Well, Now Brett Kavanaugh Can Face His Accuser

[Jambalaya]

OK, night shift has begun. Thanks for the civilized discussion, everyone.

ETA: This is the FIRST and ONLY time I have ever felt suspicious of a woman's allegations.

 

[House Cat]

There are so many of us who haven’t told our family about the rapes we experienced. The words have been on the tip of my tongue a million times but I know it will kill my dad to know what happened to me.

I find all of this speculation as a means for proving Dr Ford a liar completely insulting. There is no template or logic to the way a sexual assault victim will behave. The nature of the assault makes behavior of the victim chaotic.

 

[monarch64]

GENIUS

https://www.brettkavanaugh.com/

The domain was purchased by Fix the Court 3 years ago. How stupid does he (and anyone who's worked on his campaign) feel for not purchasing his own freakin URL, I don't know, a hundred years ago when he started running for office? LOLOLOLOL this made my day!

 

[partgypsy]

Wow, just wow. The reason why your argument doesn't make any sense, is a) she identified him as her attacker anywhere from 2 to 6 years before him being nominated. Your argument only makes sense if Democrats have a time machine.The 2nd reason it doesn't make sense is that anyone who Trump nominates will be anti- choice. No matter what, trump will choose the next supreme court justice, even if kavanaugh was withdrawn. Makes her a pretty ineffectual activist if thats what she was after. Plus, if shes trying to keep him off the bench, why stop with ber version? Why not say she was raped? As you said theres no way to prove it, might as well make it really juicy. Or maybe wild rhought, maybe she's just telling the truth.we know one of the two testifying was ok lying under oath. And it wasn't Ford.

 

[partgypsy]

I have a friend who was raped as a teen. When in tears she told her mother, her mother very sternly told her to Never tell anyone what happened to her. It was a acquantince who did it. She was also from a wealthy family. People don't always react the way you think, or feel they should, including the people who should be protecting you.

 

[Calliecake]

Dr. Ford could have single-handedly saved every woman in America from the specter of unwanted pregnancies and births, and saved generations of women coming up from the same. That's millions and millions and millions of women whose right to control their own bodies would have been saved.

I cannot think of a better reason to lie about the man who could make it happen.

Seriously??? Don’t you think if the Republican Party passed on Kavanaugh they would have just found another candidate who would vote to erode abortion rights? Of course they would have! That’s been their end game for years. That’s how they keep the evangelical voters. It certainly isn’t because they have great Christian values. They voted for Trump.

Do most people remember the exact location where high school parties took place? I could tell you the name of the towns but have no idea which house I was in 35 years ago. If the person having the party wasn’t a very close friend I doubt I would remember their name. Most teenagers attended many parties.

@Ellen , I’m so sorry for what you have been thru.

 

[House Cat]

Ellen, i am so sorry for the things that have happened to you.

 

[Maria D]

On the family issue, an article form the uber-respectable Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.81e383f71df5

I'd say the most likely explanation is that they know her too well. It's possible she's a fantasist. For all the wonderful good of the #MeToo movement, it's exactly the sort of thing that attracts con artists and fantasists, who ruin it for the multitudes who are telling the truth.

I'm stunned that you can read that article and come up with "they know her too well" as the most likely explanation for why her family is not publicly supporting her. If anything, the article leans toward the conjecture that her family is deeply concerned with their status in the community that they have spent their entire lives in.

Here are my unsubstantiated thoughts. I believe Ford's basic allegations. I believe that Kavanaugh did the things she said he did, but I do not know, because I wasn't there, whether she was in the danger she thought she was in. I believe she thought she was going to be raped and was severely traumatized but I don't know if Kavanaugh intended to rape her. Giving a 17 year old the benefit of the doubt: maybe he was really drunk and thought she'd go along with having sex with him but when she started screaming he put his hand over her mouth. Maybe he really doesn't remember anything about it now. Maybe for him it was just another gathering where he had too much to drink.

If Kavanaugh would have admitted that he regularly drank to extreme intoxication in his younger years, did not remember this event at all, and contritely agreed that this kind of behavior would be completely unacceptable, I could look at him as a man that outgrew the obnoxious punk persona he had in his younger days (an opinion I'm basing on the recollections of people other than Ford who knew him then) to become an upstanding and admirable citizen. But that's not what happened. Instead, he was belligerent and politically biased. He proved himself unfit for the position by lying under oath.

 

[Ellen]

I'm stunned that you can read that article and come up with "they know her too well" as the most likely explanation for why her family is not publicly supporting her. If anything, the article leans toward the conjecture that her family is deeply concerned with their status in the community that they have spent their entire lives in.

Here are my unsubstantiated thoughts. I believe Ford's basic allegations. I believe that Kavanaugh did the things she said he did, but I do not know, because I wasn't there, whether she was in the danger she thought she was in. I believe she thought she was going to be raped and was severely traumatized but I don't know if Kavanaugh intended to rape her. Giving a 17 year old the benefit of the doubt: maybe he was really drunk and thought she'd go along with having sex with him but when she started screaming he put his hand over her mouth. Maybe he really doesn't remember anything about it now. Maybe for him it was just another gathering where he had too much to drink.

If Kavanaugh would have admitted that he regularly drank to extreme intoxication in his younger years, did not remember this event at all, and contritely agreed that this kind of behavior would be completely unacceptable, I could look at him as a man that outgrew the obnoxious punk persona he had in his younger days (an opinion I'm basing on the recollections of people other than Ford who knew him then) to become an upstanding and admirable citizen. But that's not what happened. Instead, he was belligerent and politically biased. He proved himself unfit for the position by lying under oath.

These are my thoughts exactly. In fact, I had this very same article ready to post and comment on but J posted it first. I realized after that she wasn't going to hear my comments, which were what you just said here.

This kind of attitude clearly exists, that's why I shared my miscarriage story J, as an example. Her family most likely is trying very hard not to let their prestigious apple cart get rocked too much.

 

[Octo2005]

Life really is too short to go be batting back and forth over this, I have a busy night shift ahead and absolutely no time to read the looong, loong responses. I have no interest at all in bashing my head against a brick wall and no need at all to convince others that I might be right, or that I have a point, or whatever. People think what they think, and bashing back and forth here over it is one of the biggest wastes of time I can think of. I'll just end up repeating what I've already written. To give examples, someone just asked what she would have to gain. I already said what she would have to gain. She gets to save US womenkind from unwanted pregnancies. She achieves her aim as an activist. Those gains are HUGE. And someone said that false accusations are rare. I already said that exact thing. This is a very different case from - well, almost every other case. False accusations are rare, but see the Rolling Stone story. (I already said that, too!) And see the Duke lacrosse story. It's rare but it happens, and given what was at stake, I do not think the activist idea is crazy at all. Remember how taken in everyone was over Rolling Stone?

I also think it's odd that she can't remember a single thing about the location of the party. Not even the neighborhood. She had one beer. Surely she can remember the location. I went to parties 35 years ago and while I couldn't give you the address, I could lead you there. Absolutely. And they didn't really know each other. Maybe by sight form a distance. They went to separate high schools.

I found his testimony credible. Imagine how someone who had been falsely accused of assault in front of the world might sound, someone who had been put under great stress and stood to lose the highlight of his career over it. Well, they might sound just as outraged as he did. And he never one called her a liar. He said she had made a genuine mistake.

I hope there is a full and proper investigation. I hope no stone is left unturned in terms of interviewing the people who were around at that time.

Why have we not heard form her family? Why have the parents whose house it was not come forward? Why do NONE of her four named friends remember any such party?

And meanwhile, the future of abortion rights in the United States hung in the balance. This was an accusation that was just too convenient for me, and there are too many holes in her account.

Telephone asked me and I answered. This is my last word on the matter!

Telephone, thank you for your simple and gracious response.

I truly hope that my response did not come across as bashing, if it did I apologize that was not my intent. I simply wanted to have a conversation regarding the "details". I think that we agree on many points and was interested in how we came to such different conclusions.

 

[Alexiszoe]

I have a friend who was raped as a teen. When in tears she told her mother, her mother very sternly told her to Never tell anyone what happened to her. It was a acquantince who did it. She was also from a wealthy family. People don't always react the way you think, or feel they should, including the people who should be protecting you.

To add to this a little bit. During my time in academia, part of my research specialization was on behavior within very wealthy families in the East Coast - think established wealth in traditional sectors (as opposed to West Coast wealth).

One thing that I found really interesting then was the amount of unspoken rules and social regulations that goes into the larger goal - preserving the family's good name and status within a very small and tight knit, wealthy community. Every family member knew that every single thing that they do will be scrutinized and judged by others in the community. Even the teenagers in the family knew that. Failure to adhere to these social regulations would result in social sanctions, for example, the entire family's fall in status within the community and being ostracized by everyone, which is a big deal for them. I know it may sound funny, but to put it into perspective, say one grows up in a very small, tight knit town, where everyone knows everyone. This is the place that you, your parents and grandparents grew up in - your values, your friends, your job and marriage networks are all shaped by this community over decades, and has an impact on how you perceive yourself, the world and what your values are.

Times may have changed now, but pressures and a constant policing of the self, can add to and explain why certain things deemed embarrassing or humiliating will never be discussed or come up.

 

[cmd2014]

@Jambalaya, I think Dr. Ford would have to be some kind of fanatic to try to pull this off as some kind of political plot, and there is no evidence to suggest that this is who she is. There's literally nothing to indicate that she is pro-choice activist. To the best that I can determine, she has never said a word on this topic. Nor has she donated money or done anything else to raise concern that this might be the case. Instead, she has spent her entire career studying trauma and the mind's response to it. I think that alone speaks volumes about what happened to her.

This would be extreme, even for a political activist. This is not some 20 something journalist looking to make a name for herself, who doesn’t have the maturity to think through the implications of her actions (ie not fact checking a story told to her by a psychologically fragile person). This is a woman who would have spent a minimum of 10 years in university to obtain a Ph.D, another 2 to complete post doctoral training, plus another 10 - 15 years to get the university position that she had. That is now all in jeopardy because of her decision to come forward. This would be on top of putting her children’s lives at risk, her husband’s life at risk, and her own. The theory that she’s doing this for political gain holds no weight. She’d have to be incredibly naive to think that this would have worked, when it never has before. She even said it - that she didn’t want to come forward and be anihilated for nothing. Plus, some of the facts that you cite (like the polygraph issue) have been debunked.

I can tell how much the Rolling Stone article affected you, but honestly, there’s just no evidence to support this theory here.

 

[Tekate]

@Jambalaya your post is very interesting and you should not have to spend five hours explaining anything.

https://www.igi-global.com/dictiona...mong-young-people-in-sub-saharan-africa/43672

So when you say she is a political activist (which I consider myself one).. do you mean that she made it up to promote a liberal agenda? You may not want to answer, but I just don't see why being a political activist would make a woman lie. I guess you mean that it didn't happen and she was afraid abortion rights would be turned back (which they will be probably but I'm not worried because states will enact their own laws, which falls right into @redwood66 's states rights, to me maybe you mean she's a radical?

https://www.encyclopedia.com/histor...es-and-press-releases/radicals-and-radicalism

I see her believing the Kavanaugh wasn't fit, but your mileage certainly varies and I think that is America.

I do not agree with your assessment at all BUT that doesn't make it not real, a lie, fake, etc, it's your belief and your right and I would never stand in your way of saying it and living by it.

Do you remember Anita Hill? some of you guys may be too young to remember her.. did you think she was a political activist also? I was 37 then and I believed EVERYTHING she said and thought and still think Thomas should not be on the court and he should never have been approved, but I thought her honest.. Hill did have some corroboration also.

I was going to stay away from this thread, but you've asked me a question and I shall answer. I wasn't going to be forthright about what I really think regarding the BK issues, but since you've asked me, I will give you a straight answer.

Yes, I would believe the people in your scenario above. Yes, I think they should come forward after 30 years. Yes, the priest should lose his job. Yes, I have always believed every woman who says she's been assaulted. While false accusations happen, they're rare, and most women wouldn't dream of making up such a thing.

So why don't I believe Christine Ford? Because I think she's a political activist. I strongly suspect that because of the timing.

If she is an activist, the gains for her cause are HUGE. Look at said timing. A man who could roll back abortion rights is about to be elected to the Supreme Court and SUDDENLY a woman accuses him, after decades of an unblemished record. Doesn't anyone think that this is a tad suspicious?

If she is a political activist, exactly the same as "Sabrina" was from Rolling Stone magazine, then in her mind she's helping to save hundreds of thousands of women from the burden of unwanted pregnancies. A laudable aim which I can understand, but you can't go around accusing innocent people and ruining their lives. That's against the law.

The four friends she names have no memory of the party where she was apparently assaulted. Turns out that she alluded to the incident in a therapy session in 2012, but she didn't name Brett Kavanaugh. She says she never coached anyone in a polygraph session, but a colleague saw her do just that. She says she has trouble flying and is claustrophobic, but the evidence bears neither of these things out. The very left-wing Globe newspaper is troubled by the way none of the four friends remember that party. It's not just me. In addition, no one else on the planet seems to remember such a gathering around that time. At all. In addition, her family has not supported her. We haven't heard a word from them.

The Rolling Stone "victim" was fine with throwing about six people totally under the bus because of her political aim of drawing attention to the problem of rape culture. There are such activists out there. I think Christine Ford is one of them, and it was the first thing I thought of because of the timing, before I knew anything else.

This is not your run-of-the-mill accusation involving two ordinary average citizens. The accused has the power to make abortion illegal. The stakes were HUGE. Absolutely HUGE. I actually would have been more surprised if no one had come forward with such an accusation in a desperate bid to stop the court being entirely controlled by the right and by anti-abortion activists.

I'm firmly pro-choice and I can understand the allure of trying everything you can think of to stop someone getting elected who will have the power to make abortion illegal. That. Is. Huge. But I'm against people ruining others' lives to achieve political aims.

If I turn out to be wrong, I'll be very sorry. I've always believed every other woman who reports an assault. But the timing of the accusation and the very nature of the things that are at stake make this a unique accusation. It's a safe game for her to play because no one can prove any lies after this long.

If she's telling the truth, and BK did do it, to deny outright ever being at that party is a VERY risky strategy for him. Think about it. If everything she says is true, he would not have denied ever being there because others would remember him there. He would have said he was there but they were fooling around, he was there but he remembers her making out with someone else, or some other watered-down version. To deny any such party at all, if true, is a very high-risk strategy.

That Rolling Stone article showed us that female activists willing to say they've been raped to achieve lofty aims do exist. I'd call them agitators rather than activists, but there you go.

I don't expect people will like my suspicions very much, and I am not going to spend the next five hours verbally boxing with people on here to dissect and defend every minutiae of what I've said. I think she's an activist. Well, Telephone, you asked me and I answered.

 

[Octo2005]

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...8/kavanaugh-ford-question-dodge-hearing-chart

This is why I find her more credible than him! It is easy to make excuses for his temperament when claiming he is outraged at being falsely accused, but it doesn't explain his dodging questions.

Truth be told, I do believe him that he doesn't remember the incident. I am sure that it was just one of many drunken parties for him.

 

[cmd2014]

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...8/kavanaugh-ford-question-dodge-hearing-chart

This is why I find her more credible than him! It is easy to make excuses for his temperament when claiming he is outraged at being falsely accused, but it doesn't explain his dodging questions.

Truth be told, I do believe him that he doesn't remember the incident. I am sure that it was just one of many drunken parties for him.

And probably one of the less offensive ones from what his classmates say.

 

[Jambalaya]

You make good pints, cmd, as does everyone.

Tekate, upthread I responded to Monnie's questions about what I meant about being an activist. Short version: In this context, I mean in the Rolling-Stone-magazine sense.

My hope is that the Democrats make a good showing in the midterms and that they carry out a proper investigation. We can only conjecture, and I think it is very wrong that the country has been left to conjecture seeing as how we're talking about the highest court in the land.

 

[Tekate]

Okay I will go back up and find it !!!!

I read today probably in the Times that respect for the highest court is diminishing..

You make good pints, cmd, as does everyone.

Tekate, upthread I responded to Monnie's questions about what I meant about being an activist. Short version: In this context, I mean in the Rolling-Stone-magazine sense.

My hope is that the Democrats make a good showing in the midterms and that they carry out a proper investigation. We can only conjecture, and I think it is very wrong that the country has been left to conjecture seeing as how we're talking about the highest court in the land.

 

[Jambalaya]

Okay I will go back up and find it !!!!

I read today probably in the Times that respect for the highest court is diminishing..

Yes, I should think it is, what with serious allegations not taken seriously, an appointment shoved through when it should have been put on hold pending a thorough investigation, and the resulting possibility that we have a sexual harasser as a judge in the highest court of the land.

The government's handling of this affair has made a mockery of our highest court. God knows what people in other countries must think of us. They're probably all

 

[Octo2005]

Yes, I should think it is, what with serious allegations not taken seriously, an appointment shoved through when it should have been put on hold pending a thorough investigation, and the resulting possibility that we have a sexual harasser as a judge in the highest court of the land.

The government's handling of this affair has made a mockery of our highest court. God knows what people in other countries must think of us. They're probably all

I completely agree and think that it is a very sad state we are in. This was pushed thru without being thoroughly investigated. If I were accused of something that I knew I did not do, I would be demanding that my name be cleared. His refusal to ask for an investigation is very telling in my opinion.

 

[Calliecake]

Kavanaugh knows he acted unprofessional and his conduct was not fitting of a judge. Why else would he written the NYT piece right before the vote? His responded horribly to the questions that were asked of him at the hearing. He was disrespectful and dishonest. Innocent people don’t deflect and refuse to answer direct questions.

 

[LJsapphire]

I haven't been involved in the thread but I saw a video clip posted on facebook of part of the ceremony (I think!) and BK's interaction with his wife and child in front of Trump. His wife looks very uncomfortable.
Shall I post the link?

 

[AGBF]

Shall I post the link?

Definitely.

 

[soxfan]

I haven't been involved in the thread but I saw a video clip posted on facebook of part of the ceremony (I think!) and BK's interaction with his wife and child in front of Trump. His wife looks very uncomfortable.
Shall I post the link?

Yeah- he was pushing her and pulling her. It was bizarre.

 

[LJsapphire]

Definitely.

https://www.facebook.com/WokeFolks/posts/1281040068703006?__tn__=C-R

 

[AGBF]

Yeah- he was pushing her and pulling her. It was bizarre.

I hadn't seen that, but I did notice he kept kissing his younger daughter while he ignored his older daughter, as if she didn't need his affection. At the end, he shook her hand. I could understand his doing that is she had been a boy, just for form's sake, not because it is not all right to hug one's son, but not with one's daughter.

AGBF

 

[Calliecake]

I am sure there is a lot the public doesn’t know about Kavanaugh. His behavior at the hear was bizarre to say the least. I have no idea who coached him before the hearing but I found his responses to do nothing but prove he had no business being a judge.

His refusal to answer direct questions calmly and admit he drink excessively in high school and college would have been the better way to handle this, given all the people who came forward to say they had seen him stumbling drunk may times. Then at least we could say he was being truthful.

 

[partgypsy]

I hadn't seen that, but I did notice he kept kissing his younger daughter while he ignored his older daughter, as if she didn't need his affection. At the end, he shook her hand. I could understand his doing that is she had been a boy, just for form's sake, not because it is not all right to hug one's son, but not with one's daughter.

AGBF

I wouldn't put to much weight on that. My older daughter doesn't like public displays of affection especially if not initiated by her (Mom going in for a hug) so he may of just been respectful of her autonomy. But yeah that stuff with the wife was weird. And how the daughter wasn't looking at the Dad but kept looking up at Mom concerned until Mom laughed.

Then again Trump was standing behind them. That would make anyone uncomfortable!

 

[Dancing Fire]

All the PS liberals will have a heart attack when Ginsburg announces her retirement. Another justice nominee for Trump.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Thanks to this whole fiasco. The Reps. will gain 2-3 extra Senate seats.

 

[House Cat]

Thanks to this whole fiasco. The Reps. will gain 2-3 extra Senate seats.

As always, we can expect empathy and dignity from you