shape
carat
color
clarity

Vanadium beryl vs emerald

Discussion in 'Colored Gemstones' started by T L, May 16, 2019 at 7:32 PM.

  1. T L
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    21,276
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    by T L » May 16, 2019 at 7:32 PM
    in order to not continue to hijack a recent thread l, (my apologies to the OP), I just wanted to point out that this article from the “Gemology Project” indicates that GIA believes all vanadium beryl is emerald. I mentioned in the other thread that one should defer to GIA on what is an emerald, but I suppose I would probably view many emeralds in person before considering any green beryl.

    I don’t know what the AGL stance is on vanadium beryl vs emerald.

    http://gemologyproject.com/wiki/index.php?title=Vanadium_Beryl
     
    TreeScientist and whitewave like this.
    


    


  2. chrono
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    36,847
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2004
    by chrono » May 16, 2019 at 8:24 PM
    That article was last edited in 2006. It’s possible that GIA has changed its stance on what’s an emerald since?
     
    Rad_Fan and T L like this.
  3. T L
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    21,276
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    by T L » May 16, 2019 at 9:05 PM
    Good point Chrono.

    “GIA uses lab-graded comparison stones to determine if the green color is dark enough and saturated enough to be called emerald.”

    https://www.gia.edu/emerald-description

    I guess they did change their stance.
     
    TreeScientist and chrono like this.
  4. Bron357
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    2,951
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2014
    by Bron357 » May 16, 2019 at 9:32 PM
    I’m just waiting for a consensus on Rubies.
    When does a pink sapphire become a Ruby?
    I once read an interesting article about the Asian markets who have for centuries referred to pink or red corundum as Ruby, it is only a more recent “European” idea to introduce the term “pink sapphire”.
     
    Arkteia likes this.
    


    


  5. T L
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    21,276
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    by T L » May 16, 2019 at 9:42 PM
    Or what makes a copper bearing tourmaline a Paraiba or an orange pink sapphire a padparadcha. It seems like some guidelines were published in the latter, but vendors are not required to use them in their labeling??? Is there also too much ambiguity with any of these gems??
     
    Arkteia and TreeScientist like this.
  6. arkieb1
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    7,746
    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    by arkieb1 » May 17, 2019 at 12:03 AM
    Call me old fashioned but I'm in the camp it's not an emerald..... because it's not the exact same thing as an emerald.... just as much lighter coloured beryl is also not considered in the trade an emerald.
     
    Bluegemz and TreeScientist like this.
  7. voce
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    1,442
    Joined:
    May 13, 2018
    by voce » May 17, 2019 at 1:07 AM
    It depends on which Asian markets you refer to. Gem-rich India produced a lot of saturated pink corundum, and pure red stones from Ceylon/India were very rare, so they used the word for ruby very interchangeably without distinguishing between red and pink. In Burma, however, they clearly DID distinguish between the red and pink in the language they used to describe the stones. If only stones of a certain hue and saturation were defined to be rubies, then the stones unearthed in India and used on the royal finery of Mughal emperors were mostly pink sapphires.
     
    Arcadian, prs, ChaiK and 2 others like this.
  8. TreeScientist
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    1,131
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    by TreeScientist » May 17, 2019 at 3:34 AM
    Excellent thread @T L, I hope this leads to some fruitful discussions on what constitutes these "named" stones. Regarding ambiguity, I think that most of the labs are too liberal with granting these name designations (GIA seems to be fairly strict with Emeralds, but their definition of Padparadscha is, IMO, about as loose as they come). But really, can you blame them? Most of the reputable labs are committed to being as open and transparent as possible when it comes to reporting treatments, but at the end of the day, they are businesses too. A business based on grading gemstones… So if they all of a sudden are seen as “too strict” by traders when it comes to assigning something as subjective as a color designation, and the traders stop sending them stones and send them instead to another reputable lab that is ever so slightly looser with the color designations, then that’s less money in their pockets. I guess it’s a delicate balance between maintaining your reputability with consumers and at the same time keeping your "customer base” (aka traders) happy. The price difference between an orange/brown sapphire and a pad can be 2-4X. Ditto Emerald vs Green Beryl. For traders, getting that name designation is big business.

    Personally, I would never trust a lab to tell me whether a particular stone meets the criteria to be called an Emerald, Pad, Ruby, Pariaba, etc. Reputable labs are excellent for confirming the objective criteria of chemical composition and treatments, nothing more. Origin and color variety are subjective opinions. With the named varieties that carry a premium, trust your eyes only. Unaltered videos in multiple kinds of lighting and, ultimately, seeing the stone in person, are the only reliable ways to judge a gemstone.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019 at 3:40 AM
    chrono, T L and voce like this.
  9. T L
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    21,276
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    by T L » May 17, 2019 at 9:32 AM
    I agree that there is too much ambiguity with certain gems. Thank goodness for consumer educational forums like this.

    Anyways I have a photo of various toned emeralds here, which I think is helpful. Awful picture, but you get the idea. Unfortunately, my vanadium is at the bank so I can’t post it with these to show the differences in tone.
    0515F7A0-5EC0-46D7-A04B-B469273A1963.jpeg

    From left to right - medium, two medium darks with slight variation between the two and a dark gem, which IRL has amazing color, even though it looks like a black onyx here.

    I also tried to get a more accurate photo of the medium toned stone on the left. It’s very pretty, but the darker ones are finer material. This is still many times darker in tone than my vanadium, which is reminiscent of a pale green tourmaline or greenish aqua.

    8AD8B569-99F0-4F21-84CD-67219B08D12B.jpeg
     
    strawrose, Arcadian, voce and 3 others like this.
  10. lambskin
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    1,952
    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    by lambskin » May 17, 2019 at 10:17 AM
    Wow beautiful emeralds TL.
     
    T L likes this.
    


    


  11. TreeScientist
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    1,131
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    by TreeScientist » May 17, 2019 at 10:30 AM
    Love your medium green Emerald TL. Beautiful bluish green. :)
     
    T L likes this.
  12. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    7,215
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2014
    voce and T L like this.
  13. DauphineMucha
    Shiny_Rock

    Messages:
    116
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    by DauphineMucha » May 17, 2019 at 11:59 AM
    Could we pls see them under sunlight? They are amazing and it would be nice to see them more!
     
    T L likes this.
  14. T L
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    21,276
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    by T L » May 17, 2019 at 1:29 PM
    F568CEEE-42CF-40DA-A57A-73D16358578A.jpeg

    @DauphineMucha, Thank you!

    Sunlight is hard, because they just look like green squares in that kind of lighting in photographs. I’ve tried 1 million times to take pictures of these germs in the sun. This is my set emerald which is dark tone in evening sunlight. It is as dark as the one all the way on the right.
     
    voce and strawrose like this.
  15. T L
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    21,276
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    lovedogs likes this.
    


    


  16. T L
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    21,276
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    by T L » May 17, 2019 at 1:41 PM
    Thank you very much, I was thinking of setting all of them together and making a pendant, in high karat yellow gold, but I don’t wear pendants.

    I remember when they brought up that Spanish ship wreck, the Atocha, near Florida many years ago. I guess the shipwreck was from the time of early Spanish conquest in the Americas. They were on route to bring back many Columbian emeralds to the royal family of Spain. There were several loose crystals in this ship. That shipwreck had so many emeralds, and although they were underwater for hundreds of years, they were absolutely drop dead gorgeous. When I see all my emeralds together like this, I always think of old renaissance emerald jewelry, and that’s why I wanted to do some high karat jewelry with them.

    The divers remembered seeing them “glowing” on the ocean floor, and they were therefore easy to spot.

    Here an inspiration piece from the that ship, but I had five loose emeralds at the time. I’ve set one of them (see above). This was probably underwater for more than 400 years, and there’s absolutely no treatment.

    FDCBF51A-F535-4713-9F04-9AEC6203D04C.jpeg
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019 at 1:53 PM
    Candice, Crazie4Cuts, Arkteia and 3 others like this.
  17. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    7,215
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2014
    by lovedogs » May 17, 2019 at 2:53 PM
    Makes sense that I love it, since paraiba color is my favorite
     
    T L likes this.
  18. voce
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    1,442
    Joined:
    May 13, 2018
    by voce » May 17, 2019 at 4:01 PM
    Omg how gorgeous! Thank goodness for my wallet that that's a pear shape! I have a green paraiba from/with Yvonne that I expect to set this summer, and it's requiring a custom design because every pear is different; I love the emerald you picked out, but it's really similar to what I already bought from Yvonne! I'd love to see whether you've gotten emeralds yourself, and if so, how you're setting them. I noticed you had sold the synthetic cut by Precision Gem to someone else, but does that mean you're on the lookout for or have acquired a natural emerald at the moment?
     
  19. T L
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    21,276
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    by T L » May 17, 2019 at 4:21 PM
    I would just caution on getting an emerald that’s too light, because some may look like Paraiba, and others may look like fish gravel. Not all light toned emerald has a glow, just as not all dark emerald has a metallic sheen.

    Here’s a poor example of pale emerald for any newbies reading this. I would ask for multiple photos of any pale emerald in various lighting.

    E5234B52-06AC-4A71-A53B-9876292B3E1E.jpeg
     
  20. lovedogs
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    7,215
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2014
    by lovedogs » May 17, 2019 at 5:01 PM
    Nope, I don't have any and am not exactly looking. I sold the one from Gene bc it was too green (vs green/blue)
     
  21. lilmosun
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    1,446
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2014
    by lilmosun » May 17, 2019 at 6:00 PM
    That being said, I have bought lighter colored glowy emeralds for exactly that reason...looks like a green paraiba at much less the cost. For example, the emerald that I bought from Yvonne specifically to go with a blue Paraiba (which is now set in @sapphiremomma 's pendant. But I get what you are saying (i.e. didn't buy it for the sake of owning an emerald nor at top emerald prices).
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019 at 6:12 PM
    lovedogs and sapphiremomma like this.
  22. voce
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    1,442
    Joined:
    May 13, 2018
    by voce » May 17, 2019 at 6:14 PM
    T L, what do you mean by metallic sheen? I do prefer the gota de aceite look, but I don't think that looks metallic at all to me. Is a metallic sheen a desirable or undesirable trait to have?

    By the way, where is that pale emerald from? I think that (not-as-blue) green is what I associate with Brazilian emeralds. Was that indeed Brazilian?
     
  23. T L
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    21,276
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    by T L » May 17, 2019 at 6:14 PM
    Well it’s a very good thing that they cost less these days, who knows, some in the trade might start calling them “Paraiba colored emeralds” and charge a fortune. I’m serious. They're doing the same thing with apatite, which is causing prices to rise.

    Inclusions in some emeralds do scatter the light though and can cause them to glow when hit with the right light source.

    Flash photo of my medium toned emerald. I didn’t want to post this, because it only looks like this if a strong light is flashing on it, but it’s an example of light scattering. Of course the saturated bluish green color helps too.

    935A86EE-17CF-40A3-8947-266A245498E0.jpeg
     
    DauphineMucha and voce like this.
  24. T L
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    21,276
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    by T L » May 17, 2019 at 6:20 PM
    To me, and maybe I’m the only one that sees it this way, fine emerald reminds me of deep bluish green foil. I love that look.

    ....kind of like this, or satin.

    1A1C82F8-B3A5-4D84-9DF2-2F50C7DA13D3.jpeg

    I just grabbed that pale emerald photo off the internet. Not sure where it’s from. The multicolour.com one that you loved that lovedogs posted is from Madagascar.
     
    leslie1956 and voce like this.
  25. voce
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    1,442
    Joined:
    May 13, 2018
    by voce » May 17, 2019 at 6:37 PM
    I love satiny emeralds but find metallic sheen unappealing. If it's the same type of effect, then maybe the metallic look is just "too much of a good thing"? I think the gota de aceite when it looks satiny and organic is the loveliest in emerald, but maybe it has to be just the right amount of that particular inclusion for the satin look.
     
  26. T L
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    21,276
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    by T L » May 17, 2019 at 6:54 PM
    I think what I see as a metallic sheen is basically the satiny look you describe, or “drop of oil” look. ????

    I posted this video the other day and this sheen looks metallic to me. I adore this pair of stones.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BxZUU5Zl4H1/?igshid=10jq057u1kj5j
     
  27. DauphineMucha
    Shiny_Rock

    Messages:
    116
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    by DauphineMucha » May 17, 2019 at 7:16 PM
    Love this! I see more than just green square! I see the metallic/foil effect which you referred above! Is this 1 of your medium dark emeralds pictures indoor? Come on, show us more of your emeralds! :mrgreen2:
     
  28. Rad_Fan
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    654
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    by Rad_Fan » May 17, 2019 at 7:23 PM
    Great story! Am I crazy to think that it's a romantic story of emeralds?

    Somehow it also reminds me of those 4 big emeralds on the Topkapi Dagger!
    The Topkapi Emerald Dagger.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019 at 7:29 PM
    T L likes this.
  29. T L
    Super_Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    21,276
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2008
    by T L » May 17, 2019 at 7:25 PM
    Thank you!!

    No, it’s the same exact color and tone of the dark toned one that looks like a black onyx in my photo above, with the four stones in my hand. It’s a drag to photograph, but thank you!!

    Here’s slightly better photos of the two medium darks that are not as fine in color, but they have a bit of metallic sheen. Incandescent light again, but maybe I’ll try on a sunny day. Top one is about 1.5 cts and bottom is around 1.3 cts
    C7B1077F-6A47-4212-B73D-ECD2279B9D7D.jpeg 43AC7AA0-994E-4FE9-92E4-7B6024304703.jpeg
     
    DauphineMucha likes this.
  30. voce
    Brilliant_Rock

    Messages:
    1,442
    Joined:
    May 13, 2018
    by voce » May 17, 2019 at 7:30 PM
    I think that maybe it's because of how difficult emeralds are to photograph and/or take videos of, but that does look metallic instead of satiny to me; satiny to me is more of a softer glimmering effect, like the fabric; metallic is too much sheen for me. It's perhaps possible that whereas I expect satin to have more of a soft glow compared to metallic, where glow is less apparent, that the stones you posted may have more glow in real life than the camera picks up. So it's possible I'd love them in real life, but I wouldn't make the decision to purchase them based on the pictures as I see them on the computer screen.
     
    T L likes this.

Share This Page