Vendor Return Weirdness -- WWPSD?

[cookiebuttermonster]

Hi folks, I have never encountered anything like this before, so I wanted to get your input and advice.

I bought a sapphire from a recommended PS vendor with a good reputation. Didn't like it in person and returned it within the return window.

I had paid via international wire transfer. For the return transfer, I sent the vendor my info as my personal banker sent it to me. The vendor replied and wanted the info in a very specific format, so there would be no errors he said. I had my personal banker put the info in the requested format, and sent the info on to the vendor.

Now the vendor is saying he was just scammed by a supplier and is out $30k, he will need a few days to recoup the loss. Then he sent a second email asking if I will allow him to pay me a 10% interest rate on the time he is late with the refund. But no mention of how late he intends to be.

So now I am not sure what to do. The vendor has both the stone and my money. He is international (although I believe he has a state-side office). I am wary to respond to him as I don't want to shoot myself in the foot or agree to anything unwisely.

Like I said, I've never encountered anything like this so I am not sure how to proceed. It seems like what he is proposing should require a contract of some kind? There is nothing in his return policy to cover such a situation. I don't have a personal lawyer to consult. I am in the third trimester of my pregnancy and really don't have the time or energy to be dealing with shenanigans, legal or otherwise. I just want my funds returned.

Any advice or insight?

 

[whitewave]

Gee, I have no idea. I'm hoping a trade member gives guidance...

 

[cookiebuttermonster]

Thanks me too. It is hopefully totally innocent, but I've been naive and a softy in the past and gotten burned for it.

 

[gingercurls]

Hi Cookiebuttermonster. It seems like you are not comfortable with this situation. If I were in your shoes I would also feel uncomfortable and that would prevent me from doing it.

 

[arglthesheep]

Its not easy to answer here. Sounds like he spent the money he earned from your stone already so refund seems a problem. Normally its your decision. If you want you money back he has to pay. In this case it is all but trust. If you have trust (i dont know if you bought before from the same vendor) and the money is not urgently needed, take the interest but he has to tell you when he pays how much and this should be done in writing and you should be ok with this. If not and you need your money, it is not your problem that the money was spent or lost. That is the risk of selling...... Sorry not big advice, but there are not that much choices....

 

[theredspinel]

Which vendor is this?

I'd like to know my money would be used as a loan *before* I hand it over...and not after I've given it.

Everyone goes through tight spots but how immoral to sell something and use the money whilst knowing the customer might return it. Customers aren't here as potential loan options. Upfront honesty says so much if only it wernt so lacking!

 

[Seaglow]

The vendor is asking if you are agreeable to the loan or not. Just say yes or no. If it was me and it's disposable money I can afford to lose, I'd ask for the payment schedule and agree to the loan and get 10%. If not, I'd ask for immediate refund. I'd also study options if the seller could sell stones to me of higher value at a special reduced price instead of a loan.

 

[Muhammad_Ali]

Hi folks, I have never encountered anything like this before, so I wanted to get your input and advice.

I bought a sapphire from a recommended PS vendor with a good reputation. Didn't like it in person and returned it within the return window.

I had paid via international wire transfer. For the return transfer, I sent the vendor my info as my personal banker sent it to me. The vendor replied and wanted the info in a very specific format, so there would be no errors he said. I had my personal banker put the info in the requested format, and sent the info on to the vendor.

Now the vendor is saying he was just scammed by a supplier and is out $30k, he will need a few days to recoup the loss. Then he sent a second email asking if I will allow him to pay me a 10% interest rate on the time he is late with the refund. But no mention of how late he intends to be.

So now I am not sure what to do. The vendor has both the stone and my money. He is international (although I believe he has a state-side office). I am wary to respond to him as I don't want to shoot myself in the foot or agree to anything unwisely.

Like I said, I've never encountered anything like this so I am not sure how to proceed. It seems like what he is proposing should require a contract of some kind? There is nothing in his return policy to cover such a situation. I don't have a personal lawyer to consult. I am in the third trimester of my pregnancy and really don't have the time or energy to be dealing with shenanigans, legal or otherwise. I just want my funds returned.

Any advice or insight?

Hmmm... If I was in your situation, this is what I would do.

Firstly, save all the emails as evidence. Secondly, email him asking him how late he intends to be. If you're willing to do the 10%, ask him to put down in writing a specific date he will repay you and the exact amount, have him print it, sign it and scan it and send it to you.

Otherwise, simply tell him it's unfortunate but you need the money. You've delivered on your end.

I would make sure he has an office in the U.S., that would make litigation considerably easier; of course, litigation should be a last resort.

I'm not a lawyer or trade member, but I was in a similar situation where the dealer had the money and the stone and asked for a week to repay me. I had purchased from him before and knew him well so I did and he paid no problem.

 

[normanintheskywithsapphires]

If it is a trusted vendor, I'd say he just had a spot of bad luck and wants to make it right on you by offering the rather generous interest rate. Running a business is not easy.
You could also ask him to send you a stone of same or higher value in the meanwhile, so that you have at least one part of the value in your hand. If he refuses that I would get antsy.

 

[chrono]

I've had this happen before and after going what I've gone through, I would hold fast to the original business' return and refund policy. Although sympathetic, it took me many months (maybe even a year) to get my money back and I had to make numerous threats to expose him for not keeping his promise. The offer of another stone to hold hostage is useless because gemstones are hard to sell as a non-trade. In addition, we did have a payment plan set, which he could not keep time after time. Even with email trails, things went sour very fast.

 

[theredspinel]

I've had this happen before and after going what I've gone through, I would hold fast to the original business' return and refund policy. Although sympathetic, it took me many months (maybe even a year) to get my money back and I had to make numerous threats to expose him for not keeping his promise. The offer of another stone to hold hostage is useless because gemstones are hard to sell as a non-trade. In addition, we did have a payment plan set, which he could not keep time after time. Even with email trails, things went sour very fast.

This is exactly what I fear. If they are in that position in the first place and were desperate enough to spend sales proceeds before they were fully theirs, I couldn't trust how they'd stick to a payment plan. Sell another stone and use that customers money to pay off this customer?

No thanks.

And to be honest it's not even really about a person being honest or good or not. They can be the nicest person with the best intentions, if they're in a pickle business wise, when I go to buy a stone I'm just not signing up for that! Contrary to what it may seem, I'm not buying these luxury goods because I'm a rich so and so rolling in it, I'm saving for years and months and not buying something else to buy this. So it's just not on to put this situation on top of a unsuspecting customer, morally most people would feel obliged to accept especially if it's someone they've done business with before. It's not on.

 

[SparkliesLuver]

I'm so sorry this is happening to you, especially now.

While my situation wasn't exactly the same, it did involve a vendor who spent my money when they got it. Granted, I sent the stone to AGL to determine if it was indeed natural, so when it came back as synthetic, I asked for a full refund. Unfortunately they didn't have my funds anymore, and told me they'd issue a refund when they could. No interest offered, no time frame offered. Quite frankly, I wasn't sure I'd ever see it again, but thankfully after several months I did get a full refund.

You've been given some good advice by other members. I wish you the best!

theredspinel - you're exactly right: they sell another stone and use that customers' money to pay off someone else. Or so it seemed to be the case. :-/

 

[MollyMalone]

This is exactly what I fear. If they are in that position in the first place and were desperate enough to spend sales proceeds before they were fully theirs, I couldn't trust how they'd stick to a payment plan. Sell another stone and use that customers money to pay off this customer?

No thanks. * * *

But how does saying "No thanks" facilitate cookiebuttermonster getting her refund? A loan-type arrangement provides, at least in theory, fiscal incentive for the vendor to make the refund payment(s) sooner rather than later -- although 10% is appreciably lower than than the average annual percentage rate of interest on US credit cards.

 

[theredspinel]

But how does saying "No thanks" facilitate cookiebuttermonster getting her refund? A loan-type arrangement provides, at least in theory, fiscal incentive for the vendor to make the refund payment(s) sooner rather than later -- although 10% is appreciably lower than than the average annual percentage rate of interest on US credit cards.

Why should any person be made to feel they have to accept a payment plan because the vendor has their hands tied behind their back?

Personally I'd ask for my money back right now and forgo the payment plan. I *will not* be held captive over something like this. The power is totally in OP's hands.

 

[Bluegemz]

So sorry about this terribly awkward situation. It's unfortunate that the seller has put you in the position of having to feel like the mean one if you don't agree to the loan. Hence, the info about having been swindled for 30k. Though this maybe true, I suspect sharing this is intended to pull on your heartstrings.
For me, it would depend on how much I needed the money, and on trust of the vendor. If I felt that I could afford to wait, and felt like I could trust enough to give seller some slack, I'd maybe go for the loan, but with crystal clear terms agreed upon and signed.
It would be of course safest to simply ask for the money back straight away, and if I couldn't afford to wait, or don't want, or can't trust the vendor, that's what I would do. If you agree to wait, you are agreeing to have to deal with the vendor until you recoup your money. That can be a lot of hassle. Do you have the energy for that?

 

[MollyMalone]

But how does saying "No thanks" facilitate cookiebuttermonster getting her refund? A loan-type arrangement provides, at least in theory, fiscal incentive for the vendor to make the refund payment(s) sooner rather than later -- although 10% is appreciably lower than than the average annual percentage rate of interest on US credit cards.

Why should any person be made to feel they have to accept a payment plan because the vendor has their hands tied behind their back?

Personally I'd ask for my money back right now and forgo the payment plan. I *will not* be held captive over something like this. The power is totally in OP's hands.

The payment was made via a wire transfer; unlike credit card payments, there's no "charge-back" procedure available for wire transfers. So I'm wondering what power you think is in her hands. I fear the vendor has her "over a barrel."

 

[Arcadian]

This is particularly bad. I do feel for both parties.

I'm hoping that you both come to an agreeable resolution, at the same time, I'm pissed off for you. If a vendor offers an inspection period, they should also be able and willing to refund within a reasonable amount of time when they get their product back.

 

[minousbijoux]

I'm pissed off for you. If a vendor offers an inspection period, they should also be able and willing to refund within a reasonable amount of time when they get their product back.

This.

 

[whitewave]

I would say no because how do you know he isn't going bankrupt?

 

[theredspinel]

The payment was made via a wire transfer; unlike credit card payments, there's no "charge-back" procedure available for wire transfers. So I'm wondering what power you think is in her hands. I fear the vendor has her "over a barrel."

I agree she is totally being made to feel over a barrel. But I wouldn't just lie there and accept my fate, I'd be doing whatever I can to not lie there in that vulnerable position.

 

[partgypsy]

My opinion? That they got scammed by a vendor is not your problem. I would stick to original agreement, and get your money back. If they need money that badly, they can use credit cards, get a loan, etc. Not your problem. I would worry about lines being blurred, that initially have a straightforward transaction, and now you are in essence loaning money to this business, which you did not intend.

 

[Tourmaline]

I think the vendor should be outed here if he refuses to give you the money pretty much immediately.

 

[MollyMalone]

The payment was made via a wire transfer; unlike credit card payments, there's no "charge-back" procedure available for wire transfers. So I'm wondering what power you think is in her hands. I fear the vendor has her "over a barrel."

I agree she is totally being made to feel over a barrel. But I wouldn't just lie there and accept my fate, I'd be doing whatever I can to not lie there in that vulnerable position.

Apologies for not making myself clearer. I didn't mean he has her "over a barrel" re an agreement to payments with interest. I was thinking in "big picture" terms, i.e., there isn't a proactive measure, comparable to initiating the charge-back process were this a credit card transaction, available in the wire transfer scenario.

I think the vendor should be outed here if he refuses to give you the money pretty much immediately.

I've purposefully refrained from asking if the vendor is who I think it is, in case she wanted to give him that kind of ultimatum. Hopefully, he won't be another Daniel M., who blew off the PS community starting 3 years ago:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/whats-going-on-with-danielm.203426/

 

[LLJsmom]

But how does saying "No thanks" facilitate cookiebuttermonster getting her refund? A loan-type arrangement provides, at least in theory, fiscal incentive for the vendor to make the refund payment(s) sooner rather than later -- although 10% is appreciably lower than than the average annual percentage rate of interest on US credit cards.

Then the vendor would need to borrow money from somewhere else. He vendor should not be borrowing from the client.

 

[LLJsmom]

Firm and immediate no. Not personal at all. Just want to keep the communication clear and the original business arrangement consistent. The vendor needs to handle his business on his end. The client is the client. Not a lender. Must respect the distinction.

 

[Arkteia]

I would second a no. And no interests, no installments. I yet have to get back the deposit from a jeweler who last communicated with me in the April of 2016. We have agreed on installments. Instead of the first one, I got the email saying he had no money, and that was all. So from personal experience - no agreements, no installments, he has to pay you back all in lump sum. Otherwise you may never get it.

If the vendor can not organize his business, or organizes it in such a way that he does not have the funds to cover prompt returns, then it is not worth it, and really, not your problem. It is a tough world, and there are many cutters and vendors competing for sales or starting businesses. If you had the funds, and were still looking for the sapphire, you could have already bought some other stone from someone else. As it is, you are still supporting this vendor's business, covering his losses, and the stone was not even worthy of it. Also, you are in the third trimester of pregnancy (and we all know how much sleep one needs at this time!), stone-less and funds-less. If I only could extend my compassion, and I sincerely wish that the situation is resolved soon.

I remember how two years ago, a jeweler friend told me, "in our business, the jewelers do not cheat the clients, it is all about the reputation". Since that time, with own experience, and by reading posts like this, I have found out that sadly, it is not that simple. But maybe if the vendor is PS-recommended, he would value his spot on the PS list?

Also - a question to everyone - while I know that wire transfer allows you to save some money, credit card and PayPal offer more protection. Should we consider it while making payments, especially abroad? People do not seem to live up to their reputation, it seems.

 

[theredspinel]

I really want to know who this vendor is! Don't want to inadvertently buy from him.

 

[chatoyancy]

This is very disturbing. I would be freaking out if I was in this situation. I would also like to know the vendor name. Now I know not to do a wire transfer. I am so sorry this is happening to you and hope this is resolved post haste.

 

[Tourmaline]

The OP hasn't commented in a long time.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

I would second a no.........

I remember how two years ago, a jeweler friend told me, "in our business, the jewelers do not cheat the clients, it is all about the reputation". Since that time, with own experience, and by reading posts like this, I have found out that sadly, it is not that simple. But maybe if the vendor is PS-recommended, he would value his spot on the PS list?

Also - a question to everyone - while I know that wire transfer allows you to save some money, credit card and PayPal offer more protection. Should we consider it while making payments, especially abroad? People do not seem to live up to their reputation, it seems.

Great post Arkteia. Sorry you had a bad experience like the OP. I agree that CC and Paypal offer more protection. I think it is wise to pay thru PP with a CC. I feel safer knowing that if PP doesn't protect I can initiate a charge back. So far this has never happened to me and I hope it never does- but I feel very bad for people who put their trust in a vendor and lived to regret it.