accommodating. For what it's worth, taking good h&a images isn't especially easy and those actually are pretty well done.

Neil,

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify. I chose the term 'be wary' specifically for the reasons you outlined. It was merely a caution, not an indictment of a vendor or sales-person who might mis-indentify the image. Your point rings true, especially outside the world of PriceScope.
 

Diamond_Hawk

Brilliant_Rock
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Texas Leaguer|1446588021|3945293 said:
denverappraiser|1446585773|3945276 said:
Diamond_Hawk|1446582539|3945257 said:
Additionally, if you are dealing with a company or person who has misidentified an H&A image as an Ideal-Scope image, be wary.
I'm not sure I agree here. Idealscopes in particular are a bit of technology that's very tightly connected to this site and the dealers who participate here. There are thousands of jewelers out there who have never heard of them. Mistaking H&A for IS, or visa versa, is definitely a mistake, but I would call it a forgivable one. They're trying to be accommodating. For what it's worth, taking good h&a images isn't especially easy and those actually are pretty well done.
I see your point, and I do think more vendors are gaining access to light performance images. This is happening as a result of manufacturers themselves providing a variety of images both actual and computer generated. Because only a small minority of jewelers and dealers capture their own images, there is still a lack of understanding on the part of many sellers as to what they represent or how to properly interpret them. And I think that was probably behind Diamond_Hawk's comment. If you are a person who is interested in high level information about the cut quality of a diamond you are considering for purchase, you probably want to have confidence that the merchant you are dealing with is conversant in that area.

+1

Bryan,

Thank you for encapsulating my thought process perfectly.
 

telephone89

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
4,224
nappes|1446588178|3945295 said:
Thank you for that very detailed explanation Diamond Hawk. The vendor Brilliant Earth (a local SF jeweller that specializes in conflict free diamonds and some lab created stones as well) has not mis-represented anything, they just have very limited imagery, even on request. For some of their stones I'm looking at they only have a front normal lit enlarged photo (and thats after request)

My problem is that I really like their settings, more than what I've seen on JA or Brian Gavin, and a few other local stores. Specifically I like their lotus flower halo here
http://www.brilliantearth.com/Lotus-Flower-Diamond-Ring-(1/3-ct.-tw....)-Rose-Gold-BE1BD12R2-1152820/
and their catalina
http://www.brilliantearth.com/Catalina-Ring-Rose-Gold-BE1M50L-1152758/

So I'm torn between trying to find another jeweller to make a match of these combined with a good stone from whiteflash / JA / Brian Gavin etc or get the ring from them and accept that I wont be able to be so picky about the diamond. If I go with Brilliant Earth I may have to pick a diamond solely off the gia cert + a table view photo to try to see if it looks symmetrical enough.

I'll this reading on this forum and elsewhere warps the mind a little. 99% of people choose a diamond without advanced imagery...Is it the difference between me getting something perfect or a dud, or is it more the difference between very very good and perfect (once I've just HCA tool etc to weed out obvious bad ones)

Ben
Those are both very simple settings - I'm sure JA/BG/WF have similar if not almost identical settings.
But anyways, start a new thread with these 2 settings, your diamond parameters and let us help you find something. Most people will not look into this thread to see your dilemma, so starting a new thread will be very helpful.
 

gm89uk

Brilliant_Rock
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Chrono|1446569649|3945143 said:
If you want to be assured of a well cut stone, then you will need ASET and IS imaging. Without those, you are making a guess and hoping it works out. Due to rounding, there have been GIA EX duds and there have also been duds with HCA > 2. This is why the HCA is not recommended as a final selection tool.

H&A only shows symmetry. Almost all well cut diamonds will exhibit the H&A pattern but not the reverse, meaning H&A patterning alone is not a guarantee of a well cut diamond.

If the numbers are good, it is said that you should be cautious regarding light performance because of "rounding issues". But if one does not have an idealscope image, the numbers are good and the H&A images display good symmetry, would it then be safe to assume that this diamond will MOST LIKELY have a good reflector image (as numbers are good with decent symmetry)?

To summarise, is H&A patterning with good numbers, a relatively good indicator of a well performing stone?
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
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gm89uk|1446601102|3945410 said:
To summarise, is H&A patterning with good numbers, a relatively good indicator of a well performing stone?

I am not willing to play the lottery that risks several thousand dollars on a dud. With so many vendors that provide better documentation, I see no reason to accept such an unnecessary risk.
 

Diamond_Hawk

Brilliant_Rock
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Chrono|1446643343|3945547 said:
gm89uk|1446601102|3945410 said:
To summarise, is H&A patterning with good numbers, a relatively good indicator of a well performing stone?

I am not willing to play the lottery that risks several thousand dollars on a dud. With so many vendors that provide better documentation, I see no reason to accept such an unnecessary risk.

+1

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