UPDATE to previous post (GIA Cert included) -- opinions requested (please)

[about2begin]

Hi gang. Here's the link to the previous thread: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/experts-opinions-needed-about-to-wire-15k-ouch.109903/

I have the GIA cert to attach now. If you could take a look at it and let me know if it raises any concerns that would be massively appreciated. I have the stone "purchased" pending the small detail of having to wire $14,200 to bluenile. I want to be sure this is worth a look (of course it could be returned within 30 days but I'd rather not waste time and money if it could be avoided)

Stats on the stone:

Stats:

GIA: cut = ex, ex, ex
HCA = .8 (within AGS and GIA ideal/ex ranges, respectively)
2.05 ct
SI2 (eyeclean -- allegedly--just assume this is true b/c if it isn't I'm sending it back)
H

table: 57%
Depth: 60.9%
crown: 34.5
pavillion: 40.6
8.14*8.21*4.98
Girdle: med to slightly thick



THANKS SO MUCH!!!

 

[Lorelei]

All looks in order, just check as there is a grade setting cloud with SI2 clarity that this isn''t causing a loss of brilliance with the diamond. If not then you should be good to go, then see if it is eyeclean to your standards when you see it.

 

[about2begin]

Date: 3/15/2009 1:02:59 PM
Author: Lorelei
All looks in order, just check as there is a grade setting cloud with SI2 clarity that this isn't causing a loss of brilliance with the diamond. If not then you should be good to go, then see if it is eyeclean to your standards when you see it.

Yeah, that confused me some. I can't see the cloud on the plot so I was wondering where it is and how it might affect the light performance of the stone.

What should I look for when I view the diamond in person and might not have a stone to use as a comparator?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi about2begin,
The way I see it there''s a trade off.
Maybe BN has the lowest price, but in return for that they have no idea what the diamond looks like, therefore neither will you.
Sometimes a plot looks like a child''s finger painting session, and the diamond turns out to be eye clean, other times the plot looks perfectly clean, yet there''s a spot you can see.

 

[about2begin]

Date: 3/15/2009 1:27:21 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Hi about2begin,

The way I see it there's a trade off.

Maybe BN has the lowest price, but in return for that they have no idea what the diamond looks like, therefore neither will you.

Sometimes a plot looks like a child's finger painting session, and the diamond turns out to be eye clean, other times the plot looks perfectly clean, yet there's a spot you can see.

I totally agree with you. They checked the stone (or had someone check it, I'm sure) and said it is eyeclean. Beyond that, I don't know what else I could really hope for aside from a visual inspection which I'll have to do on my own. I don't see that being too far off from other vendors on here. The stone is priced $5000 less than a SI2, H, 2.02 on GOG -- maybe that stone is a slightly better performer than this one, maybe not. I doubt it would be worth $5000 more if this stone is indeed eyeclean to my standards and is cut to AGS/GIA ideal/ex standards, no?

Essentially, my buying process was as follows:

(1) shopped locally but couldn't find anything within my specs for a reasoable price
(2) ruled out WF ACA's due to cost ($23k for a similar stone) and my inability to separate an ACA from a nonbranded ideal in person. WF was very nice and helpful -- it just didn't make sense to me spending $9,000 more on a superideal
(3) ruled out GOG but only after taking time to search jamesallen and bluenile for a stone that hell into the AGS0/gia ex range on the HCA that was confirmed to be eyeclean
(4) went with bluenile b/c of the price -- jamesallen had an I with a "prongable" inclusion for the same price. They were great throughout the process, though. I'd recommend them to anyone.

 

[Lorelei]

Some vendors charge more than a drop shipper as they offer more in the way of services such as buy back, upgrade policies and much more info on the diamond etc. SI2 are not created equal, especially in larger diamonds, some may be eyeclean and others not so there can be various reasons for price differences.

What I would do, when the diamond arrives and assuming you like it and it is eyeclean to your standards ( check it out in as many different lights as you can), is to get an independant appraisal, they can check out the cloud and evaluate all aspects of your diamond. That would give you peace of mind and BN do have a 30 day return policy, so you have plenty of time to arrange this.

Here is a tool you can use to find an appraiser in your area.

https://www.pricescope.com/appr_list.aspx

 

[about2begin]

Date: 3/15/2009 1:45:24 PM
Author: Lorelei
Some vendors charge more than a drop shipper as they offer more in the way of services such as buy back, upgrade policies and much more info on the diamond etc. SI2 are not created equal, especially in larger diamonds, some may be eyeclean and others not so there can be various reasons for price differences.


What I would do, when the diamond arrives and assuming you like it and it is eyeclean to your standards ( check it out in as many different lights as you can), is to get an independant appraisal. That would give you peace of mind and BN do have a 30 day return policy, so you have plenty of time to arrange this.


Here is a tool you can use to find an appraiser in your area.


https://www.pricescope.com/appr_list.aspx

Of course, L. I understand that they offer more than BN does, and for some people that''s probably worth a lot. I don''t think that an upgrade/buy back will be something I''d ever take advantage of (I hope re buyback, ha). I''ll take the stone to Dave Atlas and get his opinion on the stone -- I''ll also try to post pics on here but I''m no photog...

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/15/2009 1:48:06 PM
Author: about2begin

Date: 3/15/2009 1:45:24 PM
Author: Lorelei
Some vendors charge more than a drop shipper as they offer more in the way of services such as buy back, upgrade policies and much more info on the diamond etc. SI2 are not created equal, especially in larger diamonds, some may be eyeclean and others not so there can be various reasons for price differences.


What I would do, when the diamond arrives and assuming you like it and it is eyeclean to your standards ( check it out in as many different lights as you can), is to get an independant appraisal. That would give you peace of mind and BN do have a 30 day return policy, so you have plenty of time to arrange this.


Here is a tool you can use to find an appraiser in your area.


http://www.pricescope.com/appr_list.aspx

Of course, L. I understand that they offer more than BN does, and for some people that''s probably worth a lot. I don''t think that an upgrade/buy back will be something I''d ever take advantage of (I hope re buyback, ha). I''ll take the stone to Dave Atlas and get his opinion on the stone -- I''ll also try to post pics on here but I''m no photog...

You will be in excellent hands with Dave - so you have got all your bases well and truly covered! We would love some pics when you are able if the diamond checks out ( which I am sure it will!) - here are a few tips on diamond photography!

Use macro mode on the camera ( flower icon) and don''t use the flash. Keep the camera and diamond as steady as possible and try shooting outside with the sun behind the diamond. It takes practise but keep trying!

 

[Rhino]

Hi about2begin,

Just following your logic here.

Not sure if you are aware but folks like me have access to the cheapest and also the most expensive. Ie. A vendor like myself could easily broker you 2ct H SI2 for 15k and not only save you $$$ in shipping and appraisal fees but other potential unforeseen headaches. Vendors like myself and others have access to many of the same diamonds you see listed online. Even at BN you will find 2ct H SI2's ranging from 15k up to about 18k. What is it that seprates the 15k one from the 18k? There are a plethora of reasons and I see one HUGE hint on the GIA report. I've been doing this for 28 years and if there is one thing I have learned, not only owning a store but also operating a full equipped gemological laboratory is there is generally always a good gemological reason(s) why a diamond is priced the way it is. 99.9% of the time *you get* what you pay for.

Some of those questions we answer and demonstrate would include but not limited to ...

Are there surface breaking inclusions that are open?
Was the color liberally graded?
Are there issues of irregularity in the crystal growth which impact the transparency?
Graining issues?
Graining combined with fluorescence that impact the transparency in certain (and important) lighting environments?

Some of the above? All of the above?

And many others.

When I am spending my own capital, *peace of mind* is the most important element to me and is why I have made the investments I have to provide those answers to those we serve. I find that the cheapest products on the market come at a price. You can pay for shipping back and forth of many cheap diamonds to learn the answers why they are priced what they are but when you calculate the costs of shipping back and forth, the value offered by vendors who provide the real answers *why* can in the end wind up saving you more money and heartache that you realize. I've seen perfectly cut diamonds with some of the issues above that I would not sell with a clear conscience and if so the client walked into that decision knowing why the diamond was priced as it was. Have you bothered to ask bn why some of their 2ct H SI2's are thousands more than this one?

Good luck.

 

[about2begin]

Date: 3/15/2009 7:20:15 PM
Author: Rhino
Hi about2begin,


Just following your logic here.


Not sure if you are aware but folks like me have access to the cheapest and also the most expensive. Ie. A vendor like myself could easily broker you 2ct H SI2 for 15k and not only save you $$$ in shipping and appraisal fees but other potential unforeseen headaches. Vendors like myself and others have access to many of the same diamonds you see listed online. Even at BN you will find 2ct H SI2's ranging from 15k up to about 18k. What is it that seprates the 15k one from the 18k? There are a plethora of reasons and I see one HUGE hint on the GIA report. I've been doing this for 28 years and if there is one thing I have learned, not only owning a store but also operating a full equipped gemological laboratory is there is generally always a good gemological reason(s) why a diamond is priced the way it is. 99.9% of the time *you get* what you pay for.


Some of those questions we answer and demonstrate would include but not limited to ...


Are there surface breaking inclusions that are open?

Was the color liberally graded?

Are there issues of irregularity in the crystal growth which impact the transparency?

Graining issues?

Graining combined with fluorescence that impact the transparency in certain (and important) lighting environments?


Some of the above? All of the above?


And many others.


When I am spending my own capital, *peace of mind* is the most important element to me and is why I have made the investments I have to provide those answers to those we serve. I find that the cheapest products on the market come at a price. You can pay for shipping back and forth of many cheap diamonds to learn the answers why they are priced what they are but when you calculate the costs of shipping back and forth, the value offered by vendors who provide the real answers *why* can in the end wind up saving you more money and heartache that you see on the surface.


Good luck.

Rhino:

I'd be more than happy to buy the stone from you or another vendor; I have no desire to use BN over any other seller. I simply looked at the inventory you had listed (and the other vendors people recommend here) and didn't see anything comparable (price included).

Do you care to fill me in on the "HUGE" hint that is on the GIA report? If it's a HUGE enough problem then I'd love to avoid buying the stone. Based on the angles and percentages, the stone seems like it will be a solid performer.

I didn't mean to rag on your company at all. Sorry if it came across that way. I just based my buying decision on my inability to tell the difference b/w "H&A/superideal/ACA" and an ideal (HCA < 2). A stone on your site seemed like it was priced at around $5000 more. If it's worth that money, I'd consider spending it.

My logic was really this: I need a great diamond, but it isn't worth paying for the best diamond because I can't differentiate between the two. I'm basically looking for the Audi A4 of eyeclean, H color, 2 ct, RBs -- not the Rolls Royce.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/15/2009 7:35:14 PM
Author: about2begin

Rhino:

I'd be more than happy to buy the stone from you or another vendor; I have no desire to use BN over any other seller. I simply looked at the inventory you had listed (and the other vendors people recommend here) and didn't see anything comparable (price included).

I realize. To date we have only really listed diamonds that are physically in our inventory. Only recently we started listing inventory from a couple of of some of our more reliable resources for H&A's that I can have in my possession in 24 hours. I will not sell a diamond that I can't physically inspect a2b. It's a matter of conscience with me personally because of the magnitude of this once in a lifetime purchase for many. We will be (Lord willing in the near future) be featuring inventory I have access to that is not physically here (a virtual inventory) that I can physically inspect which includes most of the diamonds you see featured online. Hence when you went to my site you were more than likely unaware that I had access to most of what you see online.

Do you care to fill me in on the 'HUGE' hint that is on the GIA report? If it's a HUGE enough problem then I'd love to avoid buying the stone. Based on the angles and percentages, the stone seems like it will be a solid performer.

The HUGE indicator to me was the surface graining issue. The first question raised in my mind (considering the price) is 1. Does this surface graining present transparency issues, particularly when the diamond is observed in a spot lighting environment? For that price this could certainly be the factor. Then there are other factors we take into account. There are no less than 29 steps we take before we will put our seal of approval on a diamond. I currently have a G SI1 here that I will not sell because it has graining that impacts the transparency and only in certain lighting. This diamond is also a Hearts & Arrows diamond with a GREAT HCA score. This may or may not be the case with the diamond you are looking at but I am certainly skeptical.

I didn't mean to rag on your company at all. Sorry if it came across that way. I just based my buying decision on my inability to tell the difference b/w 'H&A/superideal/ACA' and an ideal (HCA quote]
I currently have two 1.5xct F VS2's on my website that are thousands difference in price. I also agree that there are non H&A's that can look as good as H&A's. I don't take it as a rag at all a2b. You are judging based on the information you have *seen*. Many are unaware of the many factors that go into determiing value beyond a GIA Report or even an HCA score.

Diamond value can also be affected for a number of other reasons.

Optical symmetry.
The color graduating to something other than yellow (like brown or gray for example).
Surface graining.
Internal graining.
Low end of its clarity grade.

The list goes on.

In many instances I've seen multiple reasons in one single diamond.

I see a good video program on the horizon.

 

[about2begin]

Date: 3/15/2009 7:52:57 PM
Author: Rhino

Date: 3/15/2009 7:35:14 PM

Author: about2begin


Rhino:


I''d be more than happy to buy the stone from you or another vendor; I have no desire to use BN over any other seller. I simply looked at the inventory you had listed (and the other vendors people recommend here) and didn''t see anything comparable (price included).

I realize. To date we have only really listed diamonds that are physically in our inventory. Only recently we started listing inventory from a couple of of some of our more reliable resources for H&A''s that I can have in my possession in 24 hours. I will not sell a diamond that I can''t physically inspect a2b. It''s a matter of conscience with me personally because of the magnitude of this once in a lifetime purchase for many. We will be (Lord willing in the near future) be featuring inventory I have access to that is not physically here (a virtual inventory) that I can physically inspect which includes most of the diamonds you see featured online. Hence when you went to my site you were more than likely unaware that I had access to most of what you see online.

Do you care to fill me in on the ''HUGE'' hint that is on the GIA report? If it''s a HUGE enough problem then I''d love to avoid buying the stone. Based on the angles and percentages, the stone seems like it will be a solid performer.

The HUGE indicator to me was the surface graining issue. The first question raised in my mind (considering the price) is 1. Does this surface graining present transparency issues, particularly when the diamond is observed in a spot lighting environment? For that price this could certainly be the factor. Then there are other factors we take into account. There are no less than 29 steps we take before we will put our seal of approval on a diamond. I currently have a G SI1 here that I will not sell because it has graining that impacts the transparency and only in certain lighting. This diamond is also a Hearts & Arrows diamond with a GREAT HCA score. This may or may not be the case with the diamond you are looking at but I am certainly skeptical.

I didn''t mean to rag on your company at all. Sorry if it came across that way. I just based my buying decision on my inability to tell the difference b/w ''H&A/superideal/ACA'' and an ideal (HCA < 2). A stone on your site seemed like it was priced at around $5000 more. If it''s worth that money, I''d consider spending it.

I currently have two 1.5xct F VS2''s on my website that are thousands difference in price. I also agree that there are non H&A''s that can look as good as H&A''s. I don''t take it as a rag at all a2b. You are judging based on the information you have *seen*. Many are unaware of the many factors that go into determiing value beyond a GIA Report or even an HCA score.


Diamond value can also be affected for a number of other reasons.


Optical symmetry.

The color graduating to something other than yellow (like brown or gray for example).

Surface graining.

Internal graining.

Graining combined with notable internal strain (a discount on the wholesale level that can pass onto the retail level due to risk).


The list goes on. In many instances I''ve seen multiple reasons in one single diamond.


I see a good video program on the horizon.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this.

Do you know when you''ll have the ability to inspect stones and have them listed on your website? Could you bring in this particular stone right now (well assuming it was released by BN)?

I asked BN about why some prices are higher or lower for the same type of stone. They said something about their price being dependent on the deal they get from the cutter. I feel like this whole process is shrouded with misinformation and deceptive tactics. I don''t really know what to believe, you know. I don''t trust myself and my ability to examine the stone in every possible lighting scenario before the return period expires.

Basically, the more I learn, the more I feel like I am clueless. I just want a great diamond, not the best, just a beautiful stone. I felt like this stone had a lot of potential but now I''m unsure about wiring this money tomorrow morning.

 

[Rhino]

Date: 3/15/2009 8:08:04 PM
Author: about2begin

Thanks for taking the time to explain this.

No prob.

Do you know when you'll have the ability to inspect stones and have them listed on your website? Could you bring in this particular stone right now (well assuming it was released by BN)?

I only acquire upon request which must be done via our site.

I asked BN about why some prices are higher or lower for the same type of stone. They said something about their price being dependent on the deal they get from the cutter.

Yep, which is dependant upon some of the factors I have listed.

I feel like this whole process is shrouded with misinformation and deceptive tactics. I don't really know what to believe, you know. I don't trust myself and my ability to examine the stone in every possible lighting scenario before the return period expires.

It's not like anyone is really trying to deceive you a2b including BN. Yes there is a lot of mystery, but with the right education and proper tools ... It's about acquiring the facts and ideally before serious $$$ is laid out. You happen to be talking to an information junkie and one who is all about sharing the facts and showing why things are valued the way they are. Understand there is the chance that it may be perfectly fine and it is a great deal. I just don't like entering these decisions without the knowledge of understanding *why*. Not too long ago we acquired a budget diamond for a client ... a 2ct Cushion that was priced ridiculously lower than others. Its optics happened to be great but the diamond had surface reaching inclusions that were open. I communicated that I would not back this diamond with lifetime policies but would gladly match or beat the lowest advertised price. The client did purchase, except they had a full knowledge (with photomicrographs) demonstrating why the diamond was valued as it was. To me it's the *knowing* part that is most meaningful. If I'm getting a diamond so cheap ... why? If I am paying more ... why? And of course ... is it really worth it? I'm in this for the long haul so I tend to think future too.

Basically, the more I learn, the more I feel like I am clueless. I just want a great diamond, not the best, just a beautiful stone. I felt like this stone had a lot of potential but now I'm unsure about wiring this money tomorrow morning.

Dave Atlas or Chris DiCamillo (gemappraisers.com) are very good appraisers. Each appraiser has their own steps they take in determining what they will give a thumbs up to or not. I can only answer for my own lab. The issues that make it the value it is may be perfectly fine for you or it may not. If so, you'll be a happy camper and life will go on. If not ... well then there are guys like me that help people like you walk into this with a much greater peace of mind.

No matter which path you take, I just wanted you to know that the least expensive diamonds are not limited to certain vendors. It's just that some of us reveal a lot more of the facts before you take that plunge.

Peace,

 

[about2begin]

Also, are those concerns something that AGA (Dave Atlas) would look at? Could I trust that a stone would undergo testing in different lighting situations? I suppose I can call him tomorrow to ask if he doesn''t have time to reply.

 

[about2begin]

Thanks again. I didn't mean to imply that I'm being deceived, I just feel like there's not a ton of transparency to this whole process. At least not as far as the avg Joe can see.

I really would prefer to avoid BN simply because of the fact that they refuse to take photos of the stone or provide a detailed inspection prior to purchase. I knew WF had the ability to pull certain diamonds in but I didn't see this stone come up on their search.

I would really (REALLY) prefer a vendor to call in a stone and look at the thing before selling it. If this could happen for the same price, I'd be all about it. Is this something that's possible?

Maybe I'm getting into an area that isn't best to discuss on the board (actual sales). Honestly, I don't feel like I owe anything to BN at this point because they refused to provide me with information that I requested. I'd much prefer a stone to undergo inspection prior to being sold.

If you offer this service and could bring this stone in, what are the next steps to take?

 

[about2begin]

Just to follow up a bit. I did some research on surface graining and found a post from John Pollard (see below) -- is what he says here accurate? Or, does unshown graining commonly affect performance?

"Surface Graining is structural irregularity. You can see it with a microscope. The graining may resemble faint facet junction lines, or cause a grooved or wavy surface. They look like polishing lines, but they often cross facet junctions where polishing lines don''t. It is a natural characteristic of the diamond crystal, and not a reflection of the cut quality.

Many times a grading report will list surface graining, pinpoints, additional clouds, etc. as ''not shown.'' The report is just noting that these things exist for sake of thoroughness. ''Not shown'' means they are non-issues."

THREAD HERE