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UNpolished / Bruted Girdle...Please help

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wistletown

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
51
EDIT************** I just called the Polar Bear company to see if they have more info. on this Canadian stone and the woman I spoke with told me bruted girdles are common with their stones. They do it for 2 main reasons 1) They believe their bruting process is good enough that they do not need to polish it and it's a cost effective decision and 2) The NWT enscription last longer on bruted girdles. She told me the diamond is excellent and it has an internal appraisal grade of 000, whatever that means.

Here's a little background information on the diamond before I begin:

Cut: Round Brillant
Measurements: 8.19X8.21X5.00mm
Carat: 2.01
Color: G
Clarity: VSI
Cut Grade: Very Good
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Flourescence: None
Table: 56%
Depth: 61%
Crown Angle: 34.5 Degrees
Girdle: Thin - Medium
Pavillion Angle: 41 Degrees
Candian Polar Bear gov't certified diamond with NWT number engraved on the girdle.
Also under the table on the GIA certificate is this comment: Cut grade affected by brillanteering

I took this stone to an average appraiser (I wouldnt say they were good). The stone is set in a temporary setting for now. I just wanted an inexpensive appraiser for now to give me a bit of piece of mine the stone is real and all. After it's set in the actual setting I will bring it to a much more reputable appraiser. The appraiser did bring something to my attention. The girdle is unpolished. I've searched for unpolished bruted girdles on this forum and it's mentioned that this is only common with lhigher color grade diamonds such as (J,K) diamonds as well as very small stones.

My question is why would the cutter have chosen to do this with a G 2.0+ carat diamond? The stone is very shiny. All the proportions are good. Cost was $22,800ish. What do I have to worry about with an unfinished girdle? The price WAS a few grand lower than any price I can find for a diamond with similar specs. Did the unpolished girdle call for the lower price?

Please help.
 

Kaleigh

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
29,570
I hope LynnB see''s this. She has a gorgeous 2.36 ( or there abouts) RB that has a bruted girdle. Nothing to worry about as far as durability is concerned that I know of. Why the cutter left it that way?? Who knows? But you seem to love it, and that''s what matters most. Hopefully one of the appraisers here will give you a better answer than I can. Good luck!!!
 

Nicrez

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
3,230
It might have been to ensure the stone did not drop below 2.0ct, it might have been because the cutter felt it didn''t need it. Often some stones with thicker girdles or with a slight fisheye are specifically polished to reduce these effects, or the appearance of the thick girdle reflections.

It''s a finish, and if it''s not there, it''s not a bad thing. I have seen quite a few over 1ct stones with bruted girdles. Maybe it was bruted very well, and did not need to be polished. Often I noticed that girdles are also polished to hide the rough bruting of stones where there are tiny feathers created from the process. If your stone was left bruted, that could be a testament that the bruting was done so well, there was no feathering!

Enjoy!!!
 

wistletown

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
51
Another question added...

So if it the case that it was unpolished because the cutter wanted to retain weight above 2 carats...does this affect the price? value? Will it automatically be noted that well, this is really a 1.9 such diamond and it''s just 2.01 because it''s unpolished and therefore it is not worth the 2.00+ price?
 

Nicrez

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
3,230
Polishing a girlde should not take off THAT much weight, but honestly, I think that question is moot. It''s a 2.0ct and that always carries a premium. That''s just how it goes. But if it WAS a 1.9, versus a 2.0ct...there is absolutely no difference to you. Not sure if you are aware of how truly small the weight difference is when it translates to viewable difference in a diamond...Perhaps a .10 is more obvious in melee, but from a 1.9 to a 2.0ct, barely a thing.

There IS such a thing as over analyzing! :)
 

Beacon

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 14, 2006
Messages
2,037
I think that GIA comment about brillianteering should be looked at a little. The proportions of the diamond are such that when you run it through GIA it should rate an ''excellent''. Therefore the brillianteering brought it down. I don''t know much about that term, except that the thing relates to a diamond being ''painted'' or ''dug out''. Either of these may have occured to save carat weight.

Maybe this stone was cut with absolutely every effort made to make 2ct. It doesn''t make it a bad stone, especially if it looks good to you, but do check into it.
 

Nicrez

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
3,230
Beacon''s right. They did everything they could to keep it a 2c it seems. Likely the facets were painted on.

Brillanteering is the facet producing stage of diamond cutting, where the stone gets its finishing facets. It''s seen on the crown portion.

Painted on, meaning that the factes where not properly polished in, and only touched to the wheel, thus leaving extra weight, when it should have been polished DEEPER to complete the facet and make sharp facet junctions. Painting can be detected when the facet junctions are blurry a bit and not crisp.

Digging out, is when they have done the exact opposite, and have left that facet on the wheel and actually dug INTO the stone too deep, almost bowing into the silhouette of the stone, either to get rid of a surface imperfection like graining or feathers by applying too much pressure to the stone on the wheel, or a variety of other such reasons...
 

avlis

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
237
i purchased a stone with a bruted girdle, it wasnt to save weight as my stone was in the middle of a price point (1.24ct). there is less than a 0.018mm deviation on the diameter of the stone with no feathers, so maybe that supports what was mentioned earlier. i could never figure out why some stones were left with a bruted girdle, but i dont mind.

as for the painting/digging, i am suprised it was a GIA cert, most of the time a diamiond seems to get a AGS cert when painted/dug out because they dont seem mention it.
 

JohnQuixote

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
5,212
Date: 2/22/2007 11:54:13 PM
Author:wistletown
Here's a little background information on the diamond before I begin:

Cut: Round Brillant
Measurements: 8.19X8.21X5.00mm
Carat: 2.01
Color: G
Clarity: VSI
Cut Grade: Very Good
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Flourescence: None
Table: 56%
Depth: 61%
Crown Angle: 34.5 Degrees
Girdle: Thin - Medium
Pavillion Angle: 41 Degrees
Candian Polar Bear gov't certified diamond with NWT number engraved on the girdle.
Also under the table on the GIA certificate is this comment: Cut grade affected by brillanteering

I took this stone to an average appraiser (I wouldnt say they were good). The stone is set in a temporary setting for now. I just wanted an inexpensive appraiser for now to give me a bit of piece of mine the stone is real and all. After it's set in the actual setting I will bring it to a much more reputable appraiser. The appraiser did bring something to my attention. The girdle is unpolished. I've searched for unpolished bruted girdles on this forum and it's mentioned that this is only common with lhigher color grade diamonds such as (J,K) diamonds as well as very small stones.

My question is why would the cutter have chosen to do this with a G 2.0+ carat diamond? The stone is very shiny. All the proportions are good. Cost was $22,800ish. What do I have to worry about with an unfinished girdle? The price WAS a few grand lower than any price I can find for a diamond with similar specs. Did the unpolished girdle call for the lower price?

Please help.
Wistletown,

There is another possibility. Machines have been developed that are putting a fine finish on girdles. These girdles are more than bruted, but less than faceted. We call them "finely finished," as they are not completely polished or faceted, nor do they remain bruted. We've had clients tell us appraisers who have not seen this kind of finish before called it bruted. I don't know that this happened here, but wanted to bring it to your attention.

Take a look at this EOS. It uses a liquid-cooled scaife to cool the diamond while girdling. With automatic steering and no vibrations during operation the result is an extremely round, straight and high quality girdle.
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
4,930
Date: 2/22/2007 11:54:13 PM
Author:wistletown
Here''s a little background information on the diamond before I begin:

Cut: Round Brillant
Measurements: 8.19X8.21X5.00mm
Carat: 2.01
Color: G
Clarity: VSI
Cut Grade: Very Good
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Flourescence: None
Table: 56%
Depth: 61%
Crown Angle: 34.5 Degrees
Girdle: Thin - Medium
Pavillion Angle: 41 Degrees
Candian Polar Bear gov''t certified diamond with NWT number engraved on the girdle.
Also under the table on the GIA certificate is this comment: Cut grade affected by brillanteering

I took this stone to an average appraiser (I wouldnt say they were good). The stone is set in a temporary setting for now. I just wanted an inexpensive appraiser for now to give me a bit of piece of mine the stone is real and all. After it''s set in the actual setting I will bring it to a much more reputable appraiser. The appraiser did bring something to my attention. The girdle is unpolished. I''ve searched for unpolished bruted girdles on this forum and it''s mentioned that this is only common with lhigher color grade diamonds such as (J,K) diamonds as well as very small stones.

My question is why would the cutter have chosen to do this with a G 2.0+ carat diamond? The stone is very shiny. All the proportions are good. Cost was $22,800ish. What do I have to worry about with an unfinished girdle? The price WAS a few grand lower than any price I can find for a diamond with similar specs. Did the unpolished girdle call for the lower price?

Please help.
Some Diamond Cutter Factories brute their girdles...., most samples i have noticed come from Russian manufacturers....
I dont know the reason why its applied to larger colorless Diamonds..., but its still being done here and there...
 

JohnQuixote

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
5,212
Date: 2/23/2007 1:49:09 AM
Author: Nicrez
Beacon''s right. They did everything they could to keep it a 2c it seems. Likely the facets were painted on.

Brillanteering is the facet producing stage of diamond cutting, where the stone gets its finishing facets. It''s seen on the crown portion.

Painted on, meaning that the factes where not properly polished in, and only touched to the wheel, thus leaving extra weight, when it should have been polished DEEPER to complete the facet and make sharp facet junctions. Painting can be detected when the facet junctions are blurry a bit and not crisp.

Digging out, is when they have done the exact opposite, and have left that facet on the wheel and actually dug INTO the stone too deep, almost bowing into the silhouette of the stone, either to get rid of a surface imperfection like graining or feathers by applying too much pressure to the stone on the wheel, or a variety of other such reasons...
Hi Nicerz

As it relates to configurations we commonly see on PS; have you seen this journal article?

Page 3 shows subjects with crown-only painting sent to the AGS and GIA for their application of brillianteering judgments. For the most part they''re on the same page, considering there are 11.25 degrees possible and the subject with max ACP was 6.8. The GIA is more restrictive as they apply the same limit to all configurations, whereas the AGS allows more or less depending on the specific diamond''s parameters.

There are some situations where painting and digging (far less for digging) improve a stone''s appearance. That doesn''t seem to be the case with the diamond in this thread since it was lowered, but it''s easy to create a ''scare'' about the terms.
 

wistletown

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
51
John,

Can you clarify what you''re saying here? The comment you just made seems very helpful.

There are some situations where painting and digging (far less for digging) improve a stone''s appearance. That doesn''t seem to be the case with the diamond in this thread since it was lowered, but it''s easy to create a ''scare'' about the terms.
 

Lynn B

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 9, 2004
Messages
5,609
Date: 2/23/2007 10:14:06 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Wistletown,

There is another possibility. Machines have been developed that are putting a fine finish on girdles. These girdles are more than bruted, but less than faceted. We call them ''finely finished,'' as they are not completely polished or faceted, nor do they remain bruted.

I''m glad you popped in, John!


What John is describing above is how the girdle is on my (AGS-0 2.36) diamond. It is not faceted, but neither is it dull or matte looking. It''s very beautiful finish, and doesn''t detract in any way from the diamond''s beauty.



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