Tycoon diamond - Is this really true?

[DiamondDumbie]

Is this true about Tycoon Cut Diamonds?

Tycoon Cut Diamond™
Internationally recognised for its ability to reflect up to 30% more light, the Tycoon Cut™ is one of the most stunning advances in diamond cutting to occur in the past decade. When placed side by side against a traditional cut diamond of similar quality, even an inexperienced eye can usually see the added sparkle in the stone.
http://www.solidgoldjewellers.com.au/AGuidetoDiamonds/ChoosingYourDiamond.aspx


Furthermore, are all Tycoon diamonds "Ideal Cut"? Or is it necessary to have a Tycoon diamond cut qualitiy verified by an independent appraiser, such as Consumers Gem Laboratory or Accredited Gem Appraisers, to ensure the Cut Quality is Ideal?

It is difficult to find out if they patent branded Tycoon diamond are Ideal Cut or if they sell their diamonds with various degrees of cut quality. Thank you in advance for your assistance!!

 

[Lorelei]

Hi there!

Didn't you post a thread asking similar questions the other week?

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/too-much-diamond-info-need-help-w-selection.65171/page-2

Normally there isn't as much traffic with experts here this weekend who may be able to help you, but I hope you find the answers you seek. Regarding cut quality, as it seems from the last thread that not many of us are familiar with this cut, it is very debatable what makes this cut ' Ideal' from any perspective, and as such perhaps it might be best to try to find the leading experts on this brand, to research and get their opinions on the best proportions etc, and validity of Idealscope and other technologies to analyse this cut.

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/15/2007 9:38:36 AM
Author:DiamondDumbie


Is this true about Tycoon Cut Diamonds?

Tycoon Cut Diamond™
Internationally recognised for its ability to reflect up to 30% more light, the Tycoon Cut™ is one of the most stunning advances in diamond cutting to occur in the past decade. When placed side by side against a traditional cut diamond of similar quality, even an inexperienced eye can usually see the added sparkle in the stone.
I have a problem with that statement: I am trying to figure out the ''advances'' in Diamond cutting??

http://www.solidgoldjewellers.com.au/AGuidetoDiamonds/ChoosingYourDiamond.aspx


Furthermore, are all Tycoon diamonds ''Ideal Cut''? Or is it necessary to have a Tycoon diamond cut qualitiy verified by an independent appraiser, such as Consumers Gem Laboratory or Accredited Gem Appraisers, to ensure the Cut Quality is Ideal?


Since Tycoon cut is a Patented Cut..., the owners can call their cuts whatever they want... (Ideal or else), I am sure there is a scope that all Tycoon Diamonds should be cut within..., If they are is another story.

It is difficult to find out if they patent branded Tycoon diamond are Ideal Cut or if they sell their diamonds with various degrees of cut quality. Thank you in advance for your assistance!!

 

[MaryAlaina]

I''m not here to comment on your questions specifically, but I will tell you that I have met the owner of the Tycoon diamond company in person, and seen many of the Tycoon cut stones in person. The stones are absolutely beautiful! I saw and tried on the rings below- just stunning!

 

[denverappraiser]

Advertising jargon is always a bit fun to deconstruct. I’ll have a go at it.

Internationally recognised (This means that at least 2 people in different countries believe this. I’ll certainly concede that this is probably correct even though I don’t know either one. 9 out of 10 dentists surveyed …..)

for its ability to reflect up to 30% more light. (Reflect more light than what? I agree that there are stones that reflect light poorly and that the Tycoon folks can surely come up with an example of one to use in comparison.)

stunning advances in diamond cutting. (Huh? It’s a facet pattern and a brand identification. What advance? Mind you, there have been some significant changes in the way diamonds are manufactured and sold in the last decade but they have to do with equipment and automation at the cutting houses, the importance of lab grading, more standardized cut grading and evaluation tools, Internet advertising at all levels of the industry, customer education and the like but facet design hasn’t been one of them.)

in the past decade. (certain advances, like the popularity of the Internet as a sales and marketing tool, the success of Sarin, FedEx and Visa in their respective parts of the deal are a little hard to pin a date on but they have certainly accelerated in the last decade. The introduction of Pricescope for consumer education would certainly qualify as a ‘stunning advance’)

When placed side by side against a traditional cut diamond. (What’s that? Traditional cut I mean. Presumably this is the standard 57 facet round brilliant pattern that is being referred to here but since a tycoon has a more rectangular or square shape to it it would seem appropriate to compare to something else. Radiant maybe? Princess? Few would call those 'traditional' but they can be quite lovely. Had they been paying attention to some of the other ‘stunning advances’ listed above, they surly would concede the point that not all 57 facet round brilliant cut diamonds offer the same light behavior, nor do all baguettes, radiants or tycoons. I’ve no doubt that it would be easy to find at least one round brilliant cut stone that looks worse than at least one Tycoon cut stone. )

of similar quality (Apparently by ‘similar quality’ they mean something other than light performance or ‘sparkle’ but I have no idea what they might mean. Weight? Color? Price?)

even an inexperienced eye can usually see (Again, I’m not sure what they mean here but I agree that finding a stone that would have more scintillation in certain lighting conditions than another of similar weight, clarity and color shouldn’t be difficult, whatever the facet pattern)

the added sparkle in the stone (Does this mean scintillation? Total light return from an overhead light source? Number of flashes? Something else entirely? Sparkle is not a precise term that can mean quite a few different things to different people. Maximizing total light reflection, for example, can be done far better with a piece of silvered glass than any diamond regardless of facet design. A simple mirror shows superb ‘sparkle’ under the right circumstances and with the correct definition of the term)

So, is what they said true? I suppose it is. It just depends on how you read it. The more important question is whether you should care.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 7/15/2007 9:38:36 AM
Author:DiamondDumbie


Furthermore, are all Tycoon diamonds ''Ideal Cut''? Or is it necessary to have a Tycoon diamond cut qualitiy verified by an independent appraiser, such as Consumers Gem Laboratory or Accredited Gem Appraisers, to ensure the Cut Quality is Ideal?

As mentioned above, it’s important to define what is meant by ‘Ideal Cut’ since different people use this term differently. AGS has a widely used definition used for round brilliant and princess cuts and are working on others and they have a pre-2005 definition that is still widely used by others for round brilliants but I know of no other widely accepted definitions and I don’t know of any that would apply to a Tycoon cut.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[DiamondDumbie]

Date: 7/15/2007 9:44:32 AM
Author: Lorelei
Hi there!

Didn''t you post a thread asking similar questions the other week?

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/too-much-diamond-info-need-help-w-selection.65171/page-2

Normally there isn''t as much traffic with experts here this weekend who may be able to help you, but I hope you find the answers you seek. Regarding cut quality, as it seems from the last thread that not many of us are familiar with this cut, it is very debatable what makes this cut '' Ideal'' from any perspective, and as such perhaps it might be best to try to find the leading experts on this brand, to research and get their opinions on the best proportions etc, and validity of Idealscope and other technologies to analyse this cut.

Yes, I had another post last week about Tycoon diamonds and too much diamond info. Actually, that was my first and only post. However, I wanted to get into specific info regarding Cut Quality for Tycoon Diamonds.

I have reached the conclusion that nobody (or at least nobody has information available via the internet) knows the cut quality of the Tycoon diamond. I am not talking about cut quality that relates to a specific standard that is already in place, like for the round diamond. I am talking about information that indicates all Tycoon diamonds will qualify as Ideal Cut based how much light reflects out of the top. Tycoon does not make the claim that all their diamonds are Ideal cut quality. Furthermore, there does not seem to be any cut quality test results that prove Tycoon diamonds reflect light in such a manner they are to be considered Ideal cut.

The Tycoon diamond has been available for almost a decade yet it seems as if there is no evidence of someone testing the Cut Quality of the Tycoon diamond. It just seems odd...

 

[DiamondDumbie]

Date: 7/15/2007 11:13:09 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Advertising jargon is always a bit fun to deconstruct. I’ll have a go at it.


So, is what they said true? I suppose it is. It just depends on how you read it. The more important question is whether you should care.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Your points are exactly what I am talking about. Tycoon makes some great (yet general) claims. The reason for this thread is because I do care about the Cut Quality of Tycoon diamonds and it is very important to under if these diamonds do indeed reflect the light back through the top, instead of losing it through the bottom or sides of the diamond.

It seems like the Cut Quality tests that are available and offered through Independent Appraisers would validate the Tycoon diamond as an Ideal Cut. As a diamond newbie or dumbie, I thought it was worth asking the question.

 

[denverappraiser]

It's a great question and it's definitely worth asking. These things are confusing as hell.

Your use of the term ‘ideal cut’ seems to be leading you astray. This does not mean the same as ‘best’ or ‘optimum’ but rather is a specific scoring of whether a stone falls within a specific set of parameters. That’s why it’s so important to understand what those parameters are. AGS uses a scale that goes from 0 – 10 and only the 0 grade get’s assigned the term ideal and we have a completely different set for round and princess cuts. They are terribly specific about what is required to make that rank. If Tycoon hasn’t published a benchmark that relates to their design then you’ve got nothing to use for comparison and ‘Ideal’ can mean anything at all, including something that could include either all or none of the Tycoon cuts.

Idealness in it’s usual usage is not a measure how much light reflects out the top and what you are wishing to measure is not directly a function of either facet design or branding. BrillianceScope and Imagem are both attempts to measure face up light return of real stones in something of a controlled environment and I’ve no doubt they have both worked with Tycoon cut stones but the results will be different for each individual stone. Some, but far from all, of the independent appraisers and selling dealers may be able to assist you in getting these tests if you would like but they will apply only to a specific stone of interest and you would learn nothing about Tycoons or anything else in general terms. Most appraisers have access to idealscopes and ASET tools that may be helpful to you but none of these things will lead to a conclusion that a stone or group of stones is 'Ideal'.

There’s simply no way to make a meaningful blanket statement that ALL Tycoon cuts are anything at all. That’s why you can’t find it. What you’re asking is like observing that lots of red cars seem to go fast and then trying to decide which shade of red goes fastest.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[surfgirl]

I saw one of those Tycoon Cuts in person a few months ago and to say the look is "frenetic" is an understatement. I''d much prefer to have a quieter cut like a true EC/SE! I think all your questions, and to some extent Neil has addressed them (Neil, your post cracked me up!), is that their claims appear to be solely the domain of marketing mumbo jumbo.

 

[DiamondDumbie]

Date: 7/15/2007 1:38:08 PM
Author: denverappraiser


There’s simply no way to make a meaningful blanket statement that ALL Tycoon cuts are anything at all. That’s why you can’t find it. What you’re asking is like observing that lots of red cars seem to go fast and then trying to decide which shade of red goes fastest.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Actually, this is the problem with the diamond industry. Yes...problem. The shade of red will not provide the answer. However, each red car can be tested and evaluated to determine which is the fastest red car. The diamond industry has been around a lot longer than the auto industry. Yet the diamond industry still lacks industry standards, similar to what we see with the auto industry and every other major industry.

Industry Standards! Is it really that difficult to figure out? There are enough intellegent individuals within the diamond industry to resolve this. Obviously, the diamond industry does not want to be standardized or else it would have already be done. AGA did this for fancy stones. Even AGA realizes nobody wants to acknowledge their standards with even a comment or suggestion. Because this could eventually cause AGA''s fancy stone standards to become industry standards. Thus taking away industry''s control on pricing. Is this far off?

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/15/2007 4:18:43 PM
Author: DiamondDumbie

Date: 7/15/2007 1:38:08 PM
Author: denverappraiser


There’s simply no way to make a meaningful blanket statement that ALL Tycoon cuts are anything at all. That’s why you can’t find it. What you’re asking is like observing that lots of red cars seem to go fast and then trying to decide which shade of red goes fastest.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Actually, this is the problem with the diamond industry. Yes...problem. The shade of red will not provide the answer. However, each red car can be tested and evaluated to determine which is the fastest red car. The diamond industry has been around a lot longer than the auto industry. Yet the diamond industry still lacks industry standards, similar to what we see with the auto industry and every other major industry.

Industry Standards! Is it really that difficult to figure out? There are enough intellegent individuals within the diamond industry to resolve this. Obviously, the diamond industry does not want to be standardized or else it would have already be done. AGA did this for fancy stones. Even AGA realizes nobody wants to acknowledge their standards with even a comment or suggestion. Because this could eventually cause AGA's fancy stone standards to become industry standards. Thus taking away industry's control on pricing. Is this far off?

DD...,

There are tons of cars that are identical when new....
There is no such thing as an identical Diamond!!!

Big difference!

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 7/15/2007 4:23:10 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 7/15/2007 4:18:43 PM

Author: DiamondDumbie

Date: 7/15/2007 1:38:08 PM

Author: denverappraiser



There’s simply no way to make a meaningful blanket statement that ALL Tycoon cuts are anything at all. That’s why you can’t find it. What you’re asking is like observing that lots of red cars seem to go fast and then trying to decide which shade of red goes fastest.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver

Actually, this is the problem with the diamond industry. Yes...problem. The shade of red will not provide the answer. However, each red car can be tested and evaluated to determine which is the fastest red car. The diamond industry has been around a lot longer than the auto industry. Yet the diamond industry still lacks industry standards, similar to what we see with the auto industry and every other major industry.


Industry Standards! Is it really that difficult to figure out? There are enough intellegent individuals within the diamond industry to resolve this. Obviously, the diamond industry does not want to be standardized or else it would have already be done. AGA did this for fancy stones. Even AGA realizes nobody wants to acknowledge their standards with even a comment or suggestion. Because this could eventually cause AGA''s fancy stone standards to become industry standards. Thus taking away industry''s control on pricing. Is this far off?

DD...,


There are tons of cars that are identical when new....

There is no such thing as an identical Diamond!!!


Big difference!

Well said!

Wink

 

[denverappraiser]

The AGA charts are not standards for the industry because they are simply not sufficient to describe diamonds, be they fancy cuts or otherwise. They don’t relate to what most people are interested in measuring, rather like the paint color problem. For example, they don’t comment on light return or any other optical performance at all. This means that their definition of ‘ideal’ doesn’t relate at all to the attribute that you seem to consider the most important, namely face up light return. Many fast cars are red. I suspect that a study of speed vs. color would show that the average red car goes faster than the average of, say, pink cars but there may be other things at play. My theory is that people who buy fast cars simply like red more than pink and the manufacturers are responding to this by making things that their customers want. They would switch to making make more pink ones in a heartbeat if only they sold better.

I agree that there is a problem with standards in the diamond industry but it’s the point you seem to be arguing against. You want someone to describe a stone as ‘ideal’ but are objecting to a requirement of a definition for idealness. If you don’t like my car analogy, how about this: Who is the best painter? Would it be the one whose work looks the most like a photograph? To be sure that’s a difficult talent and lots of people admire it but does this really make them the best? Picasso and Monet would certainly grade out as dreadful on any scale that measured this and yet their work seems to bring high prices when they come up for auction. Photorealism doesn’t generally command the highest prices so there must be something else. Size? Palate used? Subject? Is it even a valid question?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Hey, well I am not going to go into all of the current discussion of problems with the diamond industry. But I will say that it would be hard to return 30% more light than a diamond that is already returning 90+% of the light entering the crown..maybe tycoon diamonds have a special light suction device that allows some extra light to get sucked in from the sides and straight out the top?

I believe the 30% number given without a grade or performance to compare it with is sufficient to write this document off as advertising propaganda. It also implies the quality of the diamonds with which they are deriving their comparisons. If this were in fact the meat of understanding of associated sales reps, etc, then it would be enough to drive me away at least. Otherwise, just keep looking for actual information rather than the trickery and deceit inherent in pretty much all advertisements.

 

[decodelighted]

I think Mara & Gypsy saw a few Tycoon cuts in person on an excursion -- if I recall correctly, they were less than impressed. I believe the word was "dark".

Hopefully they'll weigh in ...

As to advertising jargon & blab-be-de-blah ... don't believe the hype. Diamonds are shiny pretty things in general. If it appeals to your eye, to you personally - snatch it on up. If you're looking for some kind of objective "fact" about it's superiority -- keep on waiting. It's too complex. Too many different diamond shapes - not to mention the differing qualities of ROUGH MATERIAL. Diamonds are NOT designed entirely by MAN. They can be judged & graded & called "ideal" etc etc -- but even if something could be labeled "the best" for a single moment in time (which it can't -- but even if it could) FASHION WOULD CHANGE. CUT TECHNOLOGY WOULD CHANGE. It's a moving target -- just like technology. Buy the best computer on the market today and wait a day -- ooops ... not anymore. But BEAUTY, you can't argue with. BEAUTY is subjective ... personal ... enduring.

 

[Siamese Kitty]

FWIW- I was in a jewelry store around Christmas and admired the ring on the owner''s wife which turned out to be a Tycoon cut. I can''t speak to the cut factor, but I thought it was an interesting, beautiful stone. Hers looked to be around 3 ct and I wonder if its size made the extra faceting "work" for the stone. Definitely not a cut for everyone, though.

 

[DiamondDumbie]

Date: 7/15/2007 5:01:35 PM
Author: denverappraiser
The AGA charts are not standards for the industry because they are simply not sufficient to describe diamonds, be they fancy cuts or otherwise. They don’t relate to what most people are interested in measuring, rather like the paint color problem. For example, they don’t comment on light return or any other optical performance at all. This means that their definition of ‘ideal’ doesn’t relate at all to the attribute that you seem to consider the most important, namely face up light return. Many fast cars are red. I suspect that a study of speed vs. color would show that the average red car goes faster than the average of, say, pink cars but there may be other things at play. My theory is that people who buy fast cars simply like red more than pink and the manufacturers are responding to this by making things that their customers want. They would switch to making make more pink ones in a heartbeat if only they sold better.

I agree that there is a problem with standards in the diamond industry but it’s the point you seem to be arguing against. You want someone to describe a stone as ‘ideal’ but are objecting to a requirement of a definition for idealness. If you don’t like my car analogy, how about this: Who is the best painter? Would it be the one whose work looks the most like a photograph? To be sure that’s a difficult talent and lots of people admire it but does this really make them the best? Picasso and Monet would certainly grade out as dreadful on any scale that measured this and yet their work seems to bring high prices when they come up for auction. Photorealism doesn’t generally command the highest prices so there must be something else. Size? Palate used? Subject? Is it even a valid question?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

It seems we are on a tangent. I apologize for taking my initial subject in another direction. However, the issue with evaluating Cut does seem to be a common thread with the general public. At least, it appears to be a common thread amongst the threads within this forum.

Your analogy with painting or art hit home a little more than the car anology. We have Blue Book values for cars. We even have industry standards for Real Estate even though no two houses are a like, similar to diamonds. However, you cannot put an industry standard on art. The price is dictated by the market and what it will pay. Now I may be hoping another can of worms. The next question… Are diamonds art or a form of science?

If diamonds were evaluated as Art, there could not be an industry standard for evaluating diamonds.

Now it appears the standard shape diamonds typically fall into the science category and the fancy shapes or brand diamonds fall into the science and art categories. Consider how diamonds are evaluated.

The diamond industry almost has an industry standard based primarily on science / mathematics. The four C’s are what most experts consider important when determining the diamond’s value. Carat, Color and Clarity are determined by scientific or mathematical evaluations that are standard within the diamond industry. These can be found on PS or retailers websites. Furthermore, retails and appraisers claim they can even evaluate the most import C, which is Cut, by measure the light reflecting from the diamond. Therefore, is it fair to say diamonds already do have an industry standard for the “standard or typical” shape diamonds – round, princess, emerald, etc.

Art is introduced by creating fancy shape or brand diamonds. Thus eliminating any form of evaluation standard. Therefore, this allows the value to be dictated by the market place.

If this analysis seems reasonable, it seems reasonable that the Cut evaluation could be standardized by a universal measuring device for all diamonds. Everyone debates the reliability of the machines used today to evaluate Cut. But for the most part, everyone seems to be ok with how the Color is evaluated even though it too is not perfect. At least there would be an industry standard for all Four C’s and the consumer would be less weary of buying diamonds. Let’s be honest, there a large percent of consumers who do not feel they understand what they are buying when they buy a diamond. That does not mean they are not happy with it. Would they be happier if they knew they paid what it was worth, similar to buying a car or home within there value range?

As a consumer, I feel three C’s are easy to understand. Obviously, it is clear by now I do not feel the same about the forth C – Cut.

If I were a seller, appraiser or earned a living in the diamond industry, I would prefer less standardization so the market (buyers) would dictate the value. Furthermore, the lack of standardization also creates job security for those assisting the market (buyers).

Please do take this the wrong way. It is just my observation. I would prefer my industry to be less standardized so we could have the same benefits. It is a very powerful position of control. Anyone in business would want this.

Thank you again for everyone’s time, input, suggestions and assistance. This is a great forum and I appreciate everyone!!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

great deconstruction Neil

There is an objective test for $25 - ideal-scope

And a quantitative test for free - get a 3D sarin scan of the stone, post it here and we will run a DiamCalc light return score for you. You should expect this cut to range between 60% and 75% of the light return of a Tolkowsky round

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

You mind if I ask what exactly it is about cut that makes it so difficult to understand?

before I address my own understanding of the issue I also want to mention that as far as consumer is concerned, I believe the the real scientific aspect of diamonds has really come about in response to internet. Before the internet you would walk into a store and look at a diamond. If it was a beautiful piece of art then you bought it, if not you would move on until one was beautiful and in your price range.

But now we have the internet, and there is just no way to actually capture the various visual aspects of a diamond in their entirety online, and if they took the time, money, and effort to try then we would lose the cost benefits of purchasing online and the B&M would win out. The visual beauty of diamonds, however, after establishing the initial three C's, is really about the way in which the diamond refracts and disperses light. While the minutia of how it does this can be quite complicating--as has been seen in recent threads--the overall and general manner in which any particular diamond will do so is really fairly consistent and can be understood fairly well scientifically.

Thus, moving back to the art analogy, the real key is to establish what type of art you prefer--what type of canvas, what types of paints, and what general styles you enjoy. Now if you extend this analogy it would seem overwhelming. How could you simply pick a piece of art based solely on the aforementioned elements? the exact pattern of which different colors and hues are presented in the work will really determine how you feel about it. But that is also where the diamond analogy, as with any analogy, breaks down. Diamonds are not stationary pieces of art, thus the very fine and minute elements of patterns of colors will not be overwhelmingly relevant because they will be constantly changing and you will only be capturing random snapshots of that pattern as you live with it throughout the day. Thus once you establish those primary elements of how the light will be refracted and dispersed you have truly established enough to coordinate that knowledge with your own preferences and select a diamond that will be incredible to live with from day to day. Thus the goal of choosing a diamond that will perform well according to your own personal artistic preferences based on a scientific analysis of the diamond, and then a few personal observations is not overwhelmingly complicated to accomplish.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 7/15/2007 10:50:59 PM
Author: DiamondDumbie

The diamond industry almost has an industry standard based primarily on science / mathematics. The four C’s are what most experts consider important when determining the diamond’s value. Carat, Color and Clarity are determined by scientific or mathematical evaluations that are standard within the diamond industry. These can be found on PS or retailers websites. Furthermore, retails and appraisers claim they can even evaluate the most import C, which is Cut, by measure the light reflecting from the diamond. Therefore, is it fair to say diamonds already do have an industry standard for the “standard or typical” shape diamonds –

Unfortunately, clarity and color both cause more trouble with the standardization issue than cut does.

Color in diamonds is measured is a decidedly arcane fashion and our use of the term ‘color’ is quite different from the folks in printing, paint, fashion and other industries. Most of these other people are far more precise about it. A single stone can easily differ by several color grades depending on who graded it and under what conditions and at least some of this is a genuine disagreement on the ''facts''. It’s common for a dealer to send a stone to multiple labs in order to get the grade they were hoping for, which is one of the major issues with ‘certified’ diamonds.

Clarity is a problem as well. Even ignoring borderline stones where there is a difficult judgment call to be made there are issues of the scale at all. The SI3 clarity grade, for example, is used by some graders and not by others. As with color, clarity can easily vary by several grades depending on who did the grading and under what conditions. Single grade disagreements are really quite common even among highly regarded experts.

With many graders, symmetry and polish seem to be nearly random.

Even weight can be a problem. If a stone is inspected after it’s mounted it’s necessary to approximate the weight from the dimensions. Depending on the limitations of the setting it’s not unusual for even highly skilled graders to vary by 5% or so. Since diamonds are often cut to be in the neighborhood of specific weights where the prices tend to change (1.00 ct., 2.00cts. etc.) this can be a pretty important issue. A 1.90ct. stone will command a considerably different price from an otherwise identical 2.00.

I agree that all of this confusion provides a certain amount of job security for appraisers and that this isn''t without it''s merits (at least for those of us who are appraisers) but a more standardized approach would bring it''s own opportunities as well. I don''t think it''s a vast conspiracy by the industry, we''re just not that well organized.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

Working,

It’s only as complicated as you want to make it and the Internet has made it easy to carry this to an extreme. For most customers diamonds are a blind item that is insanely expensive. In the case of bridal purchases it’s usually the most expensive thing the customer has ever bought with the possible exception of their car and they desperately want something to point at to indicate why one is so more expensive than another. The only reason they are making the purchase at all is a fabricated social pressure that this is what guys have to do to get married. They don’t want a diamond at all, they want the girl. Without experience it’s difficult to tell the difference from one to the next and the experience is difficult to get.

It ends up being an issue of trust and it’s hard to know who to trust. The retailer? The lab? The appraiser? Pricescope? Idealscope? Back when I got into this business the answer was simple. The retailer. If you didn’t trust them you found someone else. Chances are good that this is how your grandparents did it and it was a pretty easy approach. Often it worked pretty well but there are obvious opportunities for problems and abuses. Modern customers are far more cynical than their grandparents used to be and people here use the term ‘b&m’ with a bit of a sneer as a place where dummies shop to pay too much. It’s easy to find online offers that quote cheaper prices and that are telling you to trust a 3rd party lab. The retailer is interchangeable. As long as the stone is ‘certified’, you’re safe.

Everyone who has spent much time here has heard advice that this isn’t correct, that the brand of the lab matters and that cut, which mostly isn’t discussed on the lab reports, is king. So how do you tell the difference? Enter the appraisers. These are supposed experts who can help decipher these things and who can be trusted because of their independence. As with the above, sometimes this works great but there are a lot of appraisers out there who are less than reliable, who are perusing their own agendas or who are simply unqualified or lack the tools for the task at hand. There are no license requirements to become an appraiser and most are employees or even owners of the very retailers that are being mistrusted in the first place. It’s a very circular system.

Enter Pricescope and similar forums. This provides an opportunity for a reality check by lots of people who have been down this road before. This works pretty well but now you’re relying on anonymous people of unknown qualifications who not only don’t know your preferences but who have never actually seen the stone in question.

The answer is a tough balance of the above and it will be different for each customer. My advice is first to understand the problem. You MUST extend some trust to someone and doing this wisely is not a gemological question. The advice of Ronald Reagan to ‘trust but verify’ is well founded. Start with the retailer, either online or on the street as you prefer. Listen carefully to what they are telling you and cross check it against other sources like a lab report, appraiser or your own observations. This is what the lab is for. This is what the idealscope is for. In many cases this is what the appraiser is for. If you find that they are lying to you, don’t just ask for another stone, find another dealer. The same thing applies to labs, appraisers, astrologers and any other experts you want to use. When you find a credible and trustworthy source, trust them.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[DiamondDumbie]

Date: 7/15/2007 11:21:51 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
great deconstruction Neil

There is an objective test for $25 - ideal-scope

And a quantitative test for free - get a 3D sarin scan of the stone, post it here and we will run a DiamCalc light return score for you. You should expect this cut to range between 60% and 75% of the light return of a Tolkowsky round

Thank you for the offer. I intend to do this with any diamond I intend to purchase. As an engineer, I can relate with almost all your threads and videos.

I do not need to know my diamond is perfect. However, as an analytical person, I need specific measurable results to validate the diamond characteristics. Since I have no experience with diamonds, it is a form of comfort that the test results validate what the seller is claiming. I do not expect the Cut test results to show a poor cut if the seller is claiming the cut is Ideal (best cut performance). I would expect a poor cut to test poorly and a superior cut to test great. If I see otherwise, then I will look to validate the test results or the seller’s credibility.

 

[DiamondDumbie]

Date: 7/16/2007 8:28:05 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Working,

It’s only as complicated as you want to make it and the Internet has made it easy to carry this to an extreme. For most customers diamonds are a blind item that is insanely expensive. In the case of bridal purchases it’s usually the most expensive thing the customer has ever bought with the possible exception of their car and they desperately want something to point at to indicate why one is so more expensive than another. The only reason they are making the purchase at all is a fabricated social pressure that this is what guys have to do to get married. They don’t want a diamond at all, they want the girl. Without experience it’s difficult to tell the difference from one to the next and the experience is difficult to get.

It ends up being an issue of trust and it’s hard to know who to trust. The retailer? The lab? The appraiser? Pricescope? Idealscope? Back when I got into this business the answer was simple. The retailer. If you didn’t trust them you found someone else. Chances are good that this is how your grandparents did it and it was a pretty easy approach. Often it worked pretty well but there are obvious opportunities for problems and abuses. Modern customers are far more cynical than their grandparents used to be and people here use the term ‘b&m’ with a bit of a sneer as a place where dummies shop to pay too much. It’s easy to find online offers that quote cheaper prices and that are telling you to trust a 3rd party lab. The retailer is interchangeable. As long as the stone is ‘certified’, you’re safe.

Everyone who has spent much time here has heard advice that this isn’t correct, that the brand of the lab matters and that cut, which mostly isn’t discussed on the lab reports, is king. So how do you tell the difference? Enter the appraisers. These are supposed experts who can help decipher these things and who can be trusted because of their independence. As with the above, sometimes this works great but there are a lot of appraisers out there who are less than reliable, who are perusing their own agendas or who are simply unqualified or lack the tools for the task at hand. There are no license requirements to become an appraiser and most are employees or even owners of the very retailers that are being mistrusted in the first place. It’s a very circular system.

Enter Pricescope and similar forums. This provides an opportunity for a reality check by lots of people who have been down this road before. This works pretty well but now you’re relying on anonymous people of unknown qualifications who not only don’t know your preferences but who have never actually seen the stone in question.

The answer is a tough balance of the above and it will be different for each customer. My advice is first to understand the problem. You MUST extend some trust to someone and doing this wisely is not a gemological question. The advice of Ronald Reagan to ‘trust but verify’ is well founded. Start with the retailer, either online or on the street as you prefer. Listen carefully to what they are telling you and cross check it against other sources like a lab report, appraiser or your own observations. This is what the lab is for. This is what the idealscope is for. In many cases this is what the appraiser is for. If you find that they are lying to you, don’t just ask for another stone, find another dealer. The same thing applies to labs, appraisers, astrologers and any other experts you want to use. When you find a credible and trustworthy source, trust them.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Well said! I agree with all of it. As for trust, unfortunately we live in a different era than our grandparents. And unfortunately I have no experience with buying diamonds so I cannot lean on someone who has established my trust and confidence. Once I do, this process will be easier the next time.

 

[Nicrez]

Date: 7/16/2007 10:16:28 AM
Author: DiamondDumbie

Date: 7/15/2007 11:21:51 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
great deconstruction Neil

There is an objective test for $25 - ideal-scope

And a quantitative test for free - get a 3D sarin scan of the stone, post it here and we will run a DiamCalc light return score for you. You should expect this cut to range between 60% and 75% of the light return of a Tolkowsky round

Thank you for the offer. I intend to do this with any diamond I intend to purchase. As an engineer, I can relate with almost all your threads and videos.

I do not need to know my diamond is perfect. However, as an analytical person, I need specific measurable results to validate the diamond characteristics. Since I have no experience with diamonds, it is a form of comfort that the test results validate what the seller is claiming. I do not expect the Cut test results to show a poor cut if the seller is claiming the cut is Ideal (best cut performance). I would expect a poor cut to test poorly and a superior cut to test great. If I see otherwise, then I will look to validate the test results or the seller’s credibility.

DD I completely understand your frustration, which is why I say, save yourself the heartache of reinventing the wheel. Buy a H&A round brilliant. Anything abberant from a RB will be in the undefineable (or hard ot define) realm of art. You want precision, get a stone with known parameters and concrete standards.

The diamond industry is not just bridal. I say this, because the 90% of purchases made for diamonds are in B&M stores. The other 10% are online and private consultantcy. Diamonds are a luxury. As a luxury, they are NOT commodities. Many people want diamonds in table cuts, and princess cuts, and all other fancies, and not just ONE. Imagine trying to optimize cut quality on a graduated diamond necklace of 40+ diamonds...or the melee of a brooch with diamonds under 10pts! There are too many factors (including the cutters and preferences and trends) to be able to come up with measurable and defined standards for all cuts. I personally deal with Old cuts from an era where color, clarity and even cut where not even a consideration. No one EVER asked. It was a diamond, it was large, it was set well and you liked the jewelry and if you had the money you bought it. I would certainly never walk into an art gallery, look at a painting and ask if the paint was a certain brand. Kind of defeats the purpose.

With a round brilliant (especially H&A) you will be in the company of fellow cut quality experts who have studied and examined light performance. I am going to bet you won''t find better measurable light return than on those stones. I think that would likely be your best bet, and would allow you the comfort of knowing your hard earned money has concrete tests and proof that the light return is optimal. Good luck!

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 7/16/2007 11:13:46 AM
Author: Nicrez
Buy a H&A round brilliant. Anything abberant from a RB will be in the undefineable (or hard ot define) realm of art. You want precision, get a stone with known parameters and concrete standards. With a round brilliant (especially H&A) you will be in the company of fellow cut quality experts who have studied and examined light performance. I am going to bet you won''t find better measurable light return than on those stones. I think that would likely be your best bet, and would allow you the comfort of knowing your hard earned money has concrete tests and proof that the light return is optimal. Good luck!

Well said, Nicrez. Agree totally!

I mean *seriously* ... how soon do you want to propose, DD?

I''ve been waiting for AGS-0 Square Emeralds for two years now. It''s been in the works for much longer ... and STILL NOT AVAILABLE COMMERCIALLY (at least that I know of).

The Diamond biz is fueled by desire. Rounds are the #1 seller (by far) ... then I guess AGS picked Princesses to work on ... now we''re waiting for Square Emeralds ... I would say that if it''s been a two year wait for those, ... can''t IMAGINE how long it would be before they even considered figuring out "ideal" proportions for a little-known propritary cut like Tycoon. Perhaps never ... as they haven''t really caught on and will quite likely go out of production ... as many other proprietary cuts have over the years. The industry (IMO) tends to ignore these little players and hope they go away...NOT jump right in and test the heck out of them to see if someone has stumbled on "The Best Cut Ever".

 

[diamondbling]

Dear Diamond Dumbie:

I am dying to know what your final decision was - did you purchase the Tycoon? I have read all the posts today on Tycoon diamonds. I just became aware of these diamonds today. I (or should I say, my husband) is commissioning a ring to be made for me. I have two different designs from two very different jewelers. One design calls for (3) 1 carat round diamonds lined up over a wide pave like underband. The other design consists of (3) 1 carat Tycoon rectangular diamonds set above a specialized thick band of baguettes that looks like cubes. This second choice is not my usual style, but I was immediatley taken with the faceting of the tycoon. It amazed me to see something so clear it looked like glass and I enjoy seeing the cuts of the diamond by just looking into it. If I decide on this design, I will be taking the diamonds outside before they are set, to see how the sun plays off them.

We are looking to spend about $45,000 on this bawble, so my number one rule is "that it has to be a one of a kind design". I want something unique - not your run of the mill ring. The tycoon gives me that. My number two rule is that it has to have enough "bling" that I will never tire of it, and that it will not start looking small, because, unfortunately all diamonds do seem to shrink after awhile. We are in our early 40''s, so this ring will not be replaced or diamonds "upgraded".

I also don''t wear alot of jewelry (only my wedding ring and once in a while a 3 diamond (1/4 carat each) ring I received after the birth of our 3rd child) so I want this piece to be
exquisite. Because I am sure unless it is a bracelet, earrings or perhaps a watch, my husband won''t be purchasing jewlery for me for decades, he''s choking already and will probably be choking for another 20 years!

In regards to your earlier postings about size and the tycoon - go for it. I felt your price was very fair. Diamonds under 3 carats can never be to big - and believe me, there will be comparisons made among your friends. If everyone else has 2 carats, then get her that, at least, if not a little bigger. The beauty of dealing with a reputable source, if she really doesn''t like it, you can return it together and pick out something she does prefer. Don''t get all caught up in the "ideal" techy stuff. You are dealing with a unique cut so a lot of the normal rules do not apply. It truly only matters if you and your future wife like it. Remember, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If there was a "perfect" cut out there - that''''s all that would be on the market. "Perfect" is what is right for you and your future wife, nothing else!


I can''t wait to hear what you decided to do!!