Unscrupulous?! Scandalous?! Status Quo?!

[Maisie]

I don't think PS is acting like an 'informal trial/judge/jury'. I think we just expect a vendor - who has been very happy in the past to receive positive recommendations from PS'ers - to step up and be accountable for not so positive aspects of their business practices.

 

[Indylady]

I just called in, and spoke with Michael the president of NSC. I didn''t want to come to any judgments before having the chance to speak to a rep at the NSC, and he basically told me this:

The stones are in fact identical, and you won''t be able to tell the difference between them, even under a scope and through scanned images, so there is nothing problematic in photographing only one gem of the pair because they are identical.

He then told me that he didn''t have the time to go and "put out every fire on Pricescope" that I was "nuisance" that he is "trying to run a business" and ended it with "I don''t want to talk to you anymore". He was rude from the moment he answered the phone; I embarrassed to say that I''ve ever recommended the NSC, and I felt it was necessary to hear their side of it before I made any judgments. Regardless of whether they intended to continue their practices or not, there was no reason for the SA to be so unkind.

 

[LD]

Date: 3/3/2010 4:59:09 PM
Author: IndyLady
I just called in, and spoke with Michael the president of NSC. I didn't want to come to any judgments before having the chance to speak to a rep at the NSC, and he basically told me this:

The stones are in fact identical, and you won't be able to tell the difference between them, even under a scope and through scanned images, so there is nothing problematic in photographing only one gem of the pair because they are identical.

He then told me that he didn't have the time to go and 'put out every fire on Pricescope' that I was 'nuisance' that he is 'trying to run a business' and ended it with 'I don't want to talk to you anymore'. He was rude from the moment he answered the phone; I embarrassed to say that I've ever recommended the NSC, and I felt it was necessary to hear their side of it before I made any judgments. Regardless of whether they intended to continue their practices or not, there was no reason for the SA to be so unkind.

Disgraceful. This is a good reason why NOT to buy from NSC. They've never had a good reputation (despite a shoddy attempt at schill posting on here a few months ago) and this just closes the door for me.

A pair of stones are NEVER identical (unless they are the same ones as per your photographs) and if Michael thinks so then he clearly is either (a) in the wrong business or (b) needs glasses.

So yes, Michael, I agree that the gems in the first photo are identical - because they're the same one - but are you truly trying to tell us that the stones in the second photo are identical? I guess they were before photoshopping!

 

[Maisie]

Date: 3/3/2010 4:59:09 PM
Author: IndyLady
I just called in, and spoke with Michael the president of NSC. I didn''t want to come to any judgments before having the chance to speak to a rep at the NSC, and he basically told me this:

The stones are in fact identical, and you won''t be able to tell the difference between them, even under a scope and through scanned images, so there is nothing problematic in photographing only one gem of the pair because they are identical.

He then told me that he didn''t have the time to go and ''put out every fire on Pricescope'' that I was ''nuisance'' that he is ''trying to run a business'' and ended it with ''I don''t want to talk to you anymore''. He was rude from the moment he answered the phone; I embarrassed to say that I''ve ever recommended the NSC, and I felt it was necessary to hear their side of it before I made any judgments. Regardless of whether they intended to continue their practices or not, there was no reason for the SA to be so unkind.

Wow. That wasn''t very nice or professional. (((hugs)))

 

[RockHugger]

To the pee on the leg comment, I was thinking it. But I was trying my best (after having someone lie to my face over and over) to be professional and respectful.

I think NCS needs to rethink its business practices and customer service, expecially in this economic time.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/3/2010 4:59:09 PM
Author: IndyLady
I just called in, and spoke with Michael the president of NSC. I didn''t want to come to any judgments before having the chance to speak to a rep at the NSC, and he basically told me this:

The stones are in fact identical, and you won''t be able to tell the difference between them, even under a scope and through scanned images, so there is nothing problematic in photographing only one gem of the pair because they are identical.

He then told me that he didn''t have the time to go and ''put out every fire on Pricescope'' that I was ''nuisance'' that he is ''trying to run a business'' and ended it with ''I don''t want to talk to you anymore''. He was rude from the moment he answered the phone; I embarrassed to say that I''ve ever recommended the NSC, and I felt it was necessary to hear their side of it before I made any judgments. Regardless of whether they intended to continue their practices or not, there was no reason for the SA to be so unkind.

We''re probably "harassing" him a bit much judging from the emails being sent, so I can see why he''s annoyed.

But honestly, I''m not surprised. I had a feeling about him ever since that thread I pointed out. He came across as dodgy to me, and I have decent dodgy radar.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/3/2010 4:59:09 PM
Author: IndyLady
I just called in, and spoke with Michael the president of NSC. I didn''t want to come to any judgments before having the chance to speak to a rep at the NSC, and he basically told me this:

The stones are in fact identical, and you won''t be able to tell the difference between them, even under a scope and through scanned images, so there is nothing problematic in photographing only one gem of the pair because they are identical.

He then told me that he didn''t have the time to go and ''put out every fire on Pricescope'' that I was ''nuisance'' that he is ''trying to run a business'' and ended it with ''I don''t want to talk to you anymore''. He was rude from the moment he answered the phone; I embarrassed to say that I''ve ever recommended the NSC, and I felt it was necessary to hear their side of it before I made any judgments. Regardless of whether they intended to continue their practices or not, there was no reason for the SA to be so unkind.

Oh, and of course there is nothing problematic in doing that....for an unscrupulous, lazy, deceitful, dollar bottom-line kind of person.

 

[vinkalmann]

Date: 3/3/2010 4:59:09 PM
Author: IndyLady
I just called in, and spoke with Michael the president of NSC. I didn't want to come to any judgments before having the chance to speak to a rep at the NSC, and he basically told me this:


The stones are in fact identical, and you won't be able to tell the difference between them, even under a scope and through scanned images, so there is nothing problematic in photographing only one gem of the pair because they are identical.


He then told me that he didn't have the time to go and 'put out every fire on Pricescope' that I was 'nuisance' that he is 'trying to run a business' and ended it with 'I don't want to talk to you anymore'. He was rude from the moment he answered the phone; I embarrassed to say that I've ever recommended the NSC, and I felt it was necessary to hear their side of it before I made any judgments. Regardless of whether they intended to continue their practices or not, there was no reason for the SA to be so unkind.

That's the thing though, the stones AREN'T exactly identical. I know I wan't expecting what I purchased to be identical. If I wanted a pair of earrings to be identical I would have gotten something synthetic. I wanted something natural and inherently they will have their differences, that's kind of the point, right?

I don't see there being a lot of "fires" to put out here, more often than not it's praise.

 

[E B]

Excuses, excuses, excuses. Why would they rotate/alter the images if they weren't trying to fool the buyer into believing they were two different stones?

Looks like Michael's pissed because his company was caught and called out on a large and very active diamond/jewelry forum. Being rude to customers calling to seek answers? Another BAD move.

 

[LD]

Are there any consumer laws in the US that prevent this type of fraud?

 

[Arcadian]

BBB.org is where businesses can be reported by consumers directly affected by unfair/shady business practices.

FTC.GOV is where you can find a lot of information about consumer protections.


-A

 

[vinkalmann]

Date: 3/3/2010 5:19:04 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Are there any consumer laws in the US that prevent this type of fraud?

I don''t know that I would classify this as fraud necessarily. The purchaser gets the final say in whether he or she makes the purchase after the evaluation period. If he or she isn''t into the stones, they get sent back and nobody''s worse off.

 

[Indylady]

Date: 3/3/2010 5:02:51 PM
Author: Maisie

Date: 3/3/2010 4:59:09 PM

Author: IndyLady

I just called in, and spoke with Michael the president of NSC. I didn''t want to come to any judgments before having the chance to speak to a rep at the NSC, and he basically told me this:


The stones are in fact identical, and you won''t be able to tell the difference between them, even under a scope and through scanned images, so there is nothing problematic in photographing only one gem of the pair because they are identical.


He then told me that he didn''t have the time to go and ''put out every fire on Pricescope'' that I was ''nuisance'' that he is ''trying to run a business'' and ended it with ''I don''t want to talk to you anymore''. He was rude from the moment he answered the phone; I embarrassed to say that I''ve ever recommended the NSC, and I felt it was necessary to hear their side of it before I made any judgments. Regardless of whether they intended to continue their practices or not, there was no reason for the SA to be so unkind.

Wow. That wasn''t very nice or professional. (((hugs)))

Thanks Maisie! I felt like this emotie

after talking to him. I think that''s the closest I''ve felt to being "yelled at" as an adult.

 

[Maisie]

Date: 3/3/2010 5:38:53 PM
Author: IndyLady

Date: 3/3/2010 5:02:51 PM
Author: Maisie


Wow. That wasn''t very nice or professional. (((hugs)))

Thanks Maisie! I felt like this emotie

after talking to him. I think that''s the closest I''ve felt to being ''yelled at'' as an adult.

Aww bless you. I would have felt the same. I hate being told off.

 

[Gailey]

I thought it might be fun to do a little bit of vendor comparison. Here''s a picture of a pair of sapphire baguettes from the e-bay seller Gemburionline. There is another thread about this company on CS at the moment, which prompted me to look. I encourage everyone that reads this post to click on my link because not only will you find the details of the stones, you will also see a video of the two stones - similar in composition to the videos I used to see from NSC.

As far as the image goes, I did the same thing, downloaded it, looked at it with Windows Photo Viewer and I magnified the image. As far as I can tell these look like two different stones. I couldn''t find a single duplicated area. How difficult can it be?

Oh, in case anyone is wondering I haven''t bought anything from either company.

 

[Gailey]

Date: 3/3/2010 4:54:30 PM
Author: Maisie
I don''t think PS is acting like an ''informal trial/judge/jury''. I think we just expect a vendor - who has been very happy in the past to receive positive recommendations from PS''ers - to step up and be accountable for not so positive aspects of their business practices.

Another lady with a staggering amoung of common sense. Well said Maisie!

Indy, I am sorry they were rude to you at NSC. It does you credit that you wanted to hear their side of things before making a post.

I guess we can expect the schillers back any time now.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/3/2010 5:38:31 PM
Author: vinkalmann

Date: 3/3/2010 5:19:04 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Are there any consumer laws in the US that prevent this type of fraud?

I don''t know that I would classify this as fraud necessarily. The purchaser gets the final say in whether he or she makes the purchase after the evaluation period. If he or she isn''t into the stones, they get sent back and nobody''s worse off.

I wouldn''t say fraud either...BUT does the customer have to pay the return?

I would say shady, iffy, shonky, dodgy, and a few other choice words.

 

[Arcadian]

Date: 3/3/2010 5:38:31 PM
Author: vinkalmann

Date: 3/3/2010 5:19:04 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Are there any consumer laws in the US that prevent this type of fraud?

I don''t know that I would classify this as fraud necessarily. The purchaser gets the final say in whether he or she makes the purchase after the evaluation period. If he or she isn''t into the stones, they get sent back and nobody''s worse off.

the internet has a lot of gray areas which is very unfortunate.


It would be classed as a misrepresentation, though not outright fraud.

It becomes fraud when money exchanges hands, the customer gets the product(s), finds they''re not represented correctly, and when the customer tries to return it or them, they''re not able to get their money back or get the issue resolved without intervention.

I honestly don''t know how much of a ding a company can get from FTC for misrepresentation of a product, but NSC may want to have a bit of fine print on their site to keep themselves from finding out.




-A

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/3/2010 5:09:47 PM
Author: E B
Excuses, excuses, excuses. Why would they rotate/alter the images if they weren''t trying to fool the buyer into believing they were two different stones?

Looks like Michael''s pissed because his company was caught and called out on a large and very active diamond/jewelry forum. Being rude to customers calling to seek answers? Another BAD move.

Yup. I''m even more inclined to believe that Fox woman on that thread I posted. This man seems into BS and his sense of logic and rationale seem highly skewed.

 

[Indylady]

A pair of stones are NEVER identical (unless they are the same ones as per your photographs) and if Michael thinks so then he clearly is either (a) in the wrong business or (b) needs glasses.

So NSC's matched pairs also have identical inclusions? I have so echo what someone else said earlier in this thread..."LD, stop making sense!"

 

[Gailey]

Date: 3/3/2010 4:41:06 PM
Author: RockHugger

New e-mail from Micheal at NCS. Dont worry about my name being exposed...he didnt get my name right. I agree, his last e-mail seemed a bit..frazzled.
*****************************
Helen can you piece together my correspondence with Kathy here and post it on pricescope.

I fear what precedence this sets, as anyone in the general public will now demand we respond to them on pricescope as it is becoming some informal trial/judge/jury.

In this case I feel very confident in our position and I am glad to make it public, yet I fear about how much time this will take of our working resources.

Please do this during your regular working hours here, but I am asking you not to spend anytime checking the site for more issues after this.

Thank you,

Michael Arnstein

The Natural Sapphire Company

So would the Helen in Michael''s message be the same Helen who introduced herself to us to us a while ago and posted 6 times? I have to say I feel for poor Helen right now.

Hello, PriceScope! I’m Helen, and I''ve just started work at The Natural Sapphire Company. I''ve also been a PS lurker for a good long while (y''all have the best eye-candy), though never a contributor until now. I''m looking forward to changing that, as a representative for NSC.

I’m aware that there’s been some recent concern about NSC''s presence or lack thereof on PriceScope: I hope my being here will assuage that. I''m looking forward to becoming a part of the community - just thought I''d put up an introduction before I started posting!

Helen, The Natural Sapphire Company
http://www.TheNaturalSapphireCompany.com

 

[vinkalmann]

Date: 3/3/2010 5:48:06 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 3/3/2010 5:38:31 PM

Author: vinkalmann

Date: 3/3/2010 5:19:04 PM

Author: LovingDiamonds

Are there any consumer laws in the US that prevent this type of fraud?

I don''t know that I would classify this as fraud necessarily. The purchaser gets the final say in whether he or she makes the purchase after the evaluation period. If he or she isn''t into the stones, they get sent back and nobody''s worse off.

I wouldn''t say fraud either...BUT does the customer have to pay the return?


I would say shady, iffy, shonky, dodgy, and a few other choice words.

Yes, the customer DOES have to pay the return as far as I know. That''s the catch to the not being fraud argument. Note that I''m playing devil''s advocate a little bit here. But on second thought, I don''t know that they would deny a customer that asks for a UPS or FedEx shipping number, I bet they would give one.

 

[Maisie]

Date: 3/3/2010 5:44:55 PM
Author: Gailey
I thought it might be fun to do a little bit of vendor comparison. Here''s a picture of a pair of sapphire baguettes from the e-bay seller Gemburionline. There is another thread about this company on CS at the moment, which prompted me to look. I encourage everyone that reads this post to click on my link because not only will you find the details of the stones, you will also see a video of the two stones - similar in composition to the videos I used to see from NSC.

As far as the image goes, I did the same thing, downloaded it, looked at it with Windows Photo Viewer and I magnified the image. As far as I can tell these look like two different stones. I couldn''t find a single duplicated area. How difficult can it be?

Oh, in case anyone is wondering I haven''t bought anything from either company.

I could stay on that ebay shop all day looking at those pretty stones going round and round! I love seeing videos

 

[rosetta]

oh my.

i was about to make a major purchase from them.

stopped dead in my tracks.

Never to return!

I have bought from 5 PS recommended vendors, but NSC wont be one of them.

 

[Helen@NSC]

Hello, all - this thread has covered a lot of ground, so I''m going to try to stay succinct, and hopefully address the primary concerns.

Online marketing is just hitting its Golden Age now, and its etiquette is still being mapped out.

We present the most information we possibly can: we provide photos from every angle, 3D modeling, wire-mapping for our loose gemstones, video footage, and that’s just our starting point – we offer hand shots, photoshop mock-ups of stones with settings, and CAD renderings on demand. We do every test under the sun, and we provide our customers with all of that information as a matter of course. We''re still doing our best to extend this to every stone on the site, but that''s our goal. As a baseline, that’s ten times what any other company out there has to offer.

Our top priority is quality over efficiency … but we also value efficiency pretty highly. The decision to use mirrored images came out of that: to provide all of the other services that we do, we reallocated some of our resources from one aspect of the business to another.

Pretty much every other company of our size out there uses stock photos as a matter of course. Comparatively speaking, our pieces are individually photographed and listed with a lot of information for the purpose of full disclosure, and the presentation of our pairs for the effect that they will have under normal viewing circumstances was a decision that we didn’t foresee causing this sort of concern. We apologize for any confusion.

We stand behind each and every one of our stones with a no-questions-asked return policy, and we do our best to ensure that our clients are happy. Those of you who have ordered from us and who are posting to this thread – we thank you for your patronage, and your understanding. Those of you who are, ah, less than happy … we’ll be taking that under heavy consideration as we continue to adapt our policies.

P.S. – A good number of the pairs listed in this thread are actually clean of photoshopping (ironically enough PR1025-B is one of them - table-size aside, they really do have very similar cuts), and no, we’ve never engaged in shilling. I’m a big fan of the mea culpa when necessary, and there’d be no point to my defending the practice just to turn around and deny its application. I’m just saying that perhaps you might be willing to consider that after 71 years, we’re adapting to a lot of new technology through a process of trial-and-error. We’re not perfect, but we do everything we can to make our clients happy IRL. I hope you won’t privilege an internet thread where emotions are running high over almost ¾ of a century of good business, and I invite you to check us out for yourselves, one-on-one.

 

[LD]

Date: 3/3/2010 5:51:30 PM
Author: Arcadian

Date: 3/3/2010 5:38:31 PM
Author: vinkalmann

Date: 3/3/2010 5:19:04 PM
Author: LovingDiamonds
Are there any consumer laws in the US that prevent this type of fraud?

I don''t know that I would classify this as fraud necessarily. The purchaser gets the final say in whether he or she makes the purchase after the evaluation period. If he or she isn''t into the stones, they get sent back and nobody''s worse off.

the internet has a lot of gray areas which is very unfortunate.


It would be classed as a misrepresentation, though not outright fraud.

It becomes fraud when money exchanges hands, the customer gets the product(s), finds they''re not represented correctly, and when the customer tries to return it or them, they''re not able to get their money back or get the issue resolved without intervention.

I honestly don''t know how much of a ding a company can get from FTC for misrepresentation of a product, but NSC may want to have a bit of fine print on their site to keep themselves from finding out.




-A

Very interesting read. I have only bought once from NSC and because I''m not in the US I had to pay up front for the gem, shipping etc. (I returned the gem btw)!

So, I''m guessing if I were to purchase a misrepresented "pair" of gemstones, money would change hands and it would be fraudulent? If sold to somebody in the US (on approval?) I don''t know if money changes hands but I guess that would be different?

Whatever we call it though it''s gross misrepresentation!

 

[rosetta]

thanks for the reply Helen.

i''m still pretty concerned, especially after reading about how one PSer was treated on the phone.

I generally need to be 100% confident before I make an online purchase, and I''m just not feeling it right now.

So for the time being: I''m out!

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Date: 3/3/2010 4:59:09 PM
Author: IndyLady
I just called in, and spoke with Michael the president of NSC. I didn't want to come to any judgments before having the chance to speak to a rep at the NSC, and he basically told me this:


The stones are in fact identical, and you won't be able to tell the difference between them, even under a scope and through scanned images, so there is nothing problematic in photographing only one gem of the pair because they are identical.


He then told me that he didn't have the time to go and 'put out every fire on Pricescope' that I was 'nuisance' that he is 'trying to run a business' and ended it with 'I don't want to talk to you anymore'. He was rude from the moment he answered the phone; I embarrassed to say that I've ever recommended the NSC, and I felt it was necessary to hear their side of it before I made any judgments. Regardless of whether they intended to continue their practices or not, there was no reason for the SA to be so unkind.

Wow, that is rude, they seem to care a lot about what people have to say here, as it seems they have been directing a lot of their customers to post testimonials.

I personally prefer to buy from a vendor who shows me EXACTLY what I am buying, if it is a pair, I expect it to be both stones.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 3/3/2010 6:05:36 PM
Author: Helen@NSC
Hello, all - this thread has covered a lot of ground, so I'm going to try to stay succinct, and hopefully address the primary concerns.

Online marketing is just hitting its Golden Age now, and its etiquette is still being mapped out.

We present the most information we possibly can: we provide photos from every angle, 3D modeling, wire-mapping for our loose gemstones, video footage, and that’s just our starting point – we offer hand shots, photoshop mock-ups of stones with settings, and CAD renderings on demand. We do every test under the sun, and we provide our customers with all of that information as a matter of course. We're still doing our best to extend this to every stone on the site, but that's our goal. As a baseline, that’s ten times what any other company out there has to offer.

Our top priority is quality over efficiency … but we also value efficiency pretty highly. The decision to use mirrored images came out of that: to provide all of the other services that we do, we reallocated some of our resources from one aspect of the business to another.

Pretty much every other company of our size out there uses stock photos as a matter of course. Comparatively speaking, our pieces are individually photographed and listed with a lot of information for the purpose of full disclosure, and the presentation of our pairs for the effect that they will have under normal viewing circumstances was a decision that we didn’t foresee causing this sort of concern. We apologize for any confusion.

We stand behind each and every one of our stones with a no-questions-asked return policy, and we do our best to ensure that our clients are happy. Those of you who have ordered from us and who are posting to this thread – we thank you for your patronage, and your understanding. Those of you who are, ah, less than happy … we’ll be taking that under heavy consideration as we continue to adapt our policies.

P.S. – A good number of the pairs listed in this thread are actually clean of photoshopping (ironically enough PR1025-B is one of them - table-size aside, they really do have very similar cuts), and no, we’ve never engaged in shilling. I’m a big fan of the mea culpa when necessary, and there’d be no point to my defending the practice just to turn around and deny its application. I’m just saying that perhaps you might be willing to consider that after 71 years, we’re adapting to a lot of new technology through a process of trial-and-error. We’re not perfect, but we do everything we can to make our clients happy IRL. I hope you won’t privilege an internet thread where emotions are running high over almost ¾ of a century of good business, and I invite you to check us out for yourselves, one-on-one.

Seriously?

Emotions running high? You're kidding me, right? Do you mean because we're passionate about representing a product correctly, that somehow we're being emotional and therefore irrational? Hm.

And in order to offer other services, you decided to spend time to photoshop images and deceive customers? Really? Um, could you just shoot the two stones together?

Helen, no offense, because I know this is your job and you've been prompted to reply (then told to spend no further time on it), but yours is more pretty worded baloney. Other companies actually post pics of their stones. This is what we think should be basic, front line stuff.

And just because a company has been in business for a long time does not always mean it gets better. It sometimes means it hides behind its reputation so it can cut corners and do shonky things. I believe, ehrm, Toyota is going through something like that now?

 

[StonieGrl]

NSC: You can sprinkle all the powdered sugar you have over this ''situation'' and that still won''t make it a donut.

To the NSC Head Rudester: YOUR company came here to shill and cozy up to US, we don''t ''need'' you. We have fantastic stone sources you could not dream of, they cut for QUALITY not carat size first. And by being that rude to one of us, you just lost a nice bit of biz and anyone googling your company prior to a buy will easily be able to see this thread.

Bottom Line: We don''t need YOU but you need clients. Good Luck with that, you''re going to require it!