Unheated Sapphire from Jeff White - Should I get a Cert?

[brendaman]

After hearing from some PSers about Jeff having an unheated 3.24 ct. blue sapphire (available via his Gemscoop membership service), I immediately sent an email to Jeff and now I have first "right of refusal" for the stone.

Here''s Jeff''s description of the stone: ''I would classify this one as a ''medium'' blue (a pretty worthless description, I realize). In sunlight, it is a very bright, lively blue. It does exhibit a slight shift to violet in some forms of light (fluorescent, notably). Clarity is excellent, and the specially-designed barion oval helps preserve carat weight while not compromising performance. I created this particular oval design specifically for this sapphire.''

Tourmaline Lover noted in one of the other posts about this that the price -- nearly $7K (or about $2100 per ct.) should include a cert. Here''s what Jeff''s site (under FAQs) has to say about getting certs on his stones: "Because of the significant cost involved, I do not routinely have my stones certified by third-party labs. However, I stand behind each gemstone that I sell, and each one carries my personal "certification" and guarantee. If you find that a stone you receive from me is not of the quality claimed or has been misrepresented in any way, you are entitled to a complete refund (no questions asked)."

Should I have it certified myself or should I ask (insist?) that Jeff have it certified? How does it usually work? It would probably be better for him to send it to GIA or AGTA to have certified. How would it work if I love the stone and have to get it done myself?? Of course, I don''t know if this is the stone for me. It may be too light, too deep, but of course, I''m not a gem expert. My bf and I have looked at only a dozen or so stones -- heated and unheated, and tried on lots of sapphire (w/diamonds) rings. We are still newbies, but I think we''re beginning to have confidence in knowing what we like.

I am a fan of the way Jeff cuts his gems and am quite amazed at what he can do to sapphires to make them look like they have the H&As of a diamond. I''ve inlcuded pics of the sapphire. Here are other details of the sapphire

Gem Type: Unheated Blue Sapphire
Origin: Sri Lanka
Weight: 3.24 ct.
Size: 7.3 x 8.8 mm
Clarity: VS
Comments: Here is an incredible, medium blue beauty from Ceylon that is completely untreated! Clarity is very good, particularly for such a large blue. There are only a few faint feathers present and none that are visible face-up to the naked eye.

 

[T L]

I'm glad you asked this question because not only would a cert define that it was a sapphire, but it would give an indication of the quality of blue (tone, hue, saturation) and other things (treatments) that you cannot just get from word of mouth or a picture. GRS and AGTA provide such information on colored gems. I'm sure Richard Wise could also give you some more infomation on this as well. I'm sure it's an unheated sapphire as he states since everyone attests to his trustworthiness, but I feel that certificate stating this would give the stone value. If it were $300/ct, I wouldn't be so picky, believe me. JMO. So many people in this forum are so in love with Jeff's stones, they will tell you to pounce on it, and maybe you should. Maybe his stones are really that fantastic. I guess I'm just a cautious person, especially when spending that kind of money.

Richard Wise could also give you some insight on this as well.

 

[brendaman]

BTW, would probably get this setting with it, if we do indeed go with this stone. It's a JB Star setting which we have seen in person, and it's fabulous!

 

[T L]

Again, I would probably ask Mr. Wise since he''s seen some of the most beautiful gemstones known to exist. I wish he would look at the above pic, and he would give a very objective and realistic perspective.

 

[Linda W]

You could always send your stone to Richard Sherwood. He is very well known here on PS

 

[Inanna]

I also hope Richard Wise will share his opinion.

One thing you might want to bring up to Jeff White is that this sapphire on his site came with a certification from AGL... and if I recall the price was $2400 (I considered buying it, which is why I remember the cost). The stone you''re looking at is nearly 3 times the cost and does not come with a cert - considering the cost and size it should have some type of guarantee that the stone is what he says it is IMO. Another option could be for Jeff to perhaps send the sapphire to an independant appraiser of your choice to evaluate the stone.

Personally I think the stone is absolutely stunning, and if the picture is accurate, it is my favorite shade of blue sapphire (I''m not crazy about the "sleepy" deep blue sapphires that so many others consider ideal). This one appears so lively, and obviously well cut! It would look gorgeous in the setting you posted.

Please keep us posted and good luck!

 

[T L]

A reputable lab will give it lasting value though vs. an independent appraiser. Again, JMO. Richard Sheerwood is very good though. For example, a colored diamond is worth so much more if it has a GIA cert (not IGI, or any other lab, but GIA). AGTA, AGL and GRS are the premier labs for colored gems.

 

[marcy]

The stone looks lovely and would be gorgeous in a setting like that. I would get a cert if you feel it''s important (insurance, peace of mind, value) but if you love the stone and believe it''s what Jeff White says it is then I guess it''s depends on whether it is worth the extra expense.

 

[movie zombie]

i did not get a certificate for my stone that i bought from richard wise.
i believed and still believe he knows his stones and would not misrepresent a stone.
why would he?! he has a reputation.
however, there are those that disagree with me.
my stone was later appraised by a certified gem person for insurance purposes.

i too prefer this color of sapphire to the dark, sleepy ones that are in vogue and so imuch more expensive per carat.
i do not believe that Jeff would knowingly misrepresent a stone. he also has a reputation.
sometimes peace of mind is worth the expenditure.
you''re going to need something more than your sales receipt for insurance purposes.
i can see no reason why Jeff would object to your having the stone evaluated at your expense if it will give you peace of mind.
i do not think that vendors have the obligation to provide a certificate for each and every stone they cut and/or sell; however, as in all things it is ALWAYS let the buyer beware.

movie zombie

 

[mochi]

That is a lovely setting for that stone.

If the stone and the setting that you put in is going to be alot of $$, you will need it apprased anyways for insurance purposes.

 

[T L]

Appraisals are different than lab reports. I don't know if all appraisers have the equipment set up to define if it's untreated, but even if they do, it's really not the same prestige as a highly reputable lab. Now we all assume it's untreated, and everyone trusts Jeff, but getting a lab report is not necessarily a matter of trust. Jeff or Mr. John Doe could be the most trustworthy seller on the planet, that's not always the reason to get a lab report. It's a matter of having something tangible that gives your stone value. It's like having a Tiffany & Co ring where the signature has worn off. We all know it's worth much more if it's a true Tiiffany, so that's why it's so important to get a reputable certificate from Tiffany itself to state, "this is a Tiffany." Appraisals are for insurance purposes, but lab reports, especially those that come from highly reputable labs, give the stone true value. Lab reports also don't give a price - they just define the stone, what it is and the quality and various physical characteristics. However, an appraiser can look at a lab report and really come up with a good value for the stone.

You can always get the stone now, and then a lab report later on, but I think for a stone that is as important as this one is, I would want a lab report, but that's just me. You also cannot set the stone until it comes back from the lab.

 

[neatfreak]

Personally, no I don't think you need to get it certified. I would however get it appraised (which you should do for insurance anyway) by someone familiar with colored stones like Richard Sherwood who does have the knowledge and equipment to verify what you are buying. Then if for some reason it was not as represented you could take it up with Jeff...which I doubt would be the case, but I am sure Jeff would stand behind what he sold regardless.

 

[Linda W]

Date: 12/12/2008 10:32:48 PM
Author: neatfreak
Personally, no I don''t think you need to get it certified. I would however get it appraised (which you should do for insurance anyway) by someone familiar with colored stones like Richard Sherwood who does have the knowledge and equipment to verify what you are buying. Then if for some reason it was not as represented you could take it up with Jeff...which I doubt would be the case, but I am sure Jeff would stand behind what he sold regardless.

Thank you Neatfreak!!! I agree with you 100% about this. Richard Sherwood is wonderful and I will have to get my Pad appraised for insurance purposes. I do not want anything happening to that beauty.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 12/12/2008 8:41:10 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
A reputable lab will give it lasting value though vs. an independent appraiser. Again, JMO. Richard Sheerwood is very good though. For example, a colored diamond is worth so much more if it has a GIA cert (not IGI, or any other lab, but GIA). AGTA, AGL and GRS are the premier labs for colored gems.

You say this as though it''s get it certified now or never. If she wanted to certify it down the road to sell it she certainly could...but if all she''s doing is making sure she got what she paid for a well done appraisal can provide that easily.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 12/12/2008 9:17:54 PM
Author: movie zombie
i did not get a certificate for my stone that i bought from richard wise.
i believed and still believe he knows his stones and would not misrepresent a stone.
why would he?! he has a reputation.
however, there are those that disagree with me.
my stone was later appraised by a certified gem person for insurance purposes.

i too prefer this color of sapphire to the dark, sleepy ones that are in vogue and so imuch more expensive per carat.
i do not believe that Jeff would knowingly misrepresent a stone. he also has a reputation.
sometimes peace of mind is worth the expenditure.
you''re going to need something more than your sales receipt for insurance purposes.
i can see no reason why Jeff would object to your having the stone evaluated at your expense if it will give you peace of mind.
i do not think that vendors have the obligation to provide a certificate for each and every stone they cut and/or sell; however, as in all things it is ALWAYS let the buyer beware.

movie zombie

Ditto. I''d get the finished ring appraised for insurance, but I don''t think there is any reason to get a lab cert on a stone unless you have the intent to sell it. I''d just be sure that Jeff writes out a sales receipt stating that it is an untreated stone. There would only be a problem if the appraiser was not qualified to confirm that it is untreated.

I also love that color and was pretty tempted myself, but I have a couple of other things on my wish list and can''t have them all right now! That setting is beautiful! I can''t wait to see the finished ring if you keep it! (And I really don''t see how you could get a stone much better than this for the money.)

 

[Art Nouveau]

Your Jeff White sapphire is gorgeous. Regarding certificates, full certs from reputable labs are quite expensive. For around $300, AGL and AGTA will provide a cert that includes stone ID, any treatment and maybe country of origin, depending on the stone. If you want quality grades like tone, saturation and clarity, the price goes up to $500 to $600. Extra testing such as for copper content will be at additional cost. Unless the stone is very expensive, most color stone dealers will not provide a full cert, but will get one for you at your expense. The process can take 2 to 3 weeks or more. Another optiion if you just wants to verify the stone is a sapphire and is unheated, AGL provides ''gem briefs'' for ~$25.00. What you get is a credit card size card with a photo of your stone, the stone''s ID, and whether it is enhanced. This takes only a week or so. Shipping and insurance will be additional costs.

AN

 

[Harriet]

My $0.02:
If I'm buying a gem from a trusted source, I don't have it certed. However, since you're a newbie, the cert. would probably give you peace of mind. One solution would be to have Jeff send the sapphire to AGL for an inexpensive gem brief ($25), per Art Nouveau's suggestion. The brief will tell you whether the stone is indeed a sapphire and is indeed unheated. The brief won't go into specifics of colour (hue, tone saturation). However, that won't be an issue. If the colour screams at you, you'll know it. Numbers won't tell you anything. Because Jeff has a policy of not sending gems out for certs., I'd eat the cost myself out of fairness to him and his other customers. Good luck!

 

[Harriet]

Date: 12/12/2008 7:59:38 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
Again, I would probably ask Mr. Wise since he''s seen some of the most beautiful gemstones known to exist. I wish he would look at the above pic, and he would give a very objective and realistic perspective.

IMHO, asking him to judge based on an online picture would be placing him in an awkward position.

 

[Linda W]

Date: 12/12/2008 11:00:24 PM
Author: Harriet

Date: 12/12/2008 7:59:38 PM

Author: tourmaline_lover

Again, I would probably ask Mr. Wise since he''s seen some of the most beautiful gemstones known to exist. I wish he would look at the above pic, and he would give a very objective and realistic perspective.

IMHO, asking him to judge based on an online picture would be placing him in an awkward position.

Ditto Harriet!!!!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

The only thing I''d worry about is sending the stone to a lab before it is insured. That would be more scary than not getting the verification, to me!

 

[Linda W]

Date: 12/12/2008 11:06:32 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
The only thing I''d worry about is sending the stone to a lab before it is insured. That would be more scary than not getting the verification, to me!

Ack!!!! You are right DS

 

[LostSapphire]

Beautiful Blue. That stone is gorgeous.

When I purchased my stone from Jeff, it came with a ''certificate of gem Identification'' from a lab in Sri Lanka.

It has basic dimension information and stone description. Then it has what looks to me, to be basic test results, it is signed by a Consultant Gemologist with accreditation from England.

Frankly, it doesn''t mean much to me except I think it''s kind of cool to have it. I guess I didn''t need a certificate to tell me what my own eyes were seeing: a stone that I loved.

When I had my ring appraised, I brought along all of Jeff''s documentation, including this ''certificate''. The appraiser looked at it AFTER he had done the appraisal. I don''t see any discrepancy in what the appraiser judged, and the cert AND Jeff''s description of the stone himself.

As Neatfreak says, you could always get it done afterwards once you have the ring and it''s all insured.

 

[Harriet]

Hmm. So, the question is: Who should bear the risk? It wouldn't be fair to have Jeff do so (scratch my above suggestion) since he doesn't have a policy of sending stones out for certification. That leaves the potential buyer. Thus, brendaman may have to buy the stone and then send it to the lab. It's a scary situation, but one can't have one's cake and eat it too. Again, brendaman, good luck with your decision!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 12/12/2008 11:17:58 PM
Author: LostSapphire
Beautiful Blue. That stone is gorgeous.

When I purchased my stone from Jeff, it came with a ''certificate of gem Identification'' from a lab in Sri Lanka.

It has basic dimension information and stone description. Then it has what looks to me, to be basic test results, it is signed by a Consultant Gemologist with accreditation from England.

Frankly, it doesn''t mean much to me except I think it''s kind of cool to have it. I guess I didn''t need a certificate to tell me what my own eyes were seeing: a stone that I loved.

When I had my ring appraised, I brought along all of Jeff''s documentation, including this ''certificate''. The appraiser looked at it AFTER he had done the appraisal. I don''t see any discrepancy in what the appraiser judged, and the cert AND Jeff''s description of the stone himself.

As Neatfreak says, you could always get it done afterwards once you have the ring and it''s all insured.

Just to clarify, LS, wasn''t your stone a recut of a native cut stone? That is why that stone was purchased by Jeff with a cert. I am assuming that the oval was cut from rough, but I am not sure since he didn''t say in the email. Nevertheless, he apparently doesn''t have one or he would have told brendaman.

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 12/12/2008 11:22:34 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 12/12/2008 11:17:58 PM
Author: LostSapphire
Beautiful Blue. That stone is gorgeous.

When I purchased my stone from Jeff, it came with a ''certificate of gem Identification'' from a lab in Sri Lanka.

It has basic dimension information and stone description. Then it has what looks to me, to be basic test results, it is signed by a Consultant Gemologist with accreditation from England.

Frankly, it doesn''t mean much to me except I think it''s kind of cool to have it. I guess I didn''t need a certificate to tell me what my own eyes were seeing: a stone that I loved.

When I had my ring appraised, I brought along all of Jeff''s documentation, including this ''certificate''. The appraiser looked at it AFTER he had done the appraisal. I don''t see any discrepancy in what the appraiser judged, and the cert AND Jeff''s description of the stone himself.

As Neatfreak says, you could always get it done afterwards once you have the ring and it''s all insured.

Just to clarify, LS, wasn''t your stone a recut of a native cut stone? That is why that stone was purchased by Jeff with a cert. I am assuming that the oval was cut from rough, but I am not sure since he didn''t say in the email. Nevertheless, he apparently doesn''t have one or he would have told brendaman.

AHA yes, DS you are correct.Thanks for clearing that up.

LS

 

[T L]

Date: 12/12/2008 11:05:40 PM
Author: Linda W

Date: 12/12/2008 11:00:24 PM
Author: Harriet

Date: 12/12/2008 7:59:38 PM

Author: tourmaline_lover

Again, I would probably ask Mr. Wise since he''s seen some of the most beautiful gemstones known to exist. I wish he would look at the above pic, and he would give a very objective and realistic perspective.

IMHO, asking him to judge based on an online picture would be placing him in an awkward position.

Ditto Harriet!!!!

But isn''t everyone judging this stone based on a picture? I''m not asking him to appraise it, but if he sees potential issues with it, that''s a different story.

 

[Linda W]

What potential issues could he see with it for Pete''s Sake??????? Let''s stop making an issue out of this ok?

 

[T L]

I don't know what you're talking about Linda, and I confess, I feel I must have offended you somehow. All I know is that there were some stones on Jeff's website, and I have to admit while there were some beautiful ones, I did not love all of them, in fact I found a couple not that attractive, and one of them downright ugly. My concern is that in the heat of the moment, there was a ton of impulse purchasing off his website. If Brendaman thinks this is a great stone, then she should get it, but I don't want her to make some impulse purchases based on a bunch of women drooling and screaming that his stones are the best thing since sliced bread. Now this stone may be a great sapphire, but it's good to have a clear and objective point of view since it is a lot of money. My point with the lab report is to make sure that the sapphire is truly what it is; however, if she wants to get it, then that's her choice as well. She is trying to educate herself on this stone, and not make an impulse purchase, and I think that's a wise decision.

 

[Linda W]

Now how would you know there was a ton of impulse purchasing??? Mine was not an impulse purchase. I happen to collect pads, like you collect diamonds. To make that statement is very offensive to me, as to the other PSers as well.

 

[Harriet]

Date: 12/12/2008 11:46:30 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover
But isn't everyone judging this stone based on a picture? I'm not asking him to appraise it, but if he sees potential issues with it, that's a different story.

Please show me where I made any judgement on the stone. Even if everyone here has passed judgement on it, asking a professional to critique his colleague's work openly is asking him to act unprofessionally.