usps and radiation!

[Cehrabehra]

Talk to us about how it could possibly affect the stones???

 

[FluorIsMore]

Are you talking about X-rays or actual nuclear radiation? X-rays won't affect the stones because it's based on transmission.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 10/16/2006 7:19:03 PM
Author:Cehrabehra
Talk to us about how it could possibly affect the stones???

Thanks for posting this question, I saw it brought up in another thread and was like HUH?? I need to know this too before I send my oval to be set.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 10/16/2006 7:34:14 PM
Author: FluorIsMore
Are you talking about X-rays or actual nuclear radiation?

LMAO!! Neither... have you ever heard of irradiated meat? I am pretty sure it''s not nuclear radiation LOL I think they use micro or gamma wave technology... but it hadn''t crossed my mind that they were doing it to packages, though it kinda makes sense I GUESS. And it hadn''t occurred to me that it could affect, possibly, diamonds. So I''m asking for more info!

 

[FluorIsMore]

Date: 10/16/2006 7:39:51 PM
Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 10/16/2006 7:34:14 PM

Author: FluorIsMore

Are you talking about X-rays or actual nuclear radiation?

LMAO!! Neither... have you ever heard of irradiated meat? I am pretty sure it's not nuclear radiation LOL I think they use micro or gamma wave technology... but it hadn't crossed my mind that they were doing it to packages, though it kinda makes sense I GUESS. And it hadn't occurred to me that it could affect, possibly, diamonds. So I'm asking for more info!

I'll take a stab at it from a scientific stance from college science class. Micro and gamma waves affect organisms but do not affect molecular structures of materials.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Well, all I can say is many, many stones have been sent that way..not to mention many more going through the x-ray machine in carry-on bags.

 

[Scott Terence]

Gamma irradiation is emitted by heavy atoms like Uranium. It is because of these natural sources of high energy photos that natural green diamonds exist. The gamma rays create defects in the carbon crystal lattice thereby altering the absobance spectra of the diamond yielding the green hue. The ability to alter the color of diamonds was discovered when a diamond was allowed to rest with highly radioactive radium and lo and behold it changed colors permanently. Xrays and gamma rays are similar in energy and characteristics, and the major difference in how they are generated (nuclear decay vs material excitement), so CB you def bring up a valid pt about high energy xray scanners potentially altering the color of your precious Alas I know not the answer to whether its energy output is high enough, it is my understanding that linear accelerators/cyclotrons are employed for controlled irradiation for color changes and those are pretty big guns

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 10/16/2006 8:34:43 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Well, all I can say is many, many stones have been sent that way..not to mention many more going through the x-ray machine in carry-on bags.

i was thinking the same thing DS...

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 10/16/2006 8:36:08 PM
Author: mrssalvo

Date: 10/16/2006 8:34:43 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Well, all I can say is many, many stones have been sent that way..not to mention many more going through the x-ray machine in carry-on bags.

i was thinking the same thing DS...

Rockdoc brought it up in the diy appraisal thread and I''m hoping to get some clarification of his concerns at the least...

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 10/16/2006 8:41:46 PM
Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 10/16/2006 8:36:08 PM

Author: mrssalvo

Date: 10/16/2006 8:34:43 PM

Author: diamondseeker2006

Well, all I can say is many, many stones have been sent that way..not to mention many more going through the x-ray machine in carry-on bags.

i was thinking the same thing DS...

Rockdoc brought it up in the diy appraisal thread and I''m hoping to get some clarification of his concerns at the least...

yeah, i saw his comment in the other thread and hope some experts would respond here to your question but I guess I don''t fully get it. probably b/c it''s over my head

but the good folks at WF will only exept stones from customer''s via USPS and I would think if there was a huge risk they''d have people shipping another method, same goes for any other vendor who ships or asked to be shipped to this way.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 10/16/2006 8:44:49 PM
Author: mrssalvo

Date: 10/16/2006 8:41:46 PM
Author: Cehrabehra


Rockdoc brought it up in the diy appraisal thread and I''m hoping to get some clarification of his concerns at the least...

yeah, i saw his comment in the other thread and hope some experts would respond here to your question but I guess I don''t fully get it. probably b/c it''s over my head

but the good folks at WF will only exept stones from customer''s via USPS and I would think if there was a huge risk they''d have people shipping another method, same goes for any other vendor who ships or asked to be shipped to this way.

maybe the larger the stone the greater the risk? He did think my stone might be over 8 carats LOL

 

[ccv90]

Having spent part of my working career involved with radiation in the Nuclear industry, I can assure you that the amount radiation that your diamond receives from an x-ray machine is FAR from the amount needed to turn it different color.

Even if the machine was out of calibration and emitted more radiation than necessary (which it can''t) your stone is safe.

Although, I have seen pic''s somewhere in my past that showed a diamond that had turned black from exposure. The amount used to achieve this effect was SO HUGE (like 1000 Rads/hr for 100 hours) that unless you were locked up in an operating Nuclear Reactor for a year, holding the fuel source in you hand, you have nothing to worry about

 

[denverappraiser]

This issue came up in a fairly big way after the issue of mailing poisons hit the news and the postal service stepped up their automated inspections of packages. There continues to be some concerns for some specific types of stones and sensitive things like undeveloped high speed film but diamonds are not one of the items that are a worry. USPS registered mail continues to be the best way for consumers to ship diamonds from a US address to another US address as long as the declared value is below the insurance limit ($25,000)

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 10/17/2006 7:06:27 PM
Author: denverappraiser

This issue came up in a fairly big way after the issue of mailing poisons hit the news and the postal service stepped up their automated inspections of packages. There continues to be some concerns for some specific types of stones and sensitive things like undeveloped high speed film but diamonds are not one of the items that are a worry. USPS registered mail continues to be the best way for consumers to ship diamonds from a US address to another US address as long as the declared value is below the insurance limit ($25,000)

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Thanks Neil.

 

[RockDoc]

I am not sure what the post office uses, as far as the type and strength of radiation.

The concern I have on the USPS insurance, is that if the package is lost, it is not a problem. But if it is damaged, getting an insurance claim through can be a bit tough with them.

I shipped a package, marked FRAGILE in big neon colored labels on the box. I insured it for the replacement cost - approximately $ 6000.00. It was a microscope, I was sending in the an adjustment that was needed. It was packed extremely securely with several layers of bubble wrap, peanute and strapping tape.

When the postal clerk took the package from me, I actually watched her through it into corner. When it arrived at the microscope service place, some of the interior working parts were broken. What should have been a $ 50.00 adjustment charge turned into $ 700.00.

I put a claim in for the repair. Even though it was insured for $ 6K, my claim was made only for the cost of the repairs. USPS denied the claim, and unlike a commercial insurer, to sue them you have to get permission from Congress, I was told. The reason that they denied the claim was because the microscope repair shop returned it to me, and put a shipping label over the original one. Even though I had proof of paying for the insurance, and proof that it was sent, it meant zilch.

Needless to say, I will not insure equipment items with USPS.

But let''s assume in the case of diamonds that the color grade changed a little, due to the exposure to radiation. Maybe from an H to I or J. Proving it and getting a claim through USPS, would most likely be like banging your head on the wall. In the case above, I talked to all kinds of supervisors, which got me nowhere. The local postmaster here in fact was really rude and discourteous with me about this.

Most likely, most diamonds would not be affected, but why gamble?

I do believe that if you have Chubb Insurance as a consumer ( or maybe even JM ) an overnight shipment would most likely be covered by them. Best to talk to the agent you have, if you are considering shipping something.

Rockdoc

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 10/17/2006 10:37:16 PM
Author: RockDoc
I am not sure what the post office uses, as far as the type and strength of radiation.

The concern I have on the USPS insurance, is that if the package is lost, it is not a problem. But if it is damaged, getting an insurance claim through can be a bit tough with them.

I shipped a package, marked FRAGILE in big neon colored labels on the box. I insured it for the replacement cost - approximately $ 6000.00. It was a microscope, I was sending in the an adjustment that was needed. It was packed extremely securely with several layers of bubble wrap, peanute and strapping tape.

When the postal clerk took the package from me, I actually watched her through it into corner. When it arrived at the microscope service place, some of the interior working parts were broken. What should have been a $ 50.00 adjustment charge turned into $ 700.00.

I put a claim in for the repair. Even though it was insured for $ 6K, my claim was made only for the cost of the repairs. USPS denied the claim, and unlike a commercial insurer, to sue them you have to get permission from Congress, I was told. The reason that they denied the claim was because the microscope repair shop returned it to me, and put a shipping label over the original one. Even though I had proof of paying for the insurance, and proof that it was sent, it meant zilch.

Needless to say, I will not insure equipment items with USPS.

But let''s assume in the case of diamonds that the color grade changed a little, due to the exposure to radiation. Maybe from an H to I or J. Proving it and getting a claim through USPS, would most likely be like banging your head on the wall. In the case above, I talked to all kinds of supervisors, which got me nowhere. The local postmaster here in fact was really rude and discourteous with me about this.

Most likely, most diamonds would not be affected, but why gamble?

I do believe that if you have Chubb Insurance as a consumer ( or maybe even JM ) an overnight shipment would most likely be covered by them. Best to talk to the agent you have, if you are considering shipping something.

Rockdoc

I am sending my oval to Jonathon tomorrow overnight. It will be set in a Leon Mege setting. We have Chubb Insurance. Is there a difference in radiation used for overnight shipping as opposed to regular shipping, registered insured etc?? My stone is a D VS2. It''s a special gift from my husband for our 20th wedding anniversary. Ughhh.

 

[Stone Hunter]

The larger the stone the greater the risk? He did think my stone might be over 8 carats LOL

That was all my fault. Because I''m living in MM land. It''s so much more important than weight.

 

[Stone Hunter]

Is FedEX the same as overnight? Do they use a diffent process? Are our diamonds safe?

Please answer Kaleigh''s question!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 10/17/2006 10:37:16 PM
Author: RockDoc
I am not sure what the post office uses, as far as the type and strength of radiation.

Then how do you know it will damage any diamond?
Do the research and get back to us please.
Its cheap enough to send a 10 pointer back and forth a dozen times and see if you can find any change in it.

Till then kindly stop scaring people.
Thanks

*back to lurking*

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 10/17/2006 11:12:42 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 10/17/2006 10:37:16 PM
Author: RockDoc
I am not sure what the post office uses, as far as the type and strength of radiation.

Then how do you know it will damage any diamond?
Do the research and get back to us please.
Its cheap enough to send a 10 pointer back and forth a dozen times and see if you can find any change in it.

Till then kindly stop scaring people.
Thanks

*back to lurking*

Storm.....

I have no interest in scaring anyone. I have nothing to gain, if someone ships via Fedex, UPS or USPS.

I merely stated my experience with a claim with them.

I do not know that diamonds as a "whole" would or would not be susceptible to change. There are some industry people that have some concerns. Mostly this would affect more colored stones than diamonds, but certain types of diamonds, are being treated by irradiation. We just don''t know fully yet the complete facts.

The point of what I wrote was directed at the differences of making a claim for loss vs. damage with USPS.

That I have personal experience with, and reported what happened.

Rockdoc

 

[RockDoc]

Kaleigh......

I don''t believe that FEDEX and UPS xray packages.

In shipping using them, I have not heard of any problems.

I''ve been told by Chubb agents that shipments are covered by them, but I''d give your agent a quick call to verify it.


Packing Hint for Fedex and UPS.

1. Put the stone in a padded envelope
2. Put the padded envelope with the stone in a small overnight box
3. Make a duplicate copy of the airbill and attach it to the small box. ( This is because IF the outer box gets "chewed up", the airbill on the inner box will get it to the destination without them having to open the box.)
4. Put the small box in a medium size box, and put the airbill on the outside.
5. Tape all seams and corners.

Hope this helps.

Rockdoc

 

[matthewk]

The amount of x-ray or any other radiation needed to alter the color of a diamond in the time that it actually spends passing through the scanner within a usps facility, would also be close to the amount needed to turn every human being within a 2 mile radius into goo. Literally everyone in the building would melt before the color of your stone changed.

Keep in mind these scanners that they have for shipping are much like the scanners at airport check in. They are not irradiating anything other than your imagination and paranoia.

 

[belle]

Date: 10/17/2006 11:12:42 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 10/17/2006 10:37:16 PM
Author: RockDoc
I am not sure what the post office uses, as far as the type and strength of radiation.

Then how do you know it will damage any diamond?
Do the research and get back to us please.
Its cheap enough to send a 10 pointer back and forth a dozen times and see if you can find any change in it.

Till then kindly stop scaring people.
Thanks

*back to lurking*

seriously.
you could have relayed your claim experience without scaring everyone with the coloring changing of diamonds story.
we have enough to worry about when shipping diamonds already.

 

[mrssalvo]

Date: 10/18/2006 12:25:20 PM
Author: belle

Date: 10/17/2006 11:12:42 PM

Author: strmrdr

Date: 10/17/2006 10:37:16 PM

Author: RockDoc

I am not sure what the post office uses, as far as the type and strength of radiation.

Then how do you know it will damage any diamond?

Do the research and get back to us please.

Its cheap enough to send a 10 pointer back and forth a dozen times and see if you can find any change in it.


Till then kindly stop scaring people.

Thanks


*back to lurking*

seriously.

you could have relayed your claim experience without scaring everyone with the coloring changing of diamonds story.

we have enough to worry about when shipping diamonds already.

I agree and as I stated above there are some vendors who do not allow diamonds to be shipped any other way so what are all those people supposed to do?

 

[:)]

Okay, this from USPS...

"Question
Is mail X-rayed?

Answer
Some of the mail that is sent through the United States Postal Service® will pass through an X-Ray machine. There are no specific guidelines as to what may or may not be x-rayed, though mail sent to or through larger cities is likely to pass through an X-Ray machine.

Note: Marking a mailpiece "Do Not X-Ray" will not forgo the X-Raying of a mail piece, and may result in the item being considered suspicious"

However, this 2001 study may make you feel better (at least about diamonds)...

http://www.gia.edu/gemsandgemology/620/76/this_weeks_news_details.cfm

Unfortunately it does make me concerned about sapphires.

(ETA: b/c I do not know if sapphires are one of the ones mentioned that can turn back to the previous color)

 

[RockDoc]

Interesting article from GIA.

It is a little out of date however 5 years old. Not sure if GIA has continued it''s research into this, and the sampling I think was rather small.

There is radiation activity going on, that has been recent. There are only certain types of diamonds that potentially have a possible affect.... This has to do with what type the diamond is ( ia, ib etc). Stones that are salted into diamond parcels, that have been subjected to HPHT, the risk I believe is greater, as some people are irradiating stones after the treatment which can potentially mask detection.

We DO NOT know all the details of this yet. I do know it is going on.

It is not my intent to scare people from using USPS, as only a small percentage of diamonds, if any might be affected.

I just choose to go with a "no risk" situation than a potential one- regardless of how small it is. Insurance coverage that is less cumbersome to make a claim on I think is really the issue.

Rockdoc

 

[:)]

Well, usually I worry about the date on a study if something has changed between the time a study was done and the time I am looking for info. As I doubt that the molecular structure of gemstones have changed in the past 5 years, are you claiming that the postal service has changed the radiation procedure since this study was done? Mind you they already mention the changes made for anthrax were the impetus for the study - have you identified another change in their procedure since the changes made for anthrax?

I think most of the posters on this board are mostly concerned with colorless diamonds as opposed to already irradiated diamonds. I am not so worried about the sampling size of the study given the molecular structure of stones is a constant. I worry more about sample size in studies done on something like people where they are so many other variables like other diseases, etc that can come into play and affect results. The article mentions that GIA was continuing research, however going through their archives I could not find another article. Perhaps someone in the business has access to a database of articles that could be searched.

Also, you mention that you prefer to be ''no risk'' with your shipping. Perhaps you have a business that allows you to ship usps or fed ex, but regular consumers have to ship usps and do not have a choice, at least I did not for the amount that I was shipping.

 

[RockDoc]

Relevant to shipping choices- it depends on where and who you are sending it to.

For someone shipping a stone here or probably to any other appraiser or seller such as GOG etc, they could get the insurance coverage, generate an airbill, and just bill you their charge for it.


There are some folks that insist that consumers ship USPS because consumers can''t buy the insurance we can get, and it is reasonably safe when there is a loss.

I might add though that the insurers have certain packing guidelines ( like I listed above) that they require ( double boxed etc).
If someone you''re sending it to, requires registered mail, then that is the only choice. But if some ask, about UPS or FEDEX with the seller getting the insurance and airbill, that is a possibly good alternative.

Rockdoc

 

[pricescope]

style="WIDTH: 96.99%; HEIGHT: 216px">Date: 10/17/2006 5:56:38 PM
Author: ccv90

Having spent part of my working career involved with radiation in the Nuclear industry, I can assure you that the amount radiation that your diamond receives from an x-ray machine is FAR from the amount needed to turn it different color.

Even if the machine was out of calibration and emitted more radiation than necessary (which it can''t) your stone is safe.

Thank you.
For those who still worry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin-foil_hat you can wrap your precious in tin foil.

 

[DiamondExpert]

The chance that your parcel/package will be irradiated by USPS by anything other than standard X-ray machines (like those used in airports) is ZERO.

Immediately following the 911 anthrax appearance in the Washington DC area, the Fed. Govt started irradiating mail with massively powerful electron beam machines used in food irradiation...this "fried" many things, but had little effect on the anthrax spores (a fact probably known by most leading microbiologists, but a question apparently not asked...my conjecture). Discontinuation of this approach quickly followed.

Here, for your edification and night-time reading is one of those infinitly boring gov't documents, which is the latest I could find (almost everything else is from the 12 mo. period immediately following 911, and not of import)

http://www.gsa.gov/gsa/cm_attachments/GSA_DOCUMENT/National%20Guidelines%20Final%2012-03_R2M-y2-t_0Z5RDZ-i34K-pR.doc

I, of course, did not read it all, but it is clear that only suspicious mail bound for Fed. agencies will be subjected to x-ray in the initial investigation. Also, what I found of interest is that throughout this whole anthrax scare the gov't is apparently only concerned with mail going to Fed. agencies and NOT with the general public!

The old GIA study, as best I can make out, was with the e-beam machines (one blast apparently equal to 230,000,000 chest x-rays!!!), so that also doesn't apply.

I'm sure others will come up with more info, but I can't find the time right now....enjoy, and don't lose sleep over shipping your diamonds!