Visa/Mastercard: Returns & ripoffs

[PrecisionGem]

I stopped taking credit cards for the reason Richard pointed out. It was actually worse with rough I was selling than cut stones. Often cutters would buy 10 stones, basically to look the 10 over then select the one they liked best, and return the other 9. So if each stone were roughly $100 I was getting charged around $50 credit card fee to make a $100 sale. Paypal does solve this problem.

I would think most times within a few minutes of looking at the cut stone in person you can decide if it looks like the picture and you want to keep it or not. I can attest that TL sends them back really fast!

 

[Sagebrush]

all,

Ilander, thanks for the vote of confidence. As to a certificate, Tourmaline lover is giving sound advise. I would say, however, that I would charge for a "Prestige Report" the cost is $700.00 I believe so on a $5,000.00 gem...If we are in the five figures, I would be happy to pay. I would see it as a sales tool. You can also get the normal full report which will do the job as well for half the price and without all the images, history and the fancy hard cover.

Just a quick caveat on the AGL "Prestige" though it is issued by one of the world'' foremost gemologists, it too is an opinion and it is based on certain assumptions. Under Cap Beasley, AGL used the Colorscan system. I studied it under Beasley and I have one of the few existing Colorscan sets. IT IS THE BEST SYSTEM EVER DEVELOPED. Why wasn''t it accepted by everyone? Ego and politics. Just the same, two skilled experts could disagree about some of the grading categories, though neither would be wrong. At the very top grades, particularly in the big four, small nuances of grade can make extraordinary differences in value and price and there are differing valid opinions. Gem grading is, after all, an art! At that level you need expert guidance. So I would recommend the AGL report, but not make it the be all and end all of my consideration.

You may recall that in my book, Secrets, I proposed the following as the four c''s of connoisseurship: color, cut, clarity and crystal. This is a very old criterion, I didn''t event it I just brought it back. No lab embraces crystal (transparency) as a quality criterion though I can show you many verbal descriptions where that that term or a synonym is used to describe many very fine stones. Transparency is an overt category in jade and to a lesser extend emerald and Type IIa or "Golconda" diamonds are regularly described as super-transparent. that, in fact, is one of the reasons they cost an average of 50% more than other diamonds with identical GIA grades. My point here is that grading is poorly understood even among experts. For thousands of years nobody told anybody anything. So, two families of ruby traders might have two approaches to grading and since they never discussed the topic there was and still is much odd and at time contradictory information.

In the twenty years I researched before writing Secrets I must have heard six definitions of Pigeon''s Blood. Just five years ago, while researching the term "old mine" applied to emeralds I got three different definitions from four experts. Yet those terms do have meaning. Only in the past decade have we begun to develop (publish) a consistent body of knowledge that everyone understands and accepts and we are not there yet.

I am sorry, I digress. How many days?

 

[lelser]

I allow 7 days from reciept but will extend for if requested for another few days. I agree with Gene, that rough is a tougher inspection than cut and I''ve been fortunate to have very few people do the "send 10, buy 1" trick.

If the client is willing to pay a restocking fee, and tells me upfront that they want to select from 4-5 stones I''d even do that. It''s all about communicating up front.

Vanishingly few storefront jewellers allow returns for refund anymore. Too many people would return a worn item and one person I used to know in the 1980s made a point of "buying" a piece at Macy''s to wear for an event and then returning it. As online sellers it''s important to take returns, but the more someone tells me about what they want and don''t want, the better I can steer them to the right stone so they are more likely to keep it.

Gailey pointed out on another thread that as a small business owner, she likes buying from other small business people. I do make a modest profit on this business, but although my husband calls me "Mrs Gotrocks" that doesn''t translate to "Mrs Gotcash." Excessive returns, long examination times, late payment all hit me directly.

So far, my PS clients have all been extremely respectful buyers for which I''m grateful. It speaks to the quality of the people on the forum.

 

[T L]

Sorry to go off on a tangent, and perhaps we should open a new thread on lab reports, but Richard, the reason I suggest the AGL is that it is the only report that really gives a specific grading of the quality of the color of a colored gem (other than colored diamond).

GRS uses terms like "pigeon blood" and other terminology that really is not specific enough for me, and I think they're a little loose with their color grading. However, the AGL is the gold standard for colored gems in the trade. Cap Beasley is highly respected as one of the foremost colored gem experts in the world. Therefore, I hold the AGL's opinion much higher for appraisal purposes, than Mr. "John Doe Appraiser." Although the AGL doesn't give a value for the gem, it does give you an idea of what to look for when researching what similar qualities have sold for in the past. From what I've read, they do try to be consistent with their grading as well. The other gem labs do not use their standards, no, but they do not grade the quality of color either except some vague comments on the GRS grading report. I think more labs should adopt higher standards like AGL.

I understand that people do not require all the information on the quality of color on a gem, and perhaps only want to know the treatment level. However, if I am spending thousands on a gem, I would require this information from the AGL. I'm not "everyone" of course, but this is very important to me, in particular if I'm spending all that money.

For inexpensive gems, a gem brief or small report that indicates the treatments, would suffice for me. Those are not investment quality gems we're talking about however.

 

[Sagebrush]

TL,

I agree, AGL is the best, really the only option out there. As I said, you don''t really need the "Prestige" report because it is really as much as sales document as a report and the important grading information is contained in the old full report using color, cut, clarity and most important the TQIR total quality integration rating which summarizes the quality factors and gives you an overall grade which gives the layman what they need, Excellent, Excellent-very good and so forth. No one else really does this so there is no real option.

GRS descriptions merely grade the color not the total stone. Rarely, they add a comment. I have a four carat "Kashmir" blue Madagascar sapphire on my site that includes such a comment. AGL provides a rigorous analysis that is comparable.

In my own system, I use a 1-5 grade that first breaks down color into its components hue/saturation/tone, clarity using the eye standard and crystal. I then use a 1-10 to give a TQIR. I am not suggesting that buyer accept my grading since I am the seller and have the seller''s eye. I do some grading (not of my stones) for collectors and I use that same format.

 

[Swala Gem Traders]

Hi All,

What Gene said certainly applies to our company (does it however apply to all non US companies? I don''t know).

We''re charged 4% for Paypal transactions. A refund is possible (I think up to 60 days) without anyone (neither the purchaser nor the vendor) being charged anything.

Voila

 

[arjunajane]

I''m with morecarats and dzop on this one...
Unless I missed it, I didn''t see a thread with shoppers complaining about high return fees - so essentially this thread is an unmitigated complaint about the inherent costs of doing business.
(If I missed the preceding thread I apologize and would like to see it, haven''t been around that much).

As to an inspection / return period - I believe 7 days is appropriate and fair.
As a full time student with a full time job, I can attest there will rarely be a time in a 5 day work week where I would be able to do anything with a stone to have it verified.
Seeing as, from the way Richard explained it, I understand the CC fees are not charged until after 10 days is up, why not offer 7 days instead of 5?


Personally, I much prefer Lisa''s approach of openness, upfront communication and working with each clients'' individual needs and circumstance (within reason of course); rather than a practice of "forcing" a sale after a pre-determined number of days.

Richard, if I may ask do you attempt to contact the client to ascertain what the issue is before you go down this road? As we all know, s**t happens in life - if I were to order a gemstone, than something alot more pressing came up and I could not adhere to the 5 day deadline, I would be quite upset if my hand was forced in an expensive transaction...of course, communication on both ends is key and the client has a responsibility too - just offering a customer perspective

Richard, I hope the info you have garnered from other vendors here encourages you to offer Paypal as an option to your clients, seems like a happy middle ground for both..

 

[arjunajane]

Ilander - "If Richard ever has a return, it''s a buyer issue, not an issue with the stone." Did you really just say that??
Regardless of Richard''s experience, eye, reputation and so on - there will always be returns in the world of gemstones, especially when dealing over the internet.
Clearly, this is a fact for his business or he would not be starting this thread.
I doubt you know any more or less about Richard''s business than Morecarats does, so why don''t we try to reserve our distaste for the actual banks and CC Co''s at the heart of this thread, rather than individual posters, hrm?

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 6/13/2010 11:05:30 AM
Author: Swala
Hi All,


What Gene said certainly applies to our company (does it however apply to all non US companies? I don''t know).


We''re charged 4% for Paypal transactions. A refund is possible (I think up to 60 days) without anyone (neither the purchaser nor the vendor) being charged anything.


Voila

This is the practice as to my knowledge Eric.

 

[iLander]

Date: 6/13/2010 12:23:28 PM
Author: arjunajane
Ilander - 'If Richard ever has a return, it's a buyer issue, not an issue with the stone.' Did you really just say that??

Regardless of Richard's experience, eye, reputation and so on - there will always be returns in the world of gemstones, especially when dealing over the internet.

Clearly, this is a fact for his business or he would not be starting this thread.

I doubt you know any more or less about Richard's business than Morecarats does, so why don't we try to reserve our distaste for the actual banks and CC Co's at the heart of this thread, rather than individual posters, hrm?

I was reacting to these 2 lines by Morecarats, which seemed to be needlessly attacking Richard:

"To see a dealer whine about credit card fees on a consumer forum is somewhat embarrassing. Perhaps the problem is an unusually high rate of returns, which may indicate other problems."

What does that mean, "unusually high rate of returns" and "other problems"? It seemed Morecarats was implying something. I flew off the handle because, though I know nothing about this particular business, I do know something of Richard's reputation and it made me

. I know everyone is perfectly capable of defending themselves on this forum (Richard included), but I felt something needed to be said.

You're so cute, arjunajane. I'll probably say some other things you don't approve of, so you better keep an eye on me . . . hmm?

We'll all be on Maury soon, LOL . . .

 

[PrecisionGem]

The credit card fee''s are a much bigger issue on more expensive stones. Imagine a $40,000 stone with a total of 6% credit card fee''s being returned. The seller is out $2400 and didn''t make a sale.

As far as a cert goes, I think any decent dealer would if they sold a stone and told you is was sapphire, and and a month later you got a valid cert stating it was glass would refund you.

 

[Allison D.]

Date: 6/12/2010 10:49:00 AM
Author: Richard W. Wise
Gene,

My understanding is that Paypal does collect a return fee from the buyer. Perhaps I am wrong.

Best,

Hi, Richard:

I''ve bought stones with several CS vendors using Paypal. A few times, the vendors had to refund me because the stone was in the process of selling when I went through check-out. In these instances, I''ve been refunded full amounts.

I also received a stone from one vendor that just wasn''t the color I''d hoped; I returned that stone as well with full refund and no fees.

 

[Sagebrush]

Arjunajane,

"The inherent cost of doing business." Sounds portentous even inevitable, something that must be carved in stone on the facade of some building, somewhere but what does it mean? Easy for you to say unless and until you find yourself on the other side of the issue. I grew up believing that the U. S. dollar was "...legal tender for all debts public and private." Check out the front of the U. S. dollar bill you will see it written there. However, in the Sunday N. Y. Times I read that this is not so. Companies have begun to refuse payment in U. S. dollars and insist on payment by credit card. As a practical matter that means that it may soon become impossible to business of any kind without, guess what, a credit card.

To get your card, you must sign the contract, Arjunajane, and what a contract it is. Have you ever tried to read one? Basically your credit card contract says that the credit card company can do anything it wants, change the rules, up the interest rate, increase transactions fees, add additional fees and there is not a thing you or I can do about it. Do you believe that VISA should have that much power? Does VISA have an inherent right to charge a fee on every transaction that takes place in this world and, if so, how much?

We can, as the libertarians say, let the market decide. Competition will sort it all out and if you believe that I have some shares of Lehman Brothers I can let you have at a big discount subject, of course, to a VISA transaction fee.

 

[chrono]

I make a decision on whether to keep or return a gemstone fairly quickly; either I like it or I don’t. I never try to make myself like a gemstone. I only need around 2 days to allow time to check it out under various lighting and if I’m unsure, to ask a few close friends with very discriminating eyes and tastes for advice. The sooner the stone is returned, the sooner I get my refund. If the stone is very expensive, then it must be contingent upon a lab report/memo from a very reputable lab, which will provide a very detailed report, testing and the etc, but the 2 days to make a decision still applies. The vendor will be responsible for the sending of the stone to the lab. I will pay for the lab report unless the stone comes back as not matching what the vendor claims (wrong treatment, synthetic, damaged, etc). When I am buying, I prefer an independent report from a third party as I feel there is a conflict of interest when the vendor is the one writing the report.

 

[Sagebrush]

All,

So far, sounds like 5 days is sufficient. BI, that is, before the internet, you did your shopping, compared prices, then made a purchase.

In The Commonwealth of Massachusetts all sales are final. That, btw, is pretty much based on common law going back to Roman times. A purchase is a contract between the buyer and the seller. It is final and why should it be otherwise? Buyers have no more "inherent" rights than sellers. This, of course, assumes that there is no fraud involved

Most buyers don't realize that a return policy is a gift from the seller. In my Berkshire gallery, I accept returns within 10 days for store credit. That credit is good for one year, because after that year, the IRS requires that a credit becomes profit and therefore subject to tax. I am not obligated to to allow returns. Under the law I am obligated to post my return policy (if I have one) whatever it is. It is posted at POS and printed on my sales slips. A couple of months ago a client tried to tell me that I had an obligation to repurchase an item she purchased over ten years ago.

I believe clients should have the right to examine any item they buy sight unseen. That is the difference between my store policy and my internet policy. On several occasions, I have extended the the 5 day examination period. That seems fair and reasonable to me.

Best,

 

[LD]

5 days MIGHT be long enough IF you''re in the same country as the Vendor. If you''re not then 5 days is wholly inappropriate. When does the 5 day clock start ticking? When it leaves the Vendor? When it reaches the Buyer? How would an overseas Buyer (assuming the clock starts on day 1 of receipt), evaluate and then get it back to the Vendor within the 5 day window? This is far too restrictive.

I understand the desire for neither the Vendor or Buyer to be "out of pocket" and so some form of payment where neither are charged in the event of a return seems appropriate but perhaps a tad unrealistic.

 

[movie zombie]

i believe it is 5 days from arrival at your doorstep........

my other alternative is to jump on a plane and visit these vendors. quite pricey and a lot of time involved.

or to settle for stones that are offered for sale within a distance i''m willing to drive.

personally, 5 days has been adequate....again, that is 5 days in my hands. if i can''t make a decision, then it goes back. i must not be "smitten" with it. it is not the vendor''s problem that i''m indecisive. the vendor should have his/her inventory available for sale to someone who can make a decision within the alloted time.

just my opinion.


mz

 

[chrono]

My experience is that the inspection period counts down from the day the buyer receives the stone. The return period countdown ends when the stone is shipped, not when the vendor receives the stone.

I wonder if coloured stone vendors might benefit from the same business practice that colourless diamond vendors do to get around the CC return fees. The price of the CC merchant/bank charges are already built into the final price. However, there is a slight discount, usually 5% or so, for customers who pay by cash, check, MO or wire transfer.

In the scenario of a super expensive stone as suggested, if I can afford a $50K gemstone, hopping on the plane to view it in person would be considered small change and worth it.

 

[VapidLapid]

I was thinking that too Chrono. The Berkshires are lovely this time of year, aka most times of year, and might even be tax deductable if turned into a business trip (if one has some business around there) tanglewood, massmoca The Clark museum.. There is a lot to justify a trip to visit and the one gets to see more than just the one stone as well. Isn''t there some folklore story about Harry winston and richard burton/ET finalizing the stone purchase in an airplane at 30,000 feet over the ocean to avoid sales tax? Must have been a lot of tax if the plane was cheaper. I doubt there was a Visa/MC fee. What if everyone stopped using the plastic?

 

[movie zombie]

the price of what burton paid for some of taylor''s jewelry would certainly justify trying to avoid some taxes by concluding a purchase in such a manner!

mz

 

[Sagebrush]

VapidLapid,

Come on down! Sounds like you know something about the Berkshires, America's premier cultural resort. Hey this summer we got Simon & Garfunkel, plus a signed copy of The French Blue and lunch on me. I have had the pleasure of meeting several members of the forum in past years. I'm waiting for MZ to come to the Berkshire Film Festival.

Five days is difficult overseas, but not impossible. I have sold quite a number of stones abroad, none have even come close to being returned. I think foreign buyers consider long and hard as there are customs, sometimes VAT and so forth. I think domestic buyers are more likely to just order something for a look-see.

As stated. From date of receipt to date of return shipment. I give foreign buyers additional time.

Best,