Understanding a grading - Quality vrs Price

[Aetius]

Hi all,

First off, thanks in advance for any and all advice/opinion.

I'm searching for a stone for an engagement ring and have been going round and round with bad sales teams (seriously, who doesn't contact potential customers back?) and information and think I have settled on a private jeweler I like.

I'm having a platinum ring/band combo made with a slight twist to the center stone and the irradiated blue (teal color) channel stones surrounded by classic whites. Similar to the pic below, with the teal instead of pink, oval set at a slight angle, etc.



Trouble is I know just enough about stones to be dangerous (ie, a ton more than someone who doesn't do their research, a ton less than someone who lives this stuff). My jeweler happened to get a stone in trade that is very close to the center stone I was looking for and has offered me, what I think is a very good price for it. The stone's specs are (EGL USA for speed of processing, so feel free to subtract some grades):

DIAMOND CHARACTERISTICS
Cut (Shape and Style) OVAL BRILLIANT
Carat Weight 1.01 CT
Clarity Grade SI1
Color Grade F
PROPORTIONS
Measurements 8.51 x 5.66 x 3.22 mm
Table 52.1%
Depth 56.9%
Crown Height 14.5%
Crown Angle 32.2°
Pavilion Depth 37.5%
Pavilion Angle 32°
Girdle THIN TO SL. THICK FACETED
Culet
OBSERVATIONS
Finish
Polish VERY GOOD
Symmetry GOOD

Thoughts on the stone? Obviously I know looks count more than numbers, but it looks pretty good to me. Small dark occlusion in a lower corner. What am I not thinking of?

Anyone want to make a stab in the dark on a price range for something similar, sight unseen?

 

[tyty333]

It is somewhat shallow. Beyond that without pictures, asets, etc cant really tell you much. This is why I dont like working with
a single jeweler that can only bring in one or two stones (or hopes to sell you what they already have). On the internet you have
a large selection of stones (which is important when it comes to fancy shapes like ovals).


I'm going to post some ovals that look nice so you know what to look for...
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/oval-cut/1.00-carat-g-color-vvs2-clarity-sku-92948 no bow-tie
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/oval-cut/1.00-carat-e-color-vs1-clarity-sku-295879
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/oval-cut/1.01-carat-i-color-si1-clarity-sku-311428

I'm guessing that stone would be in the mid-3ks but if its not a good stone doesnt matter what he wants for it.
Make sure its a nice stone.

 

[Aetius]

Thanks ty,

I looks like a nice stone to me, but again, I have way more experience looking at the numbers for the stones (grades, etc) than looking at actual stones... and frankly they all pretty much look the same to me. I can see the small flaws and such, but as to what makes one nice ... we'll i'll admit to being a guy and thinking they all look like shiny rocks to me.

That is why i'm looking to maximize my value on the purchase rather than finding "perfect" ... I really cant tell the difference between VS1, SI or F and H for example. That's why i'm here

I just want to know that i'm not getting ripped off...

Oh, and my last jeweler I was working with (at a very well-known place), tried to sell me a stone that I could get online for 10% cheaper ... and I mean the EXACT same GIA # stone. Between than, the jeweler that wouldn't return my call/email, the one that couldn't seem to remember that my GF is allergic to white gold and now this, I'm pretty much soured on the whole experience. I just want to be done without getting ripped off at this point.

 

[tyty333]

B&M stores have to sell for more because they have a store to pay for. I'm not surprised that he wanted more than on-line and
if you feel you need the hand-holding of a B&M then you should be willing to pay a little more (IMO). Guys got a business to run.

I worry about you NOT knowing what to look for and everything looking shiny. That's why PS is a good place to get opinions
from those who have looked at a lot of stones. If you could get up-close pictures and an aset image we could still help.

What is the price on the stone? We can show you what you could get on-line for the same price and you can decide if
that stone your are looking at is a pretty stone and a good deal.

I know you are probably over this ring business but this is something that she is going to wear for a long time and a lot of money.

Do you think your jeweler is willing to bring in 2 other stones so you could look at the 3 stones together and pick the one you like
best? You just want to feel good about what you finally decide on.

Numbers mean less on fancy cuts. What you are looking for is a stone that has a lovely faceting pattern and good light return.
Look at the stone in all different types of lighting. Take it outside. Take it out of the jewelers lights.

Ovals are notorious for having bow-ties through the middle. You want to minimize this dark area. Here is a bad bow-tie.
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/oval-cut/1.01-carat-h-color-vs2-clarity-sku-249944

I did a search on EGL-USA F, SI1 1.01 and one came up around $4100 so I might have guessed a little low. Non USA EGLs are running
cheaper.

 

[heididdl]

Hi all,

First off, thanks in advance for any and all advice/opinion.

I'm searching for a stone for an engagement ring and have been going round and round with bad sales teams (seriously, who doesn't contact potential customers back?) and information and think I have settled on a private jeweler I like.

I'm having a platinum ring/band combo made with a slight twist to the center stone and the irradiated blue (teal color) channel stones surrounded by classic whites. Similar to the pic below, with the teal instead of pink, oval set at a slight angle, etc.



Trouble is I know just enough about stones to be dangerous (ie, a ton more than someone who doesn't do their research, a ton less than someone who lives this stuff). My jeweler happened to get a stone in trade that is very close to the center stone I was looking for and has offered me, what I think is a very good price for it. The stone's specs are (EGL USA for speed of processing, so feel free to subtract some grades):

DIAMOND CHARACTERISTICS
Cut (Shape and Style) OVAL BRILLIANT
Carat Weight 1.01 CT
Clarity Grade SI1
Color Grade F
PROPORTIONS
Measurements 8.51 x 5.66 x 3.22 mm
Table 52.1%
Depth 56.9%
Crown Height 14.5%
Crown Angle 32.2°
Pavilion Depth 37.5%
Pavilion Angle 32°
Girdle THIN TO SL. THICK FACETED
Culet
OBSERVATIONS
Finish
Polish VERY GOOD
Symmetry GOOD

Thoughts on the stone? Obviously I know looks count more than numbers, but it looks pretty good to me. Small dark occlusion in a lower corner. What am I not thinking of?

Anyone want to make a stab in the dark on a price range for something similar, sight unseen?

Why would you want irradiated diamonds, I would rather use sapphires then enhanced diamonds.

 

[Aetius]

Ty - I'm probably overstating how much I don't know. But, as I stated, really what I DO know is how to find a good diamond "by the numbers". If you put three stones in front of me, apart from occlusions and other visual errors, I probably wouldn't see a lot of difference in the F-H color ranges or similar small differences in cut, etc.

The price is about $3,000-$3,200. Similar stones through the major jeweler in town were running me $4k-$4,500 ... and while i completely understand the concept of overhead (I am an MBA in Corp ops) they advertise as being cheaper based on volume (and they do move a TON of volume). I would say they actually move so much volume that individual customers are not important to them.

Bottom line is my new jeweler (who was VP of the place mentioned above for a decade) can do the entire custom design plus stone for almost $3k less ($1500 on both the stone and the ring/band) and is slightly more attentive. Basically I'm looking to spend just under $8-10k total (my girl is already going to be uncomfortable with that much on her ... i'll probably not tell or say it cost less).

I did not notice much/any bowtie when looking at the stone, and that is something I know to look for. That said, i could have missed it. I guess I want to look at the stone again.

Heidi - I want the irradiated diamonds because they are the only stones hard enough with the rich teal color i'm looking for. She has a ring given to her by her dad when she was little that I'm trying to match the stone color of. All of the sapphires I've seen have not had rich enough color in that range. They tend more toward paler colors from what I've seen.

Thanks guys!

 

[msop04]

Ty - I'm probably overstating how much I don't know. But, as I stated, really what I DO know is how to find a good diamond "by the numbers". If you put three stones in front of me, apart from occlusions and other visual errors, I probably wouldn't see a lot of difference in the F-H color ranges or similar small differences in cut, etc.

The price is about $3,000-$3,200. Similar stones through the major jeweler in town were running me $4k-$4,500 ... and while i completely understand the concept of overhead (I am an MBA in Corp ops) they advertise as being cheaper based on volume (and they do move a TON of volume). I would say they actually move so much volume that individual customers are not important to them.

Bottom line is my new jeweler (who was VP of the place mentioned above for a decade) can do the entire custom design plus stone for almost $3k less ($1500 on both the stone and the ring/band) and is slightly more attentive. Basically I'm looking to spend just under $8-10k total (my girl is already going to be uncomfortable with that much on her ... i'll probably not tell or say it cost less).

I did not notice much/any bowtie when looking at the stone, and that is something I know to look for. That said, i could have missed it. I guess I want to look at the stone again.

Heidi - I want the irradiated diamonds because they are the only stones hard enough with the rich teal color i'm looking for. She has a ring given to her by her dad when she was little that I'm trying to match the stone color of. All of the sapphires I've seen have not had rich enough color in that range. They tend more toward paler colors from what I've seen.

Thanks guys!

Hey Aetius

I understand what you're saying, as far as your local jeweler and volume to customer service. However, there are many PS trusted vendors that deal in crazy volume and still manage to provide excellent customer service. Ovals are tricky, obviously, since you can't go by the numbers at all. Out of 20 ovals, 17 of them tend to look like crap. I would think it may be more difficult to tell nice ones from "not-so-nice" ovals unless you can see them together (assuming at least one was a nicely cut oval).

I am a little concerned about the price of the stone, simply because there are no "deals" in diamonds -- you really do get what you pay for... That said, if online vendors like JA or WF (who work on very slim margins) have similar stones for more, I am worried that the stone isn't really that good.

What is your max budget for the stone alone? Their are PS members who have a knack for finding the prettiest fancies that would be happy to help you!

 

[msop04]

That is why i'm looking to maximize my value on the purchase rather than finding "perfect" ... I really cant tell the difference between VS1, SI or F and H for example. That's why i'm here

I feel you Aetius! I agree that a good way to maximize your budget is to try to find the lowest color you can tolerate (or she can tolerate) in an eye clean SI stone. Although I own a J round, I wouldn't go below H in an oval due to the color saturation in that cut. I would look for a G/H in an eye clean SI1/SI2. Also, ignore carat weight. Ovals dimensions vary greatly and the carat weight doesn't always reflect that... i.e. you could find a 0.9 ct that looked larger or the same size as a full 1.0 ct.

Speaking of oval searching... where is NIEL???

 

[msop04]

I ran a search through JA with the following parameters:

D-H
FL-SI2
0.85-15.00 ct
max: $4200

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-dia...t=Price asc, DefaultOrder&TabSelected=1&ps=15

There were 54 results, but none of them looked good. There was one I looked at that I thought might be okay since it had no bow-tie and nice facets in the middle, but it also had "mush" on either side from the middle and it was over budget @ $3640.

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/oval-cut/0.90-carat-d-color-si2-clarity-sku-267754

So... you're either going to have to decrease your "size" preference or increase your budget considerably -- or both.

It is highly unlikely that the stone you saw was anywhere near F color and looks half way decent for that price point. I would contact a PS vendor to source a nice oval for you.

 

[Aetius]

Let me see if I can get a picture or two of it. I know we wont be able to tell a ton off of whatever I get, but maybe it will help some.

The jeweler got the stone in trade a few days after we started talking and we had it graded after he ballparked me a price. The grading came back slightly better than what he had estimated but he kept the price. So far, I trust this jeweler way more than any other I've met. His business is word-of-mouth since his work is custom, and since he is a one-man shop, his overhead will be significantly lower (although his location is still quite nice).

My budget is pretty flexible, but again I run into a hard cap for the total somewhere around $10k as she will give me significant crap for even spending near that. We come from different worlds ...

The original plan was to ballpark $4k for the stone and $4k for the setting. Right now I'm in the $7k total range due to the better pricing for my current jeweler (same CAD design). He's currently trying to find me matching stones for the channel. I could go higher, but it is really a matter of value per dollar for me (i'm sure i'm treating this too much like a business purchase, but its a hard mindset to get away from).

I'm pretty impressed with this community. You guys are great.

 

[Aetius]

... haven't heard back from my guy since the 9th. Pinged him on the 10th and asked if he had a pic of the stone (I'd seen it in person but was hoping for something I could show you guys). Pinged him twice more just asking if everything was still moving forward and haven't heard back.

Not sure if it is all jewelers, or just my luck, but the customer service has been really bad.

Attempt #1 - The girl couldn't remember that my fiancée is allergic to white gold, or that I was looking for an oval OR that she had never met my GF (kept saying "isn't this what she like when you guys came in")

Attempt #2 - High pressure sales guy. Wanted me to buy what HE wanted me to buy. Kept telling me how good a deal I was getting when I could Google the same stones for $500-$1000 less.

Attempt #3 - Liked the guy. Was a little worried on the quality of the stone (although I never told him that), so I came here to make sure I was making a good decision. Got everything rolling and then *poof*, the guy just stops emailing after getting the stone graded.

I'm starting to think that this is a sign. =P

 

[luvdajules]

Oh no, I'm so sorry to hear this, can you start over and have us post some suggestions? Did you put down a deposit, can you get it back? If the deposit was made with a credit card, maybe you can work through the cc. What timeframe are you working under? Let us help you if we can.

 

[Aetius]

Well, here's the stuff I originally sent to the jeweler as for what I'm kind of looking for:
1) She likes color – specifically ocean blue/greens for channel or accessory stones (I still like the central stone to be a carat).
2) I’m still thinking somewhere around 1 carat for the center stone, but am negotiable based on price/quality/etc
3) Platinum for the band unless you find something very unique and pretty using gold (rose or normal).
4) She does like the untraditional looks with the colored stone in the center, but I’m not sure how I feel about it. I can probably be convinced though.
5) She's a Nurse Practitioner so she takes gloves on/off a lot - something that doesn't sit high to be caught on gloves would be good.

Which eventually (by the second Jeweler) let to these CADs. They are pretty close. The channels would have teal (irradiated diamond) stones and the "bands" on the outside would be diamonds (which doesn't show in the CAD).

As for timeline. I talked to the first jeweler on 2/3/14 (!!!) with the intention of having something for our 3/20 anniversary, and the second started in March and this last guy through May and June. At this point i'd just like to have something before she decides i'm not going to ask and leaves me.

 

[luvdajules]

Since you did not mention a deposit, I'm assuming there isn't one to be concerned about. How about starting the process with someone like CVB Designs (an Etsy vendor and well regarded on PS so far). I mention this vendor b/c she may be able to give more personalized service and is a smaller shop in general, but can do beautiful work. Maybe Love Affair Diamonds? Others can chime in on other vendor/designers to recommend.

ETA: Might want to start a new thread or change the name of this one to get the attention this deserves w/o the extra info.

 

[Aetius]

Sorry, correct, no deposit. I wrote that in my original reply, but it somehow got eaten and I had to repost (I also got a ton of errors trying to attach the photos).

I thought about changing the name, but wasn't sure where I was going with this. I'll think about how I want to rephrase, thanks!