Well, Now Brett Kavanaugh Can Face His Accuser

[AGBF]

I agree with everything you wrote above, Monarch. And in recent days I've also wondered about the irony of men having an instinct to protect women (so we're told) but if that's true, why do men spend so much time treating women like shit?

I believe the biological theory is that men protect "their" women because they have an instinctual drive (probably redundant) to keep their genetic lines intact. That may mean that a man can use a woman (e.g. treat her like dirt) as long as the woman does not die or take on another partner, thereby causing problems in bearing the man's offspring.

AGBF

 

[OreoRosies86]

It's disturbing because Dr. Ford did know her attacker, as I knew mine (as closely as two people could know each other) and in her case AND mine people doubted and questioned. It is, I can say, the most horrible and dehumanizing thing in the world and I very literally wanted to die. So I find the devil's advocate stance very disturbing, not just from you but from anyone who would continually seek to discredit the allegations she made.

There were no consequences here nor would there have been. She was dragged through the mud and he was appointed to the Supreme Court.

 

[Jambalaya]

HouseCat - I don't know if you've read on, but I think that privacy should be given to victims, I think they should be allowed to testify via audiolink or by answering questions in writing, I think it was a total slap in the face to Dr. Ford that there was a non-investigation and then he just got the the job, and I think that due process should be followed.

 

[Jambalaya]

Elliot - I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm saying that the democratic process of innocent until proven guilty was not followed. That concept is a bedrock of our culture, and it has been abandoned wholesale in this case. I think that's a dangerous precedent to set. If a male loved one of yours was similarly accused by a classmate or acquaintance, would you blindly believe the accuser without a real, thorough investigation? As I wrote upthread, there are so many people who could have been interviewed, so many questions to ask. At least one of the two is lying or mistaken. A real investigation would go a long way to sorting it out. And I'm truly sorry for what you went through.

I'm arguing for the democratic fairness of a proper investigation. That Rolling Stone fiasco is fresh in my mind. I cannot believe how taken in I was.

 

[Jambalaya]

I believe the biological theory is that men protect "their" women because they have an instinctual drive (probably redundant) to keep their genetic lines intact. That may mean that a man can use a woman (e.g. treat her like dirt) as long as the woman does not die or take on another partner, thereby causing problems in bearing the man's offspring.

AGBF

Good god!! I'm entering a nunnery. Today.

 

[House Cat]

Elliot - I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm saying that the democratic process of innocent until proven guilty was not followed. That concept is a bedrock of our culture, and it has been abandoned wholesale in this case. I think that's a dangerous precedent to set. If a male loved one of yours was similarly accused by a classmate or acquaintance, would you blindly believe the accuser without a real, thorough investigation? As I wrote upthread, there are so many people who could have been interviewed, so many questions to ask. At least one of the two is lying or mistaken. A real investigation would go a long way to sorting it out. And I'm truly sorry for what you went through.

I'm arguing for the democratic fairness of a proper investigation. That Rolling Stone fiasco is fresh in my mind. I cannot believe how taken in I was.

Hi J,

Brett was not at trial. Innocent until proven guilty did not apply.

Everyone said Ford was credible.


Giving victims privacy while testifying may encourage them to come forward. I’m with Elliott, when people start doubting their testimony, it hurts me somewhere deep.

 

[Jambalaya]

These are criminal allegations, though. There should be a trial or at least a non-sham investigation.

Elliot said above that Dr. Ford was dragged through the mud while he was appointed to the Supreme Court. I totally agree that the outcome was just horrible. I can't believe how exposed she was/is. I have no idea why she couldn't "testify" via audiolink, or at least from behind a screen.

The alternative to doubting a testimony is to blindly believe anything that someone says, and that does go against our cultural norms when it comes to allegations this serious.

The selection of a judge should have been put on hold for a thorough investigation and Dr. Ford's privacy should have been protected.

 

[Jambalaya]

And I can't believe a polygraph test was administered to her but not him.

 

[Jambalaya]

I hate to think I've hurt anyone. I didn't mean to. Look, she was very credible. The only thing tugging at my sleeve was a small sliver of "what if"? And I had that because a proper investigation wasn't done. She was not taken seriously, and she should have been. I hope Democrats turn out in force next month.

 

[House Cat]

I hate to think I've hurt anyone. I didn't mean to. Look, she was very credible. The only thing tugging at my sleeve was a small sliver of "what if"? And I had that because a proper investigation wasn't done. She was not taken seriously, and she should have been. I hope Democrats turn out in force next month.

Rape and sexual assault is usually a crime between two people. Wouldn’t there always be a small sliver of “what if” for people like you? I mean..even DNA evidence can be faked!

 

[Jambalaya]

People like me? DNA evidence can be faked? You've lost me there, I'm afraid. I don't know what you mean by either of those things.

All I was saying is that due process should have been followed.

 

[telephone89]

Just today, I didn't reply quick enough to some guy's message on the online dating site that I'm trying, and he sent me a message calling me an asshat, except he didn't say "hat." The time lag was just a few hours. Same thing with another guy who was very annoyed that I didn't get back to him after...wait for it...five hours. Yet I'm guessing that why they don't get laid is a total mystery to these guys.

You might enjoy the forum https://www.reddit.com/r/niceguys
Your experience is hardly abnormal. Its gross and pathetic

 

[Dancing Fire]

The selection of a judge should have been put on hold for a thorough investigation and Dr. Ford's privacy should have been protected.

Yes, Agree with you, but the Dems. (leaked) use her accusation and hopefully drag the investigation past the midterm election.

 

[soxfan]

Yes, Agree with you, but the Dems. (leaked) use her accusation and hopefully drag the investigation past the midterm election.

Wrong again, DF.

 

[Tekate]

Hey Jambalaya, I think with many stories here people knew their attacker, I did, but not really well, but he was with us all night and friends with my mutual friends.

Stranger attacks need a higher level of certainty because it was a stranger, my sister was attacked by a stranger in a elevator in Bronx and it took the cops 3 hours to even come by, but she would have never been able to identify the guy, all she remember was a KNIFE, big and him trying to rape her. Never solved and she never felt safe again.

For all those saying that memory during a traumatic attack is reliable:
https://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/18/opinion/i-was-certain-but-i-was-wrong.html

I think this article is only available to subscribers since it's from the archives. Here it is below. It's exactly this kind of thing why I am am reluctant to condemn BK without a thorough investigation. This article was referenced by another article I was reading today about the Kavanaugh case, which said the opposite about traumatic memory - that in fact it can lead to worse recall, not better. This is the sort of thing I was referring to when I mentioned how Elizabeth Smart's sister said the kidnapper was wearing white and had a gun, when in fact he was wearing black and had a knife.

I was Certain, But I Was Wrong
From the New York Times, June 18, 2000, by Jennifer Thompson.

In 1984 I was a 22-year-old college student with a grade point average of 4.0, and I really wanted to do something with my life. One night someone broke into my apartment, put a knife to my throat and raped me.

During my ordeal, some of my determination took an urgent new direction. I studied every single detail on the rapist's face. I looked at his hairline; I looked for scars, for tattoos, for anything that would help me identify him. When and if I survived the attack, I was going to make sure that he was put in prison and he was going to rot.

When I went to the police department later that day, I worked on a composite sketch to the very best of my ability. I looked through hundreds of noses and eyes and eyebrows and hairlines and nostrils and lips. Several days later, looking at a series of police photos, I identified my attacker. I knew this was the man. I was completely confident. I was sure.

I picked the same man in a lineup. Again, I was sure. I knew it. I had picked the right guy, and he was going to go to jail. If there was the possibility of a death sentence, I wanted him to die. I wanted to flip the switch.

When the case went to trial in 1986, I stood up on the stand, put my hand on the Bible and swore to tell the truth. Based on my testimony, Ronald Junior Cotton was sentenced to prison for life. It was the happiest day of my life because I could begin to put it all behind me.

In 1987, the case was retried because an appellate court had overturned Ronald Cotton's conviction. During a pretrial hearing, I learned that another man had supposedly claimed to be my attacker and was bragging about it in the same prison wing where Ronald Cotton was being held. This man, Bobby Poole, was brought into court, and I was asked, ''Ms. Thompson, have you ever seen this man?''

I answered: ''I have never seen him in my life. I have no idea who he is.''

Ronald Cotton was sentenced again to two life sentences. Ronald Cotton was never going to see light; he was never going to get out; he was never going to hurt another woman; he was never going to rape another woman.

In 1995, 11 years after I had first identified Ronald Cotton, I was asked to provide a blood sample so that DNA tests could be run on evidence from the rape. I agreed because I knew that Ronald Cotton had raped me and DNA was only going to confirm that. The test would allow me to move on once and for all.

I will never forget the day I learned about the DNA results. I was standing in my kitchen when the detective and the district attorney visited. They were good and decent people who were trying to do their jobs -- as I had done mine, as anyone would try to do the right thing. They told me: ''Ronald Cotton didn't rape you. It was Bobby Poole.''

The man I was so sure I had never seen in my life was the man who was inches from my throat, who raped me, who hurt me, who took my spirit away, who robbed me of my soul. And the man I had identified so emphatically on so many occasions was absolutely innocent.

Ronald Cotton was released from prison after serving 11 years. Bobby Poole pleaded guilty to raping me.

Ronald Cotton and I are the same age, so I knew what he had missed during those 11 years. My life had gone on. I had gotten married. I had graduated from college. I worked. I was a parent. Ronald Cotton hadn't gotten to do any of that.

Mr. Cotton and I have now crossed the boundaries of both the terrible way we came together and our racial difference (he is black and I am white) and have become friends. Although he is now moving on with his own life, I live with constant anguish that my profound mistake cost him so dearly. I cannot begin to imagine what would have happened had my mistaken identification occurred in a capital case.

Today there is a man in Texas named Gary Graham who is about to be executed because one witness is confident that Mr. Graham is the killer she saw from 30 to 40 feet away. This woman saw the murderer for only a fraction of the time that I saw the man who raped me. Several other witnesses contradict her, but the jury that convicted Mr. Graham never heard any of the conflicting testimony.

If anything good can come out of what Ronald Cotton suffered because of my limitations as a human being, let it be an awareness of the fact that eyewitnesses can and do make mistakes. I have now had occasion to study this subject a bit, and I have come to realize that eyewitness error has been recognized as the leading cause of wrongful convictions. One witness is not enough, especially when her story is contradicted by other good people.

Last week, I traveled to Houston to beg Gov. George W. Bush and his parole board not to execute Gary Graham based on this kind of evidence. I have never before spoken out on behalf of any inmate. I stood with a group of 11 men and women who had been convicted based on mistaken eyewitness testimony, only to be exonerated later by DNA or other evidence.

With them, I urged the Texas officials to grant Gary Graham a new trial, so that the eyewitnesses who are so sure that he is innocent can at long last be heard.

I know that there is an eyewitness who is absolutely positive she saw Gary Graham commit murder. But she cannot possibly be any more positive than I was about Ronald Cotton. What if she is dead wrong?

 

[Jambalaya]

Telephone - wow. That's just horrifying.

 

[vintageloves]

I agree with everything you wrote above, Monarch. And in recent days I've also wondered about the irony of men having an instinct to protect women (so we're told) but if that's true, why do men spend so much time treating women like shit?

Just today, I didn't reply quick enough to some guy's message on the online dating site that I'm trying, and he sent me a message calling me an asshat, except he didn't say "hat." The time lag was just a few hours. Same thing with another guy who was very annoyed that I didn't get back to him after...wait for it...five hours. Yet I'm guessing that why they don't get laid is a total mystery to these guys.

Just to be clear, the guy who sent me a message calling me an ass**** was a total stranger who I had never exchanged so much as a single message with. He was just that annoyed that I hadn't responded to him, despite the fact that I had an autoreply set up. Talk about entitled. (And don't worry, I'm completely anonymous on that site and he had not seen any of my photos.)

I once refused to sell a guy antiques over craigslist because he was being dodgy about the details of meeting up for the transaction and I decided to pull the plug. He screamed at me and called me a c*nt. It took about three days for me to believe he wasn't going to somehow track me down and hurt me. I no longer sell things online.

So, no, FoxNews, I am not more worried about my husband, bothers, and father in this scary
#metoo era. I love these men more than I can say. But am I more worried about my niece? Damn straight I am.

 

[Tekate]

The left wing media said...if you shake hands with Trump you are automatically guilty of all crimes.

 

[Jambalaya]

Tekate - yes, it's a good point. I was really just demonstrating that memory isn't always perfect.

And I'm so sorry for your and your sister's experiences.

 

[Jambalaya]

I won't say anything else about due process or repeat the other things I've already said - people are aware that I feel the whole thing was horribly handled and that I feel democratic process wasn't carried out. I don't want to keep hurting people who are in pain - and that was not my intention, anyway.

peace

 

[Jambalaya]

Vintageloves - sounds as if you made the right call. Women have to be so vigilant against threats.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Wrong again, DF.

As usual .

 

[Calliecake]

It’s infuriating to hear people doubt Dr Ford. She knew who attacked her. She did the right thing by coming forward and look at what has been done to this woman.

Kavanaugh showed his true character during that hearing. His 45 minute rant and the way he handled the questions that were asked of him should have been reason enough for him not to be put on the Supreme Court.

Kavanaugh didn’t want an FBI investigation and didn’t offer to take a polygraph test. But let’s doubt the woman. SMDH

 

[OreoRosies86]

Reasonable doubt and due process only applies during a trial. This was a job interview.

If I had a job candidate sit down for an interview and then people stepped forward, people who had nothing to gain and much to lose in coming forward, and said "This person assaulted me" or "I believe this person has a history of sexual assault" I would move on to other candidates.

I just hate that this was being treated like a situation where IRREFUTABLE evidence HAD to be presented. It was not! The man proved HIMSELF unfit during the interview itself!

Women, we need to stick together now because who knows what other indignities are headed our and our daughters' way during this life.

 

[Matata]

I just hate that this was being treated like a situation where IRREFUTABLE evidence HAD to be presented.

Have you seen this? https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/10/politics/melania-trump-metoo-evidence/index.html

Snippet: "If you accuse (someone) of something, show the evidence," Trump said in a sit-down interview with ABC News that took place in Kenya last week during her first major solo trip to Africa. She added that women who come forward as victims should be prepared to back up their claims.
"I do stand with women, but we need to show the evidence. You cannot just say to somebody, 'I was sexually assaulted,' or, 'You did that to me,' because sometimes the media goes too far, and the way they portray some stories it's, it's not correct, it's not right," said Trump.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Have you seen this? https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/10/politics/melania-trump-metoo-evidence/index.html

Snippet: "If you accuse (someone) of something, show the evidence," Trump said in a sit-down interview with ABC News that took place in Kenya last week during her first major solo trip to Africa. She added that women who come forward as victims should be prepared to back up their claims.
"I do stand with women, but we need to show the evidence. You cannot just say to somebody, 'I was sexually assaulted,' or, 'You did that to me,' because sometimes the media goes too far, and the way they portray some stories it's, it's not correct, it's not right," said Trump.

Trump is LUCKY every woman he encountered in his life wasn't wearing a body camera. And you know, maybe that's what we need to do, maybe that's where this is all leading. Women must wear body cameras at all times. There's your EVIDENCE. That's what you want, that's literally all you care about, well here it is. Oh you're still not going to take any action? Shocking.

 

[Octo2005]

It's disturbing because Dr. Ford did know her attacker, as I knew mine (as closely as two people could know each other) and in her case AND mine people doubted and questioned. It is, I can say, the most horrible and dehumanizing thing in the world and I very literally wanted to die. So I find the devil's advocate stance very disturbing, not just from you but from anyone who would continually seek to discredit the allegations she made.

There were no consequences here nor would there have been. She was dragged through the mud and he was appointed to the Supreme Court.

I am sorry for everything that you have been thru, sending hugs and know that your PS friends are always here to listen(read)

 

[Matata]

Sooooo, this fall/winter season the predominantly male fashion designers have decided that in light of the #metoo movement, modesty dressing should be the "new" thang
https://www.harpersbazaar.com/uk/fashion/shows-trends/g19131531/autumnwinter-2018-trends/?slide=11

 

[redwood66]

Sooooo, this fall/winter season the predominantly male fashion designers have decided that in light of the #metoo movement, modesty dressing should be the "new" thang
https://www.harpersbazaar.com/uk/fashion/shows-trends/g19131531/autumnwinter-2018-trends/?slide=11

I like those boots. Everything she has on could be cute except that godawful coat.

 

[mrs-b]

I LOVE that coat - and that whole outfit. In Boston in the winter, that coat would be a huge hit!