shape
carat
color
clarity

Two diamonds enter, only one leaves... (Ring of life/death pt 2)

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,127
I could get a 1.92 I SI1 on WF for ~$18K, but vs this I SI1, I gain some better light performance, I nudge down appreciably under 2ct (a target/requirement for the recipient), and I trade these inclusions for other non-ideal inclusions.
There are no 1.95's out there... believe me, it's been what I've been looking for from day one lol

Help me understand this....1.92 is too small, but 1.95+ is cool?

If you aren't aware, carat weight is a function of length, width & depth. The exact proportions of each stone will change those elements. Below is the exact formula in case you are curious:

average length x average width x depth x 0.0061 = estimated carat weight

WF ACA 1.918 I-VS2 @ $17,237 wire

I think we'd agree, this stone performs like a champ and has all the pedigree to prove it. Based on your comments above, your main reason for rejection is size.

So let's have some fun.

Below are the dimensions (L x W x D) of the two stones you originally picked and the "too small" 1.918 that I linked above.
  • JA 2.01 I-SI1 = 8.08 x 8.10 x 4.99mm
  • JA 2.01 H-VVS2 = 8.10 x 8.15 x 4.90mm
  • WF 1.918 I-VS2 = 7.97 x 7.97 x 4.92mm
While not significant notice how the 2.01 flat top (large table, shallow crown) H-VVS2 is slightly larger than the other 2.01 I-SI1? That's because it's a fat squatty stone. It has more carat weight pushed out in width instead of in depth. The stone won't be as lively but also because of the c/p angle relationship you are seeing leakage in the IS image.

Also notice how the 1.918 actually has more depth in a smaller spread (LxW) than what the 2.01 flat top has? Granted, not much more depth, 4.92 vs 4.90. Despite the smaller spread, the 1.918 has more depth because it's maintaining a better c/p angle relationship. The stone is cut to maximize light return and not have leakage.

When you start to cheat, performance degrades. Unfortunately, it's a greed driven world so cutters are incentivized to cut for weight (profit$$) and not beauty. This gets especially true when you are on the verge of a magic carat weight. Fudge a little this way or that way and we go from 1.98 to 2.00 or 2.01 and the profits boost. Most consumers are none the smarter, so right or wrong it flys.

But back on topic. In regards to the dimensions of all 3 stones, let's agree that the JA 2.01 I-SI1 would be a fairly representative size of a 2 carat stone. With that said what is the true difference?
  • JA 2.01 I-SI1 = 8.08 x 8.10 spread, or 8.09 average
  • WF 1.918 I-VS2 = 7.93 x 7.97 spread, or 7.95 average
  • Difference = 8.09 - 7.95 = 0.14mm
So what does 0.14mm equate to in the real world?
  • 0.14mm = 0.005511811 inches
  • 1/128th inch = 0.0078125 inches
  • 1/256th inch = 0.00390625 inches
  • 1/192nd inch = 0.00520833 inches
  • To put this in comparison, most rulers go down to 1/16", maybe 1/32" if you have a fancy pants model. Now think about how small that is. And 1/192nd is about 3 magnitudes further down the scale.
  • On average, a human hair is roughly 7mm thick. So in reality, the 1.918 is about 2 hairs lesser in diameter than the 2.01.
Now are you going to tell me that you or your girl could identify that difference IRL? I understand the certification may say 1.918. You could have a mental block. But your eyes aren't going to be able to appreciate the difference.

What your eyes likely will appreciate is a stone that is a complete & total sparkle bomb. Your (future) wallet is going to appreciate having bought from a vendor with a killer upgrade program. You and your wife are going to appreciate all the compliments given about the beauty of your stone. Not to mention, when stones produce maximum light return, they reflect EDGE TO EDGE, making them appear larger even in less than ideal light.

 

Avatar345

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
126
I’m neither a dude nor did I specifically mean an exact stone, I did not check whether he picked a grey stone sorry:))) All I mean is generally speaking please pick an ideal cut stone over these. Trust me in the long run you will Thank yourself a thousand times. I’m just saying a pancake for an engagement ring yikes no. For anything else if dirt cheap I might not say this but it is not dirt cheap either. Get the real deal as this is such an important occassion.

Haha no I didn't think you were a dude :)

I was just being familiar in that respect. I honestly love everything about the stone Sledge picked - size, price, optics - but that tone throws me. And Sledge hadn't seen that aspect when he(?) recommended it, but it *is* slightly grey, and it kills it for me

I know cut is king... believe me. All I'm trying to say is that for me personally, I'm ok with a Duke lol. The cut on this stone is not horrific, and the light return, I daresay, is decent. BUT I'm still here wrangling with everybody so I'm not deaf to your entreaties either :)
 

Avatar345

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
126
Help me understand this....1.92 is too small, but 1.95+ is cool?

If you aren't aware, carat weight is a function of length, width & depth. The exact proportions of each stone will change those elements. Below is the exact formula in case you are curious:

average length x average width x depth x 0.0061 = estimated carat weight

WF ACA 1.918 I-VS2 @ $17,237 wire

I think we'd agree, this stone performs like a champ and has all the pedigree to prove it. Based on your comments above, your main reason for rejection is size.

So let's have some fun.

Below are the dimensions (L x W x D) of the two stones you originally picked and the "too small" 1.918 that I linked above.
  • JA 2.01 I-SI1 = 8.08 x 8.10 x 4.99mm
  • JA 2.01 H-VVS2 = 8.10 x 8.15 x 4.90mm
  • WF 1.918 I-VS2 = 7.97 x 7.97 x 4.92mm
While not significant notice how the 2.01 flat top (large table, shallow crown) H-VVS2 is slightly larger than the other 2.01 I-SI1? That's because it's a fat squatty stone. It has more carat weight pushed out in width instead of in depth. The stone won't be as lively but also because of the c/p angle relationship you are seeing leakage in the IS image.

Also notice how the 1.918 actually has more depth in a smaller spread (LxW) than what the 2.01 flat top has? Granted, not much more depth, 4.92 vs 4.90. Despite the smaller spread, the 1.918 has more depth because it's maintaining a better c/p angle relationship. The stone is cut to maximize light return and not have leakage.

When you start to cheat, performance degrades. Unfortunately, it's a greed driven world so cutters are incentivized to cut for weight (profit$$) and not beauty. This gets especially true when you are on the verge of a magic carat weight. Fudge a little this way or that way and we go from 1.98 to 2.00 or 2.01 and the profits boost. Most consumers are none the smarter, so right or wrong it flys.

But back on topic. In regards to the dimensions of all 3 stones, let's agree that the JA 2.01 I-SI1 would be a fairly representative size of a 2 carat stone. With that said what is the true difference?
  • JA 2.01 I-SI1 = 8.08 x 8.10 spread, or 8.09 average
  • WF 1.918 I-VS2 = 7.93 x 7.97 spread, or 7.95 average
  • Difference = 8.09 - 7.95 = 0.14mm
So what does 0.14mm equate to in the real world?
  • 0.14mm = 0.005511811 inches
  • 1/128th inch = 0.0078125 inches
  • 1/256th inch = 0.00390625 inches
  • 1/192nd inch = 0.00520833 inches
  • To put this in comparison, most rulers go down to 1/16", maybe 1/32" if you have a fancy pants model. Now think about how small that is. And 1/192nd is about 3 magnitudes further down the scale.
  • On average, a human hair is roughly 7mm thick. So in reality, the 1.918 is about 2 hairs lesser in diameter than the 2.01.
Now are you going to tell me that you or your girl could identify that difference IRL? I understand the certification may say 1.918. You could have a mental block. But your eyes aren't going to be able to appreciate the difference.

What your eyes likely will appreciate is a stone that is a complete & total sparkle bomb. Your (future) wallet is going to appreciate having bought from a vendor with a killer upgrade program. You and your wife are going to appreciate all the compliments given about the beauty of your stone. Not to mention, when stones produce maximum light return, they reflect EDGE TO EDGE, making them appear larger even in less than ideal light.


Let's focus on that "cutters are incentivized" comment for a minute, because it's pertinent here. What we're talking about with the WF stone is a stone that is priced at a per/ct price of 52% *higher* than the RapNet average right now for a stone in that weight/clarity category, in sole consideration for its cut. By the same token, the stone I've chosen is 5% *under* the RapNet average for a stone in this size and clarity category. Not only that, it's priced 25% under that WF stone on a per/ct basis... and that's with crossing a size category!

When we're talking about future upgrades, we're talking about that 2ct barrier as one that will, at some point, be crossed. And when that happens all the nominal savings we're discussing now about 1.92 vs 2.01 and spreads and such will be moot, and we'll just be looking at apples-to-apples comparisons of what those prices are then above that marker.

So, in that context, on a relative per carat basis, we're talking about a significant premium in this case to achieve that super ideal cut. I can appreciate that premium. I know why it exists. I respect it. And I understand that that is the rarest of all qualities that a diamond can attain.

BUT. I hope I have made my point in terms of relative costs and the very specific premiums being allocated to achieve that extra bit of perfection in cut alone.

If it were me, my diamond, for myself, I would be going with a K or J colored ACA. That's me and my sensibilities and my aesthetics. As you picked up on though, this diamond is not for me (obviously). If I were doing something for me, I'd be buying myself a new car lol. But I'm here instead ;-)

Now - with that being said, it's all about what do I value the premium at for a super ideal cut on top of not only a 3-Ex diamond, but one that is actually well proportioned and has good light return. Is that step or two higher into the 0.10%, 0.01% of diamond strata worth that premium to me? And forget that even... worth it to my girlfriend vs simply being able to say "this is 2 carats"? So... that's me bringing this forum back down to earth. :)

I agree with where you're coming from, and I value the back-and-forth. But much earlier on I suggested to my gf a stone in the 1.75 to 1.9 range, and her facial expression said it all. 1.95... she was ok with. 2.00 is what she wants. I care and know so much more about cuts and diamonds and the rest of it than she ever will... than 99.9% of the population on this planet ever will. I started off looking at lab diamonds a month ago and now here I am reading industry news daily, studiously memorizing all the lessons of Beyond4C's, checking super ideal inventory at WF, BGD... Victor Canera and HPD to a lesser extent... and staring at rotating diamond videos on James Allen all day long.

Ok so. I hope I've proven myself to be an educated consumer when it comes to diamonds. I didn't come here because I just wandered in, I came here because I was asking for some advice on Reddit, and found the acumen generally lacking ahead of a not insignificant purchase.

Well - that's my story! :cool2:
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,127
I honestly love everything about the stone Sledge picked - size, price, optics - but that tone throws me. And Sledge hadn't seen that aspect when he(?) recommended it, but it *is* slightly grey, and it kills it for me

Nah, I'm just a 6' tall chick with a really bitchin' beard and size 13 finger. :eek2::lol-2:

Thanks for acknowledging I hadn't saw the video when I posted that stone. I was wondering how I was going to get the tire marks of that bus off my forehead, lol.

For real, I took some screen shots of 2.01 against the 2.27. I agree there is a tint difference. Not sure I agree it's grey but either way I get what you are saying. However, look a bit closer. The background of the 2.27 is also a bit different hue. I'm not saying or eluding the differences in lighting or background creates all the difference, but I do think it could be a contributing factor.

Also, keep in mind it's not exactly uncommon for AGS to have a little softer color grading than GIA. Enter HPD since they now offer 3 certs on a single stone.

https://hpdiamonds.com/diamonds/9

Capture4.PNG

And then when you factor in human error in the grading process and a few things could be going on here. What if the 2.27 was a soft I (near J)? And the 2.01 is a high I, near H? How does the background factor play in? No excuses. But all this could be going on to create some of the difference.

Capture1.PNG
Capture2.PNG
Capture3.PNG

Borrowed from VC's page on undertones.

original-GIA-Color-Grade-Boundries-for-Undertones-and-Fancy-Colors.jpg

Ref. 1-1- Two GIA Certified Identical "I" Color Diamonds. Left; typical yellow undertone, Right; with a gray undertone.

original-Diamonds-with-Yellow-and-Gray-Color-Undertones.jpg
 

Kaycee2018

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 14, 2018
Messages
877

Lookinagain

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 15, 2014
Messages
1,382
Your (future) wallet is going to appreciate having bought from a vendor with a killer upgrade program.

I don't believe the upgrade/trade up policy applies to virtual stones, if that is what you are referring to, so I wouldn't factor that in.

The purchase of any Whiteflash in-house certified diamond automatically qualifies you for our 100% Lifetime Trade Up Guarantee. We are so confident in the quality and value of the diamonds we buy for our stock that we offer this valuable benefit on all diamonds in our three in-house categories: A CUT ABOVE®, Expert Selection, and Premium Select.
 

Avatar345

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
126
@Avatar345 I completely understand your situation, but there is no need to limit yourself to these two options. Have you seen these? You will need to request advanced images (and in some cases, reports), but these seem like they could be strong contenders.



Thanks Kaycee, I appreciate the options/thinking! :)

I don't know much about these two players, but well regarded? I'm guessing that the affinity cut is like the TrueHearts equivelant, is that right? Or is it closer to a truer super ideal? If they're cool with me asking for scopes and pics without it being too much trouble for them, happy to explore them
 

Avatar345

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
126
Nah, I'm just a 6' tall chick with a really bitchin' beard and size 13 finger. :eek2::lol-2:

Thanks for acknowledging I hadn't saw the video when I posted that stone. I was wondering how I was going to get the tire marks of that bus off my forehead, lol.

For real, I took some screen shots of 2.01 against the 2.27. I agree there is a tint difference. Not sure I agree it's grey but either way I get what you are saying. However, look a bit closer. The background of the 2.27 is also a bit different hue. I'm not saying or eluding the differences in lighting or background creates all the difference, but I do think it could be a contributing factor.

Also, keep in mind it's not exactly uncommon for AGS to have a little softer color grading than GIA. Enter HPD since they now offer 3 certs on a single stone.

https://hpdiamonds.com/diamonds/9

Capture4.PNG

And then when you factor in human error in the grading process and a few things could be going on here. What if the 2.27 was a soft I (near J)? And the 2.01 is a high I, near H? How does the background factor play in? No excuses. But all this could be going on to create some of the difference.

Capture1.PNG
Capture2.PNG
Capture3.PNG

Borrowed from VC's page on undertones.

original-GIA-Color-Grade-Boundries-for-Undertones-and-Fancy-Colors.jpg

Ref. 1-1- Two GIA Certified Identical "I" Color Diamonds. Left; typical yellow undertone, Right; with a gray undertone.

original-Diamonds-with-Yellow-and-Gray-Color-Undertones.jpg

Haha Sledge like I said earlier on, I was glad when you joined the convo just based on some of your previous post history which I'd come across incidentally - I appreciate a true expert weighing in whether they're telling me what I want to hear or not lol! :)

No no, I knew that you hadn't seen the video yet because it wasn't any of us that could have seen it until Txborn posted that JA link. I was honestly excited about that stone otherwise, and it demonstrated that I hadn't exhausted the 'Net's inventory to the extent I thought I had. And that's the other thing... generally, I've *only* been considering stones from JamesAllen due to their video quality, as well as WF and BGD's in house inventory - everything else is just so so hard to really get a feel. I know there's a huge stock of attractive 'shadow' inventory out there that's just such a gamble to roll the dice on. It's a tough industry!
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,127
I don't believe the upgrade/trade up policy applies to virtual stones, if that is what you are referring to, so I wouldn't factor that in.

The purchase of any Whiteflash in-house certified diamond automatically qualifies you for our 100% Lifetime Trade Up Guarantee. We are so confident in the quality and value of the diamonds we buy for our stock that we offer this valuable benefit on all diamonds in our three in-house categories: A CUT ABOVE®, Expert Selection, and Premium Select.

You are correct that WF’s trade policy doesn’t cover their virtual stones. Only the ACA, ES and PS stones. And 50% trade value on designer bands.

With that said, you have to consider the entire content of my post and not just the tidbit you quoted. In the upper part of the post I was making a point the 1.918 ACA was a pretty solid choice. I was no longer advocating for the 2.27 AGS000 virtual stone, as the OP seemed to have dismissed it for color issues. So my comments were directed at the 1.918, which the policy would apply to since it’s an ACA.

Sorry I wasn’t more clear. Good thinking clarifying for the masses. :cool2:
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,127
Thanks Kaycee, I appreciate the options/thinking! :)

I don't know much about these two players, but well regarded? I'm guessing that the affinity cut is like the TrueHearts equivelant, is that right? Or is it closer to a truer super ideal? If they're cool with me asking for scopes and pics without it being too much trouble for them, happy to explore them

Adiamor doesn’t always have advanced images. You can request but many times they are the mercy of their suppliers. The good news is that’s likely a virtual inventory stone so search the GIA cert number and you may find an alternate vendor has it.

B2C can probably access it as well. Also IDJ in NYC. Both of them deal with virtual stones and can ship in and do advanced images so you can make a final decision. Both are good vendors.

In fact you should reach out to Yeukitel @ IDJ and tell him what you are looking for and you want a PS quality stone. He is used to our picky requirements and has a knack of finding killer stones for really tight budgets. It may not be super ideal but it will likely be very good.
 

sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,127
Just wondering, what about giving Yekutiel at IDJ a call. He can provide all the images and may be able to find something for you.

LOL I was writing out my post when yours came through. GMTA.
 
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sledge

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
5,127
Let's focus on that "cutters are incentivized" comment for a minute, because it's pertinent here. What we're talking about with the WF stone is a stone that is priced at a per/ct price of 52% *higher* than the RapNet average right now for a stone in that weight/clarity category, in sole consideration for its cut. By the same token, the stone I've chosen is 5% *under* the RapNet average for a stone in this size and clarity category. Not only that, it's priced 25% under that WF stone on a per/ct basis... and that's with crossing a size category!

Have you considered that maybe the stone you have chosen is 5% under RapNet because of the knot? Basic economics apply. Prices drop to move a product that buyers find less attractive.

Sometimes if a stone is rare enough, it will warrant the risk. Otherwise, the risk is hardly worthwhile as there is ample supply.

So the question you should be asking is if you are getting the steal of a lifetime, or a heavily discounted stone that others find less desirable and won't pay full market value to own? The answer determines the true value of the stone, regardless of the dollars spent acquiring it.

On the flip side, you have a super ideal that is priced above RapNet. Many people's first thoughts are that super ideal vendors are greedy. They might be, I don't see their profit sheets, but I don't really think it's that simplistic. To cut an ideal stone means more rough is wasted. Also, more cut time with more skilled workers who get paid more per hour is required. Not to mention additional machining costs, utilities, etc.

All those factors equate to a higher baseline cost. Now pretend everyone makes 15% above cost on a diamond. Should the super ideal vendor that created a superior product be expected to take less profit to meet RapNet? Shouldn't there be an adjustment recognizing that sacrifice? Much like there is an adjustment for color, clarity and carat weight increases? What about the fact it can achieve AGS000 status, whereas other stones selling for average RapNet prices can't?

More importantly, why should cut quality be dismissed as a reason to increase/decrease price? After all, regardless what color, clarity or carat weight we feel is best, prices adjust according to what others have determined to be best.

I am all about you getting the best bang for your buck. Unfortunately I think I disagree that less dollars equals the best deal. I think more factors have to be considered.


Capture.PNG

When we're talking about future upgrades, we're talking about that 2ct barrier as one that will, at some point, be crossed. And when that happens all the nominal savings we're discussing now about 1.92 vs 2.01 and spreads and such will be moot, and we'll just be looking at apples-to-apples comparisons of what those prices are then above that marker.

So, in that context, on a relative per carat basis, we're talking about a significant premium in this case to achieve that super ideal cut. I can appreciate that premium. I know why it exists. I respect it. And I understand that that is the rarest of all qualities that a diamond can attain.

I do agree with you that as you continue to go up in size, the cost gap between a super ideal and decent triple X will continue to grow.

However, it's not quite as simplistic as you have laid out either.

If you buy from JA, their trade policy is 100% of original price with the condition you spend 2x the original amount. So trade up 1 = $26k. Trade up 2 = $52k. Trade up 3 = $104k. Those are minimum amounts.

BGD offers 100% trade value, but requires you upgrade 2 of the following each time you upgrade: color, clarity or carat weight. Again, starting in lower color & clarity, isn't a huge ordeal when you start upgrading, but by the time you hit trade 2 or 3 it could be a real issue. And I'm not picking on BGD. That is where I bought my wife's stone. With the premise she would keep for sentimental value and we'd start fresh. So I dismissed upgrade value at purchase time.

Part of what I really like about WF and HPD's trade policy is it makes it really easy to trade stones. You get 100% of your original value with no strings. You simply spend $1 or more than your original purchase. That's more than fair. It allows you to upgrade at your pace and never get stuck on certain dollar amounts.

But what I really like about it is how you can "hedge" risk. Say you buy the 1.92 from WF and your girl just can't live with it. A few months later a 1.99 rolls in and for $1,000 you can upgrade. Boom, done deal. Then 6 months later she feels the I color is too warm. Lo and behold a 1.94 G is available. That is one an ES or PS so price is almost equal to just swap. Boom, done deal. Better color without spending more money.

Obviously all fake examples, but in that trade program you have a lot of flexibility.

I bought my wife a BGD Blue H-VS2. We have determined when the next upgrade comes a D or E color is likely on the radar, maybe an F. Because her setting is custom & a unique design, going up in size much requires that be re-done in its entirety. I am good with VS2 clarity and going VS1+ with the color bump gets very expensive. So upgrading becomes more complex for us. Whereas, if I had went with HPD or WF, I could have upgraded a few times (yes, I frequently check their stock for candidates, lol).

Your mileage may vary.

I agree with where you're coming from, and I value the back-and-forth. But much earlier on I suggested to my gf a stone in the 1.75 to 1.9 range, and her facial expression said it all. 1.95... she was ok with. 2.00 is what she wants.

That's when you remind her the hot blonde that makes your Starbucks coffee would love to get a 1.75. :lol-2:

Seriously, my guess is in that moment she heard 1.75 and that is what caused the facial expression. Almost like you shocked her in a bad way, and she probably never heard the 1.90 part.

I'd be willing to bet $100 she couldn't tell a 1.92 from a 1.95 unless she looked at the cert, with the caveat being both are ideal cut stones with similar proportions. No flat top substitutes, lol.

Either way, it's her ring and her dream. And I'm here to spend your money, lol. Maybe we can find a better solution that hits closer to her needs.
 

Avatar345

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 23, 2021
Messages
126
Have you considered that maybe the stone you have chosen is 5% under RapNet because of the knot? Basic economics apply. Prices drop to move a product that buyers find less attractive.

Sometimes if a stone is rare enough, it will warrant the risk. Otherwise, the risk is hardly worthwhile as there is ample supply.

So the question you should be asking is if you are getting the steal of a lifetime, or a heavily discounted stone that others find less desirable and won't pay full market value to own? The answer determines the true value of the stone, regardless of the dollars spent acquiring it.

On the flip side, you have a super ideal that is priced above RapNet. Many people's first thoughts are that super ideal vendors are greedy. They might be, I don't see their profit sheets, but I don't really think it's that simplistic. To cut an ideal stone means more rough is wasted. Also, more cut time with more skilled workers who get paid more per hour is required. Not to mention additional machining costs, utilities, etc.

All those factors equate to a higher baseline cost. Now pretend everyone makes 15% above cost on a diamond. Should the super ideal vendor that created a superior product be expected to take less profit to meet RapNet? Shouldn't there be an adjustment recognizing that sacrifice? Much like there is an adjustment for color, clarity and carat weight increases? What about the fact it can achieve AGS000 status, whereas other stones selling for average RapNet prices can't?

More importantly, why should cut quality be dismissed as a reason to increase/decrease price? After all, regardless what color, clarity or carat weight we feel is best, prices adjust according to what others have determined to be best.

I am all about you getting the best bang for your buck. Unfortunately I think I disagree that less dollars equals the best deal. I think more factors have to be considered.


Capture.PNG



I do agree with you that as you continue to go up in size, the cost gap between a super ideal and decent triple X will continue to grow.

However, it's not quite as simplistic as you have laid out either.

If you buy from JA, their trade policy is 100% of original price with the condition you spend 2x the original amount. So trade up 1 = $26k. Trade up 2 = $52k. Trade up 3 = $104k. Those are minimum amounts.

BGD offers 100% trade value, but requires you upgrade 2 of the following each time you upgrade: color, clarity or carat weight. Again, starting in lower color & clarity, isn't a huge ordeal when you start upgrading, but by the time you hit trade 2 or 3 it could be a real issue. And I'm not picking on BGD. That is where I bought my wife's stone. With the premise she would keep for sentimental value and we'd start fresh. So I dismissed upgrade value at purchase time.

Part of what I really like about WF and HPD's trade policy is it makes it really easy to trade stones. You get 100% of your original value with no strings. You simply spend $1 or more than your original purchase. That's more than fair. It allows you to upgrade at your pace and never get stuck on certain dollar amounts.

But what I really like about it is how you can "hedge" risk. Say you buy the 1.92 from WF and your girl just can't live with it. A few months later a 1.99 rolls in and for $1,000 you can upgrade. Boom, done deal. Then 6 months later she feels the I color is too warm. Lo and behold a 1.94 G is available. That is one an ES or PS so price is almost equal to just swap. Boom, done deal. Better color without spending more money.

Obviously all fake examples, but in that trade program you have a lot of flexibility.

I bought my wife a BGD Blue H-VS2. We have determined when the next upgrade comes a D or E color is likely on the radar, maybe an F. Because her setting is custom & a unique design, going up in size much requires that be re-done in its entirety. I am good with VS2 clarity and going VS1+ with the color bump gets very expensive. So upgrading becomes more complex for us. Whereas, if I had went with HPD or WF, I could have upgraded a few times (yes, I frequently check their stock for candidates, lol).

Your mileage may vary.



That's when you remind her the hot blonde that makes your Starbucks coffee would love to get a 1.75. :lol-2:

Seriously, my guess is in that moment she heard 1.75 and that is what caused the facial expression. Almost like you shocked her in a bad way, and she probably never heard the 1.90 part.

I'd be willing to bet $100 she couldn't tell a 1.92 from a 1.95 unless she looked at the cert, with the caveat being both are ideal cut stones with similar proportions. No flat top substitutes, lol.

Either way, it's her ring and her dream. And I'm here to spend your money, lol. Maybe we can find a better solution that hits closer to her needs.

No no no, for sure that knot inclusion is almost wholly responsible for the discount the stone trades at, no question - and I have mixed feelings on that. I think I could get the knot covered by the prong, mitigating its risk/presence, but I mean for sure it weighs.

And I completely agree on the risk-hedging of a WhiteFlash or Brian Gavin diamond. I *love* those upgrade policies, and the idea that if diamonds were to come down in price for instance, I could move laterally into a functionally 'higher' stone, or if prices were to appreciate, that super ideal cut would serve as just that much more of a differentiator/point of appreciation.... I'm totally into it.

When I was emphasizing the RapNet pricing it wasn't to cast WF or BGD as overpriced; actually I think nothing could be further from the truth. If anything, I consider them as offering the 'true' diamond experience, and being priced accordingly. I hope they do well financially, but I don't assume for a second that the extra effort into cutting/polishing and the physical inventory held, customer service provided, comes cheap. No I think they're well priced/valued, and I think having a cert with their logo on it would be a massive value add in any resale/trade situation. And in an insurance situation as well. So it's really just more something I was bringing up as a marker to gauge where I started this search from (generic lab), and where I've come to, and whether I'm in a situation where my gf would ever benefit/gain from that extra step up - it'd almost be more for myself, as a point of pride or to know that amongst the diamond "rabble," this is a stone that has an actual name associated with it. It's sort of like the Tiffany-diamond equivalent from yesteryear for the in-the-know set - I absolutely think it means something and comes with real tangible value associated.

You're right that I should never have brought up the 1.75ct, but it's because I had found a great H colored stone (you'd be proud of the proportions lol) and the savings of course... and that's pretty close to 2, right? Well, so that sunk that thought experiment real quick. :p

And you actually got your wife my own dream diamond situation - I love love love the whole idea/concept of the Blue line at BGD. For a discount to their regular H&A you get a stone that you know won't be negatively effected by fluorescence and... I love fluorescence! I chatted with a BGD rep last week asking if they had any stones closer to 2ct on the way any time in the near future in the Blue line; alas, nothing yet, and their inventory is thin up at that weight right now (I guess due to relative popularity?), but they should get on that!

The $1,000 incremental trade up scenario to a slightly larger stone isn't one I'd thought of before, and it bears consideration. There's a 1.85 H on BGD that maybe I would consider in that scenario as well; it really does red-line me in terms of the initial size, but there's even a bit more latitude to transfer into my Blue dreams later on, and carat size and clarity both will be easy beats there.

Anyway it's not easy; fundamentally I think I've found a good stone to start with here at the price, save for the knot. But yes the JA upgrade policy is... not great. And I think that's due in part to the morass of lab created diamonds, though I suppose Blue Nile isn't any better.

I may reach out to IDJ like you guys recommended as well to see what's up/possible, and either way I've found a new lifetime interest/hobby lol.
 
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    The Jewelry of Disney's Cruella
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