Visiting GoodOldGold - Any advice??!?

[dazzlerazzle]

Hi lovely PS'ers!!

My boyfriend and I have an appointment to visit GOG this upcoming Friday since we'll be only 3 hours away to visit family. Currently this is the plan:

- We want to commission a custom cut AVR, so...
- Look at a range of colors and sizes of in-house AVR's to get a feel for preference
- Compare the color(s) I like in plat and rose gold semi-mounts to see how the head color affects the stone's color
- Look at some AVC's just for FUN!! (I still def want an AVC, but have decided AVR for e-ring)
- Discuss the custom cutting process in more detail, hopefully with Jon.

After that I'm drawing a blank. Since it's a 3 hour drive each way, I don't want this visit to be over in just 30 minutes!

So, do any of the more experienced diamond connoisseurs here have suggestions on further research I should do while I'm there? Questions I should be asking? Comparisons I should be making? And does anyone have any special requests? Obviously, I don't want to be a nuisance if GOG is slammed - it WILL be Black Friday afterall!- but happy to take photos/vids if anyone has a particularly pressing request.

Thanks in advance for any help! I'm sooooooo excited to finally be starting this process with my boyfriend!

 

[Karl_K]

Lock at all the other shapes and cuts he offers in similar sizes and colors.
Who knows you may fall in love with something else or it may confirm your love for what you want now.
Look at settings.
Play around with IS and ASET scopes.
Ask a ton of questions.
Have some pizza next door.

 

[dazzlerazzle]

Oh, thanks Karl! it hadn't occurred to me to look at anything other than AVR's and AVC's since they've basically been the loves of my life since I discovered them. But it does make sense to go ahead and compare to others to confirm that preferences once and for all!

And I also hadn't realized this would be a good opportunity to use the light-return tools!!

Is the pizza next door really that good? If so, we'll definitely plan lunch there after. Thnx for the suggestions!!!

 

[tyty333]

Ask about timeline...how long to source rought, cut etc.

Try on lots of settings because sometimes what we think we like ends up looking totally not right on your hand. Have fun!

 

[poshmommy]

So glad you are going to check them out! Have fun!!! I agree with the others as far as trying everything on! I really thought I wanted an antique cushion until looking at them against the rounds. That did it for me. I hope Jonathan can meet with you! I think they have much more experience with custom cuts than some of the other vendors. Ask him if they have ever had a stone not meet expectations and what they did to work it out with the customer. (More on that from me later....still waiting on a resolution). Try on a ton of settings! Keep an open mind. Have a happy thanksgiving!!! I hope you find everything you are looking for and more!!

 

[Karl_K]

Oh, thanks Karl! it hadn't occurred to me to look at anything other than AVR's and AVC's since they've basically been the loves of my life since I discovered them. But it does make sense to go ahead and compare to others to confirm that preferences once and for all!

And I also hadn't realized this would be a good opportunity to use the light-return tools!!

Is the pizza next door really that good? If so, we'll definitely plan lunch there after. Thnx for the suggestions!!!

Jon said they had great pizza, I haven't had the pleasure.

 

[Blingalingaling]

If you want to meet with Jon, don't leave it to chance. Call in advance and set up an appointment with him. He will give you a time slot and you can plan your day/travel time around it (and pizza!).
Jon is great to work with, so if you're making the trip it'll be well worth your while! Not that his staff isn't terrific, too, but I'd definitely make that appointment and work with Jon if it's possible!
Good luck and Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[kenny]

Even if you're not considering that shape, ask to see an Octavia Asscher.
They are rare so you may never again get the opportunity to see one.

 

[simurgh]

Maybe look at wedding bands too, particularly if you're going to wear the band with your e ring all or most of the time. You can do this with a salesperson other than Jon ... I'd save his time for the diamonds themselves.

 

[poshmommy]

I'm dying to know how it went dazzlerazzle!!! Come back soon....

 

[dazzlerazzle]

Jon spent a little over 2 HOURS with us and after that the shop got pretty busy, and we had to hurry back to catch our ferry anyways, so we didn't get a chance to do everything suggested.

Here's how it went.

- We took Karl's suggestion to eat at the pizza place next door. We arrived about 45 minutes early for our appointment, and were hungry anyways, so we figured we could fill the time that way. Lo and behold, Jon walks in and I about jumped out of my skin when I saw him pop his head around the corner to say hi! (The pizza IS fantastic!)

- I had sent them a crazy long list of stones we wanted to see for colors G-M. Jon brought them all out and showed them to us face down in the ultra critical lighting of the GIA cabinet. SO and I both agreed that the J was getting a little too tinted for us. SO was blown away by how WHITE the M looked face up in daylight after having seen it in the cabinet!

- We moved over to the storefront window, where Jon let us compare various colors of AVR's, various table sizes of AVR's, and AVR's against AVC's. SO and I were able to confirm once and for all our preference for the AVR's, though that 2xx J cushion he has was soooo gorgeous.

- SO and I also both confirmed we prefer the 50% tables in the AVR to the ~45% tables. I think I may be an outlier in this - Jon seemed surprised. But I like the look of the stone being somewhat evenly split between the inner flower petals and the outer. It draws my eye smoothly across the entire stone.

- In this lighting, we also confirmed that we will shoot for an I in color. DS, you were SOOO right that the I color is as low as a color-sensitive person should go. I agree with you that the lower colors are to die for, and I would absolutely go for them for different jewelry, but not e-ring. (This is obviously for me personally, others LOVE lower colors for their e-ring and power to them!)

- SO, a newbie to diamonds in general, compared a 1.6(?) I AVR to a 1.6(?) I MRB - he wanted to see the difference in person, see if he had a preference. Like a lot of not-detail-oriented men, he finally declared, "I don't really see a difference!" and handed them over to me.

- Jon talked to us about some BIG NEWS that is happening soon. I'm sure he will make a BIG ANNOUNCEMENT to fill everyone in soon. I'm sure the pricescope family will be Over The Moon.

-Tyty, we had already discussed timeline in emails prior to the visit - the ones posted to his website are pretty accurate, except he's recently made new relationships with some additional rough sources so that the search for rough generally goes more quickly now than it used to. I tried on platinum pave mounts and rose gold pave mounts, and SO and I agreed on the platinum. DS - right again!

- Poshmommy, I've been following your thread, waiting for an update. I was curious to see how things went with your vendor, since I had been considering them in the early stages. I am very very sorry to hear it has taken the turn it apparently has. I asked Jon what happens if I'm unhappy with the stone. He said (in general) that whenever a custom is unsatisfied with the way a stone has turned out, he just puts the stone into inventory and starts over. This is what happened with Lainey's stone - it came out a few colors darker than anticipated and he was going to start over for her. But she decided to keep the stone and he gave her a generous discount down to the value of the polished stats.

I didn't ask specifically what happens if, say, the faceting comes out in a pattern I don't care for - something like that would be more on the nitpicky side I think, and would be somewhat part of the risk you're taking on with having a custom stone cut. The only way I could see that happening with myself is if the stone came out with a 45 table when I had requested 50, and the inner facets were pie slices instead of flower petals. I plan to ask him how he would specifically handle that instance, if it were to happen. However, I think the chances of that happening are VERY low, as Jon's cutters are practiced at following the plots and charts Jon asks them to use as reference. He said, for instance, there have been times where he gives them DS's stone's stats and has them work from those, and the results are predictably good. I just think he has been doing this a very long time, has a vested interest in making sure his customers are happy with their results, and besides - has a reliable line of customers ready to buy any stones he puts into inventory. It's not like it will hurt him in the long run to put a custom cut stone into inventory. (Things may be different in the higher carat ranges, like you're working in. He mentioned he's cutting a 5 carat right now - I'm curious to find out how that goes! Would be harder to sell out of inventory, I'm sure!)

tl;dr: I don't think Jon would ever try to force a stone onto an unhappy customer. If the color or clarity came out lower than predicted, or if the faceting were COMPLETELY off from what the customer requested, then obviously that would be on the cutter, as the cutter is the one responsible for accurately predicting these things ahead of time, and for creating a certain faceting.

- Kenny, totally forgot to look at the Octavia Asscher(s), but we will likely be back in the shop at some point in the next few years, so I'll be sure to look then!

- Randon thoughts:
+The 2.07 L (brown tint) stone Jon has in (though I don't see it in inventory today) is to die for. When he brought it out and told me it was brown, I was sure I wouldn't like it, but it was so beautiful. I took videos of the 3.11K and the 2.07L together, and my eye is actually drawn back to the 2.07 over and over. The lower colors really do do beautiful things with the light!
+ The store front is so cute and unassuming. Morgan couldn't get over how we were traveling 6 hours in one day to visit such an unassuming place!
+ Jon is an absolute dear.
+ I could apparently go down to SI and not see a thing. We looked at a few SI1 stones and neither of us could find the inclusion(s)!
+ Excited to learn that apparently cutters can tell from the rough if the fluorescence will make the stone milky or not, so we actually CAN request fluorescence in the rough. (Another vendor I asked said you shouldn't cut fluorescent rough, as there was no way to tell if the final stone would be milky or not.) I want as strongly fluorescent as possible!

- All in all, it was a very successful day! SO and I took the ferry over to the island and back, so that was a nice experience for us. SO felt like he learned a lot, really enjoyed meeting Jon, said he feels a lot more excited about the process now - even said he's "anxious to get started" so he can get the final stone!

- Thank you all for the suggestions and well wishes! We are going to shoot for 2.1ct/I/VS2/strong fluorescence. I currently am leaning toward a platinum setting with top row bright-set pave, milgrained, bright-set pave on stems and basket, milgrained. Basket arms scalloped and tilted out to allow for two rows of pave.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Oh wow, what a GREAT summary of your visit!!! I am envious but extremely happy you had that opportunity!! I think you reduced your chances of making a mistake down to 0 by going and actually seeing the cut and the color, etc. I think your parameters sound good! Would you consider keeping it if it turns out to be J as does happen sometimes? Lainey did surprise me when she fell in love with her stone that turned out a couple grades too low, but that was an AVC and not an AVR. So glad you could try on settings and learn your preferences there, too!

 

[poshmommy]

Thank you so much for the update! I'm so glad you had a great visit. I would love to visit GOG in person! I think you are making the right choice and will be thrilled with the final ring.

I promise I will do a full review of my experience when it's over and behind me. My preliminary advice to you I hope is wasted since GOG may handle the final results differently. But consider negotiating a price up front for any possible outcome that you may be locked into. We negotiated color drop by 1 grade up front. That was it. I figured a 1 grade drop in clarity would be handled fairly (it is stated on the website) and a drop in carat weight was honestly not on my radar. Well, my stone dropped in color, clarity, AND carat weight. We got charged a higher rough cost than the previous stone offerings from my vendor due to the higher carat weight "above and beyond a 4 carat" expected from this rough. I feel like the extra premium charged for the higher carat weight should be refunded since it wasn't delivered. My vendor disagrees. We may both be losing on this deal, but I am still hoping we can meet fairly in the middle at least. It is hard to accept but important to remember that in the end we are just business transactions. Protect yourself and your investment as best you can up front.

Sorry for the slight thread jack! I just really want you to consider the other side and make sure you know how your vendor will handle not only a drop in color, but also clarity, carat weight, light performance, or anything else you expect. I think you are in good hands!

Good luck to you!! Please keep us posted. So very excited for you!

 

[dazzlerazzle]

Oh wow, what a GREAT summary of your visit!!! I am envious but extremely happy you had that opportunity!! I think you reduced your chances of making a mistake down to 0 by going and actually seeing the cut and the color, etc. I think your parameters sound good! Would you consider keeping it if it turns out to be J as does happen sometimes? Lainey did surprise me when she fell in love with her stone that turned out a couple grades too low, but that was an AVC and not an AVR. So glad you could try on settings and learn your preferences there, too!

While 2.1/I/VS2 will be our preferred minimums, I THINK I could accept an SI1, so long as it was eyeclean. I wouldn't want to keep a stone that came out smaller than 2.1 though. I'd probably accept a 2.4 J, but not a 2.1 J. If I'm going to go down a color, I'd want it balanced out with size!

Honestly, I think I -personally- would be ok going down to even a K, but the ladies in SO's family obviously value color over size, and I want HIM to feel comfortable with the ring he's giving me. I would hate for him to have any hesitation, or regrets later about the color, or to feel like he needs to explain away the color when showing to friends and family. And it's not like I need anything much larger than ~2 ct for my ring size!!

Actually, I got my ring size while there and I'm actually only a 4!!! I thought I was a 4.5, but I'd never tried on 2mm bands to know for sure.

Ring Question: I realized after leaving the shop that, while the 4 fit PERFECTLY (had to tug slightly to get it off), GOG had been ambient-cold temperature. My fingers can swell a bit when it's warmer out, so now I'm thinking I should order my ring in a 4.25 or a loose 4. Which do you think is better? Will a loose 4 give me enough room for slight swelling in summer months? I don't want it so loose that it slides around when my fingers are normal - which is what I'm worried about with going 4.25. I don't have larger knuckles that would keep a too-large ring from sliding right off, and I dislike the idea of getting speed bumps or the little inner metal band at the bottom. I think either of those would bother me to no end.

 

[dazzlerazzle]

Thank you so much for the update! I'm so glad you had a great visit. I would love to visit GOG in person! I think you are making the right choice and will be thrilled with the final ring.

I promise I will do a full review of my experience when it's over and behind me. My preliminary advice to you I hope is wasted since GOG may handle the final results differently. But consider negotiating a price up front for any possible outcome that you may be locked into. We negotiated color drop by 1 grade up front. That was it. I figured a 1 grade drop in clarity would be handled fairly (it is stated on the website) and a drop in carat weight was honestly not on my radar. Well, my stone dropped in color, clarity, AND carat weight. We got charged a higher rough cost than the previous stone offerings from my vendor due to the higher carat weight "above and beyond a 4 carat" expected from this rough. I feel like the extra premium charged for the higher carat weight should be refunded since it wasn't delivered. My vendor disagrees. We may both be losing on this deal, but I am still hoping we can meet fairly in the middle at least. It is hard to accept but important to remember that in the end we are just business transactions. Protect yourself and your investment as best you can up front.

Sorry for the slight thread jack! I just really want you to consider the other side and make sure you know how your vendor will handle not only a drop in color, but also clarity, carat weight, light performance, or anything else you expect. I think you are in good hands!

Good luck to you!! Please keep us posted. So very excited for you!

Thanks so much for the well wishes! I'm so sorry to hear what's going on. A few points...

(All points below based on my OWN opinions and understandings drawn from conversation with Jon, and could be wrong)

- Jon would never charge anyone MORE than RAP for a stone based on its final specs. He discounted Lainey a considerable sum (something like 20% the original price, I believe) down to the actual then-current value of her final stone. He also didn't try to force that stone on her. He was happy to put it into inventory.

- I believe Jon wants the customer to be locked into taking the stone if he hits within a 2-grade allowance. I.E. We say I/J, VS - if it comes out an I OR a J, and either VS, he would expect me to accept the stone.

- I have NO idea how he would handle a stone polishing out smaller than expected. I haven't heard of that ever happening. From remarks Jon has made, he has always been able to exceed the customers wishes in every category, except the outlier of Lainey's color.(though, mind you, she requested a 2.0 I believe, and got a 2.5!)

- Jon stated to us while we were in the shop that you pay a certain price to purchase the rough. If the stone you get is BETTER than expected, you pay zero extra. If it is LESS than expected, you get a discount returned to you, down to the stone's value. So I would expect, in searching for a 2.1/I/VS, if we GOT a 2.3/J/SI1, I would NOT be expected to keep that stone, since it falls outside the 2-grade allowance Jon requested. But if I DID keep it, I would be discounted down to the value of the stone.

- Your plight makes me wonder what happens if we hit within the 2-grade allowance but don't quite reach the ct weight we wanted. I'll have to ask Jon about that eventuality, but my impression from him is that he wouldn't expect me to keep it.

- You are right that we ARE "just" business transactions to some vendors. But I do believe that some vendors not only understand the value of having happy customers, but really WANT that. I try to imagine myself in this business... I'm the sort of person who will bend over backwards and put myself out to help others and make sure others are happy. Were *I* to inherit a business like this, I would never think of forcing a stone onto an unhappy customer, and CERTAINLY not without offering a discount down to the actual value of the stone! It's not YOUR fault his cutter's messed up - therefore you should not carry the risk! Honestly, if I were you I'd refuse the stone outright and demand a full refund and get lawyers involved. I can't see how he has any legal right to keep your money when the "delivered" product is not what was initially paid for...?

- Back in August/September, in my initial planning stages, I reached out to your vendor and we exchanged a handful of emails. Any time I started asking questions about how the process went, what pricing was based on, what happened if the stone was better or worse than expected, etc (in order to help my SO out with his budget planning - obviously we'd want to decrease the initial budget if there was a chance of having to pay MORE for a better stone!), he got incredibly squirrely. He'd say things like, "let's discuss that when you're actually ready to get started," or, "it all depends - I can't answer any questions without having specific rough to talk about."

I'm not saying he had any malicious intent, don't get me wrong! I can definitely understand wanting to wait and discuss a specific rough. But I was just asking general questions and he wouldn't give me any answers, and I felt very much less than confident moving forward with him. It was actually this resistance to offering me assurances and answers that made me opt to go with Jon. Well, that and comparing the ASETs with DS's help. For that matter, his recent resistance to allowing customers to request ANY specific measurement in their custom settings also helped me decide against him. I can understand not wanting to be micromanaged, but if I'm paying double or triple the cost of a typical setting in order to get something from you, I'd expect to be able to at least specify shank mm and height/melee size! Overall, it just didn't seem like the customer service I wanted was there. Obviously, his customer service works for many many people on these boards, and that's great for them. But SO and I wanted warmth and some hand-holding. SO doesn't spend this kind of money lightly, and it's nice to work with someone who is very reassuring and forthcoming.

- Finally, did you guys do a contract deal? Or was everything just kind of hand-shake status? I can't imagine handing over that amount of money without some sort of contract in place! I forgot to ask Jon about this. I've already amassed a ton more questions to ask him since I saw him only 4 days ago!

 

[dazzlerazzle]

PICTURES!

(apologies in advance for my double-jointed knuckles. My fingers tend to bend backwards.)

The 2.07 L (brown-tinted) next to my size 4 finger


A ~1ct I resting on a semi-mount to check for contrast between I center and typical melee. On pointer finger because way too big for ring finger.


With flash - sparkles!!!


These stones were kinda of irrelevant to my research, but since I took pics, I'll post them in case they help anyone else!

The 3.11 K and 2.07 L, daylight at the window


Same stones, side view


Same stones, next to a size 4 finger

 

[Victor Canera]

Dazzlerazzle, I’m very happy that you’ve found somebody that you’re happy with. The best of luck on your journey.

I’m hesitant to make a comment on a thread that’s devoted to another vendor and another project but there is mis-information that has been presented here about me regarding the transaction with Poshmommy.

We never forced a diamond on Poshmommy. The range given was not plus or minus 2 grades but plus or minus a single color grade. Poshmommy received a significant discount (about 18%) because the diamond came in at the lower color grade of the range specified which was accepted by both of us. This was in addition to the price that they negotiated down by them from the initial phase. I know she was hoping for the higher color grade of the range but I made clear that there needs to always be a single color grade play for us to move forward with a custom cut diamond. Never in our discussions either verbally or by email was a “price per carat” discussed. The agreement was for a stone that was 4-4.30ct which was on the work order for this project since day 1. Poshmommy chose to enter into further negotiations based on "price per carat" after the completion of the diamond.

So, at the end, yes Poshmommy did a receive a significant discount for the stone because the stone came in at the 1 lower color grade specified and accepted by both parties. Additionally, another ~3% discount was added without Poshmommy asking and included a free band (~$2,400) with her purchase. The diamond ticks off every single checkbox as far as the requirements and ranges that I specified and Poshmommy accepted.

Poshmommy, if you’d like to discuss this publicly on your own thread I would be happy to discuss this there.

All the best,

 

[poshmommy]

Dazzlerazzle, I’m very happy that you’ve found somebody that you’re happy with. The best of luck on your journey.

I’m hesitant to make a comment on a thread that’s devoted to another vendor and another project but there is mis-information that has been presented here about me regarding the transaction with Poshmommy.

We never forced a diamond on Poshmommy. The range given was not plus or minus 2 grades but plus or minus a single color grade. Poshmommy received a significant discount (about 18%) because the diamond came in at the lower color grade of the range specified which was accepted by both of us. This was in addition to the price that they negotiated down by them from the initial phase. I know she was hoping for the higher color grade of the range but I made clear that there needs to always be a single color grade play for us to move forward with a custom cut diamond. Never in our discussions either verbally or by email was a “price per carat” discussed. The agreement was for a stone that was 4-4.30ct which was on the work order for this project since day 1. Poshmommy chose to enter into further negotiations based on "price per carat" after the completion of the diamond.

So, at the end, yes Poshmommy did a receive a significant discount for the stone because the stone came in at the 1 lower color grade specified and accepted by both parties. Additionally, another ~3% discount was added without Poshmommy asking and included a free band (~$2,400) with her purchase. The diamond ticks off every single checkbox as far as the requirements and ranges that I specified and Poshmommy accepted.

Poshmommy, if you’d like to discuss this publicly on your own thread I would be happy to discuss this there.

All the best,

Of course we can discuss this later! I also believe you can start your own thread if you would like. This post is not about you, but about Dazzlerazzle's exciting new project with GOG.

The intention of my post to dazzlerazzle was to point out some things that she should be aware of before she enters into a custom cut. This is an educational board after all. There are things I know now that I wish I had known then. My intent was not to flame you which is why I specifically left your name out of my response to her. If PS had a private message function, I would have used that gladly.

Now back to dazzlerazzle!!

 

[poshmommy]

Oh wow, what a GREAT summary of your visit!!! I am envious but extremely happy you had that opportunity!! I think you reduced your chances of making a mistake down to 0 by going and actually seeing the cut and the color, etc. I think your parameters sound good! Would you consider keeping it if it turns out to be J as does happen sometimes? Lainey did surprise me when she fell in love with her stone that turned out a couple grades too low, but that was an AVC and not an AVR. So glad you could try on settings and learn your preferences there, too!

While 2.1/I/VS2 will be our preferred minimums, I THINK I could accept an SI1, so long as it was eyeclean. I wouldn't want to keep a stone that came out smaller than 2.1 though. I'd probably accept a 2.4 J, but not a 2.1 J. If I'm going to go down a color, I'd want it balanced out with size!

Honestly, I think I -personally- would be ok going down to even a K, but the ladies in SO's family obviously value color over size, and I want HIM to feel comfortable with the ring he's giving me. I would hate for him to have any hesitation, or regrets later about the color, or to feel like he needs to explain away the color when showing to friends and family. And it's not like I need anything much larger than ~2 ct for my ring size!!

Actually, I got my ring size while there and I'm actually only a 4!!! I thought I was a 4.5, but I'd never tried on 2mm bands to know for sure.

Ring Question: I realized after leaving the shop that, while the 4 fit PERFECTLY (had to tug slightly to get it off), GOG had been ambient-cold temperature. My fingers can swell a bit when it's warmer out, so now I'm thinking I should order my ring in a 4.25 or a loose 4. Which do you think is better? Will a loose 4 give me enough room for slight swelling in summer months? I don't want it so loose that it slides around when my fingers are normal - which is what I'm worried about with going 4.25. I don't have larger knuckles that would keep a too-large ring from sliding right off, and I dislike the idea of getting speed bumps or the little inner metal band at the bottom. I think either of those would bother me to no end.

This is something I did while I was waiting on my stone: I bought cheap silver bands from Brighton in a 5 and a 5.5. I wore them everywhere to see what size fit best. I would have liked to try a 5.25 but could not find one cheap. I wore them on vacation, put them on first thing in the morning and slept in them a couple of nights. It helped me pick a size. When my vendor was ready to do the setting I sent him my band to check the size, measure the width, and had him help me determine what size to ultimately do based off my experience over the last few months with the trial bands.

 

[Eva17]

Dazz, great description of your day at GOG. It is a special place run by special people. I don't doubt you will be very happy with your decision in the end. It is very apparent that Jon is passionate about what he does. Glad you had fun and enjoyed the pizza. It is definitely great pizza.


What is up with VC thread jacking. VERY strange and unprofessional. The behavior reminds me of another PS vendor who has fallen off his PS perch.



I am looking forward to seeing how everything ends up and what your finished product looks like.

 

[Skhii]

Thanks for sharing your visit and photos, dazzlerazzle! It sounds like it was a wonderful experience, and I am so excited for you!

When you ask Jon about what he would do if the virtual facet pattern doesn't come out like how you want, could you please come back and share what he says with us? I was under the impression that a diamond qualifies as an August Vintage cut based on its light performance, brightness, and angles. So if an AVR comes back with circles or pie slices instead of flower petals reflected, or an AVC comes back with segmented fans instead of Maltese-cross-like-fans, the client would still be required to keep the stone because it still qualifies as an August Vintage diamond.

Also, regarding the two grade allowance in your example, SI1 is within two grades of both VS1 and VS2. If you were shooting for an VS1, and it came out a SI2, then that would be out of the two grade range. Based on Lainey's experience, she wanted an I, but her AVC came out as a L, which was beyond the two grade allowance (she was expecting a K at the lowest), which is why she was able to refuse the stone. That is my understanding, but please let me know if I am wrong. Thanks again so much for sharing your experience. It is really interesting and helpful!

 

[gm89uk]

What is up with VC thread jacking. VERY strange and unprofessional. The behavior reminds me of another PS vendor who has fallen off his PS perch.

VC has seen posted about his business that he wants to clarify, that is fair enough. On the contrary I do not think their accounts contradict but perfectly emphasises the difference in point of view. This dialogue highlights especially well the issues consumers, like dazzlerazzle, need to clarify prior to going ahead with the project.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I am in agreement with those who now see an imperative reason for having multiple specs and prices (if the diamond falls below the requested ideal size/color/clarity) spelled out in writing prior to the purchase of rough. That protects everyone and avoids potential misunderstandings.

I will just say that I don't think you can hold a vendor to a specific facet pattern as long as the final ASET shows a well cut stone with excellent light return (which is the standard for the line). I know I am happy with my stone and could say to please cut another like mine, but I know the table might be a little different and the facet pattern slightly different. I think a vendor would be crazy to promise an exact facet pattern. The rounds have very little difference in appearance in real life viewing and are much safer to have custom cut (imo) than an antique cushion since those can be in many different shapes, etc. The main thing I would insist on is depth and final diameter. I would not want a 2 ct stone that faced up at 7.8mm, for example. I'd expect at least 8mm for two carats or 8.1 for 2.1 cts. So expressing a minimum diameter in addition to carat weight would be important to me. But you cannot use the same measurements as modern rounds.

As to ring size, I would always go up a quarter size when choosing size in cool/cold weather. The ring may be loose now, but it will not be when a wedding band is added. There is something called a ring noodle which you can buy on Amazon to use if the looseness is a problem until the wedding band is added. I just can't tolerate a tight ring, so I prefer it to be comfortable in the summer and a little big in the winter.

 

[marymm]

What is up with VC thread jacking. VERY strange and unprofessional. The behavior reminds me of another PS vendor who has fallen off his PS perch.

VC has seen posted about his business that he wants to clarify, that is fair enough. On the contrary I do not think their accounts contradict but perfectly emphasises the difference in point of view. This dialogue highlights especially well the issues consumers, like dazzlerazzle, need to clarify prior to going ahead with the project.

Yeah, Eva17, I don't see VC's post as a thread-jack at all; if anything it highlights the fact that even where consumer and vendor have agreed on certain specifics/ranges, the actual outcome (finished stone) can give rise to additional issues requiring resolution.

 

[dazzlerazzle]

Thanks for the advice, Posh! I love that idea - and knowing about the ring noodles going into it will help with my decision. I'm actually not sure that I'll want to wear the two rings together as the design I want for the e-ring involves milgraining on the side that would be worn away by another ring. I may feel differently once I HAVE the rings of course, but I don't feel like I can count on the addition of a second ring to help with tightness. The ring noodle would be a great alternative for cold months!

And thank you as well for helping to keep the focus in this thread where it belongs - I greatly appreciate your valuable input and advice regarding covering my bases. As someone who has just spent months going through this process, your help is invaluable!

Eva - I agree - Jon is very passionate, and I have no doubt I'll be happy with the final outcome!

Skhii - I haven't asked Jon about this - I feel like it really has such a small chance of happening considering how good and reliable his cutters are. And you're right - a 45% table with "pie slice" inner faceting would indeed still be an AVR - and no doubt that pattern is preferred by some of his clients. It takes all kinds! My having a certain preference doesn't at all mean I think it's inherently better than other options. All the AVR's are insanely gorgeous.

I will move forward even if Jon doesn't want to give me any sort of guarantee on faceting "parameters", as I trust him. He seems to have an incredibly good handle on how to get at least exact-ish faceting from his cutters. And at the end of the day, a "pie slice" AVR is STILL an AVR, like you say, with the beautiful light return and pastel shimmers. The fact that this stone will fall into the typical high-demand size/price means it would probably go quickly if added to inventory, meaning Jon may be more amenable to letting me start over. This is ALL just me thinking out loud, mind you. I'm happy to share what Jon says when we actually discuss this.

As for the grade allowance, I think you misunderstand what I/Jon meant by "two grades." He said that as long as the client will give him a 2-grade allowance to shoot for, he's confident he can hit it, and he would want the client to be "locked in." As in, I say I'd be happy with an I or a J or VS1 or VS2, those are his two grades for color and clarity. If he hits outside them, (H or K, VVS2 or SI1) I still have the option of keeping the stone, but he wouldn't hold me to it. Obviously, with him not charging for improved specs, I would certainly want to keep an H/VVS2! But a K/SI1, I wouldn't be locked into. I'm pretty sure I'm interpreting this correctly b/c he asked me in the shop what I thought I'd do if it came out a K. (I answered I have no idea - it would probably be up to SO if he was good with the color once he saw the stone or not.)

I don't think anyone would go this route if they had to be locked in to two grades up or down from their desired specs! You'd have to shoot (and pay for) much higher than you actually wanted in order to offset the chance of the stone coming out 2 grades lower! I'd need to shoot for an H/VVS1 and drop way down in carat. Faced with that, I'd probably rather go true OEC route.

Diamondseeker - I'm not sure if you need to necessarily have multiple prices spelled out or if it's just much simpler to say: "I will pay such and such amount to have you cut a diamond within this 2-grade range we've agreed on. If we fall short of any of the specified criteria, I'm not locked into the stone. But if I do still want it, I get a refund down to the actual market value of a stone with those specs."

I mean, I'm not locked in at this point - as the stone has fallen short, so if I DON'T take the stone, it would go into inventory, right? So why should *I* pay more for the stone than someone who would buy it out of his inventory at its fair market value would?

I say to Jon: [[[2.1-2.3 carat (8.1mm - 8.3mm spread) I/J, VS]]]

Stone comes out 2.0, or 2.1 with 8.0mm spread, or K, etc, I'm not locked in.

If I DID still decide to keep the stone, I would expect a refund for EACH spec that didn't reach our agreed-upon minimums. If it was a 1.9/K/SI1 for instance, I'd want a refund that brought the price down to the value of a 1.9/K/SI1 Jon would sell out of his inventory. If he wan't to give me a refund for only color, that would be kinda ridiculous, as I'd still be overpaying for the other specs.

Of course, if you are going with a vendor who DOESN'T have this policy of refunding down to the fair market value of the actual specs, then YES - certainly you need to spell out final pricing for each and every possibility. Which honestly seems like SUCH a headache.

Lainey's situation comes to mind. A less principled vendor might have said to her: Well, you got an extra 0.5 carats you weren't expecting - that offsets the drop in color, so we're even. But Jon didn't. He refunded her to the value of a 2.5/L. I think his integrity in the area of protecting his clients is unimpeachable and I trust him implicitly in that regard.

As for the question I voiced above in thread, there isn't a long-form contract, but there is a work order contract that I'm guessing spells out the terms of the sale and responsibilities of each party. I'm going to ask Jon to send me this today so I can look it over. I'll also ask him a variety of other questions that have popped up in this thread and report back when I have answers!

 

[girlguineapig]

I spoke to Jon about a custom cut and for myself ended up deciding it's not the route for me. I was going to upgrade my 1.05 ct AVR but I realized I've grown much too attached to the way it looks and would reject certain AVR faceting. Jon did think he would able to make me happy with a recut. But, I would not be able to utilize the 100% trade up for a custom cut, only 75% buyback. So I'm going to be content with my current beauty and am now focusing on other jewelry projects.

Looking forward to seeing how your project turns out!

 

[poshmommy]

Dazzlerazzle, I also decided to take the advice of my vendor and decided not to wear the wedding band on the same finger as my engagement ring to prevent wear on both rings. I quickly realized that the 5.5 was too big for my left ring but fit great on my right ring finger. So for weeks I wore the 2 bands that way....5 on the left ring and 5.5 on the right. I actually liked the look of it. After about a day I got comfortable wearing the band on my right hand. Now, I often split up my current wedding set on both hands. I asked my vendor to do the wedding band a 5.5 for my right ring finger and the engagement ring a 5 1/8 for the left. (Had never considered 1/8 sizing, but he talked me into it). If you do this with cheap bands, remember to put them away in case you ever have a daughter! My 10 year old just inherited the band I did not send the vendor and she's wearing it as a thumb ring. She's so proud of it!

Not that I want you to chance it, but I will tell you that my current set has fine milgrain on the edges of the wedding band and the engagement ring. I have worn them together for 14 years now. They are both platinum and show no signs of wear. Again, I wouldn't chance it now, but if you do want to throw them on the same finger every now and then, I think it will be fine.

Are you going to have GOG set them?

 

[Fantspants]

I am in the process of having a much smaller AVR cut for me by Jon (who is very friendly to work with long distance) and I didn't have a 2 grade clarity specified

The email says "I have the request in for .9xct K/L VS-SI" - to me that would encompass VS1, VS2 and SI1, Sl2 - which depending on your definition could mean 2 or 4....

Although I specified dimensions and that I would be happy with anything eyeclean - I assume you guys were more specific than that?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I am in the process of having a much smaller AVR cut for me by Jon (who is very friendly to work with long distance) and I didn't have a 2 grade clarity specified

The email says "I have the request in for .9xct K/L VS-SI" - to me that would encompass VS1, VS2 and SI1, Sl2 - which depending on your definition could mean 2 or 4....

Although I specified dimensions and that I would be happy with anything eyeclean - I assume you guys were more specific than that?

I'd absolutely eliminate SI2. Many are not eyeclean and I surely wouldn't want to be locked into that.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Dazzlerazzle, I also decided to take the advice of my vendor and decided not to wear the wedding band on the same finger as my engagement ring to prevent wear on both rings. I quickly realized that the 5.5 was too big for my left ring but fit great on my right ring finger. So for weeks I wore the 2 bands that way....5 on the left ring and 5.5 on the right. I actually liked the look of it. After about a day I got comfortable wearing the band on my right hand. Now, I often split up my current wedding set on both hands. I asked my vendor to do the wedding band a 5.5 for my right ring finger and the engagement ring a 5 1/8 for the left. (Had never considered 1/8 sizing, but he talked me into it). If you do this with cheap bands, remember to put them away in case you ever have a daughter! My 10 year old just inherited the band I did not send the vendor and she's wearing it as a thumb ring. She's so proud of it!

Not that I want you to chance it, but I will tell you that my current set has fine milgrain on the edges of the wedding band and the engagement ring. I have worn them together for 14 years now. They are both platinum and show no signs of wear. Again, I wouldn't chance it now, but if you do want to throw them on the same finger every now and then, I think it will be fine.

Are you going to have GOG set them?

Are you doing three sided pave? If not, there's no reason not to wear a wedding band with the e-ring. Some wear a small spacer between the rings just to be extra safe. I personally would not do pave on the doughnut, though.

Dazzle, a doughnut on the e-ring helps protect it from rubbing a band so much. If you just like the look of an e-ring alone, that's fine, but there are usually ways to allow a wedding band to work.